Who is The Next Uber-Intellectual LDS Writer?

[Obolus]

Along with Richard Bushman, I would suggest Terryl Givens, John Tvedtnes, Denver Snuffer & Jeffrey M. Bradshaw. You can also find some great stuff from the old days by looking up books by Hyrum L. Andrus and John A. Widtsoe.

[livy111us]

I don't think there will be anybody like Nibley, but the Church has some amazing scholars. Matthew Brown, Brant Gardner, David Bokovoy, Daniel Peterson, John Sorensen, John Gee to name only a few.

[jlf9999]

Nibley was a mixed bag. Some of his work was superb, such as his essay on Christian envy of the temple.

In the introduction to section 1 of the third volume of his "The Wisdom of the Zohar", Isaiah Tishby wrote "These two tendencies: the positing of a Temple in the upper world, and interpretation of the Tabernacle, the Temple, and all their related equipment as symbols of cosmic and supernatural phenomena, are developed and expanded much further in rabbinic aggadah[3] and Christian theology[4]."

Footnote number four references H. Nibley, "Christian Envy of the Temple."

"The Wisdom of the Zohar" is an important work in the study of Jewish mysticism, and won Tishby the Bialik and Nordau Prizes.

On the other hand, Nibley's essays on Jaredites as steppe nomads are plagued by severe methodological flaws and other errors, such as the validity of a comparison between Eurasian steppe nomads, an equestrian society in a different geographic area, and ancient Mesopotamian culture, which was decidedly not equestrian.

I sat down in Deseret Books and read the chapter on the Sefer Yetzirah in "One Eternal Round." In one sitting I spotted dozens of errors.

The idea critcism of Nibley is motivated by anti-Mormonism reminds me of a Jewish comedian telling the story of how his family gathered to watch a game with the first Jewish quarterback. His uncle started yelling at the TV, "How dare he! He tackled him! That anti-Semitic @*&$#! tackled him!"

Ask any religious scholar at any traditional Christian university about Nibley or any LDS scholar for that matter and see what kind of response you get.

[volgadon]

Ask any religious scholar at any traditional Christian university about Nibley or any LDS scholar for that matter and see what kind of response you get.

Those in divinity schools that have heard of him might respond to him much the same as they would respond to any mainstream scholar. You do however seem to equate criticism of Nibley with antimormonism. I dare say that you are wrong in this.

[jlf9999]

Those in divinity schools that have heard of him might respond to him much the same as they would respond to any mainstream scholar. You do however seem to equate criticism of Nibley with antimormonism. I dare say that you are wrong in this.

Not so. Scholarly criticism is different than bigoted anti-Mormon criticism. In the first instance, the reviewer actually reads and studies the subject work and the in the other the writer never gets a fair reading. You are young my friend and hopefully you never have to face the lies, distortions, misrepresentations and prejudice many of us older members have had to live with all our lives. Bigotry is very real and suggesting it has no impact on LDS scholars is ignoring the facts. I suggest the hotbeds of anti-Mormon scholarly bias are the traditional Christian universities. If I am wrong you will be able to go to the book stores at those schools and find at least a few LDS authored scholarly works in the stacks or on at least one instructor's required reading list. I hope you can prove me wrong. I would like to be but I think I am not.

Edited April 20, 2011 by jlf9999

[Elphaba]

Bigotry is very real and suggesting it has no impact on LDS scholars is ignoring the facts. I suggest the hotbeds of anti-Mormon scholarly bias are the traditional Christian universities. If I am wrong you will be able to go to the book stores at those schools and find at least a few LDS authored scholarly works in the stacks or on at least one instructor's required reading list. I hope you can prove me wrong. I would like to be but I think I am not.

It is not volgadon's responsibility to prove you wrong. You are the one making the claim, and thus, it is your responsibility to prove it.

Please provide enough examples of LDS scholars being discriminated against, because they are LDS, and not because of genuine disagreement, to demonstrate it has the impact you claim it does.

Elphaba

[jlf9999]

It is not volgadon's responsibility to prove you wrong. You are the one making the claim, and thus, it is your responsibility to prove it.

Please provide enough examples of LDS scholars being discriminated against, because they are LDS, and not because of genuine disagreement, to demonstrate it has the impact you claim it does.

Elphaba

I went to the Notre Dame book store. ND is generally acknowledged as a liberal university. I searched under Mormon and got 419 works available through the bookstore. I looked through most of them and found NO modern LDS writers. Jan Shipps' works were there but no LDS writers since B.H. Roberts. I found multiple modern books by non-LDS writers but no one to represent current LDS thought, practice, church policy or discussions of LDS theology. However, the shelves were amply represented with works by Mormon haters. I did not find one work by a BYU professor, general authority, or authoritative LDS writer. Certainly I could have overlooked one. But among the titles of the works presented, anything that did not smack of Mormon bashing would have stood out like a sore thumb. There were some that might have approached the level of a scholarly work but without reading the book I could not tell. I think the substance of the works presented can be said to be definitive of ND's thinking. The lack of current LDS scholars and writers proves ND's anti-Mormon bias. If they are not interested in what we say about our own theology, Church and history yet have a multitude of anti-Mormon offerings, how can anyone say they are not prejudiced and that LDS scholars have been treated fairly?

Bob Jones University had three books none of which attempted to present a scholarly look at Mormonism. None were by LDS writers. However Ed Decker was represented. Yale Divinity, Northwest Nazarene, Oral Roberts and Liberty University did not have searchable book lists. Is that sufficient Elphaba?

Edited April 21, 2011 by jlf9999

[volgadon]

Not so. Scholarly criticism is different than bigoted anti-Mormon criticism. In the first instance, the reviewer actually reads and studies the subject work and the in the other the writer never gets a fair reading. You are young my friend and hopefully you never have to face the lies, distortions, misrepresentations and prejudice many of us older members have had to live with all our lives. Bigotry is very real and suggesting it has no impact on LDS scholars is ignoring the facts. I suggest the hotbeds of anti-Mormon scholarly bias are the traditional Christian universities. If I am wrong you will be able to go to the book stores at those schools and find at least a few LDS authored scholarly works in the stacks or on at least one instructor's required reading list. I hope you can prove me wrong. I would like to be but I think I am not.

No one is claiming that divinity schools don't often have an anti-Mormon bias. What I am saying is that their bigotry towards LDS scholars is no more rabid than it is towards E. P. Sanders and others of the "new perspectives on Paul" school.

Just google on the SBL being sponsored by evangelicals and you'll see that divinity school bigotry is not even primarily displayed towards LDS. These guys are of the same ilk of those who write the editor of BAR to cancel their subscription because the magazine showed a picture of a Canaanite idol.

Spare me the condescension. I may be younger than you, but I certainly haven't lived a cloistered life.

[volgadon]

I went to the Notre Dame book store. ND is generally acknowledged as a liberal university. I searched under Mormon and got 419 works available through the bookstore. I looked through most of them and found NO modern LDS writers. Jan Shipps' works were there but no LDS writers since B.H. Roberts. I found multiple modern books by non-LDS writers but no one to represent current LDS thought, practice, church policy or discussions of LDS theology. However, the shelves were amply represented with works by Mormon haters. I did not find one work by a BYU professor, general authority, or authoritative LDS writer. Certainly I could have overlooked one.

Did a search on their library catalog, they have "Rough Stone Rolling" and the anthology "Pro-Mormon writings of the twentieth century" which does contain a Hugh Nibley essay. They also have Arrington's "American Moses" and "The Mormon Experience" co-authored with Bitton. Another title I found is Wilkinson's " Brigham Young University : the first one hundred years."

It certainly appears that you overlooked one. Several, in fact.

[Elphaba]

I went to the Notre Dame book store. ND is generally acknowledged as a liberal university.

No, it’s not. It's not staunchly conservative, either, but it certainly isn't liberal. I would say it's a (good) mix of both. However, I don’t know what being liberal or conservative has to do with being anti-Mormon. The only university on the list you put together below that showed a clear anti-Mormon bias is ultra-conservative (Bob Jones University).

I searched under Mormon and got 419 works available through the bookstore.

I found 1089.

I looked through most of them and found NO modern LDS writers.

Within two minutes I found four:

Your Study of Isiah Made Easier: in the Bible and Book of Mormon, 2009, David J. Ridges

What of the Mormons. . . , Gordon B. Hinckley

Lost Legacy, Gary Smith, Winner of the Utah Mormon History Association Best Book Award, 1997

2-Hour Book of Mormon: A Book of Mormon Primer, 2000, Larry Anderson

Additionally, within a few minutes more I found books like A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by Legrand Richards and A Study of the Articles of Faith by James Talmage. Given many LDS still consider these books timely, I have no problem including the authors as semi-current.

Jan Shipps' works were there

Which is telling, given she is very positive about the Church.

but no LDS writers since B.H. Roberts.

Again, it took me minutes to find six. I quit looking after that since it was obvious you hadn't really looked very hard.

However, the shelves were amply represented with works by Mormon haters.

Oh, please. The vast majority of books were historical reproductions and therefore, of historical interest, not an indication of anti-Mormon bigotry.

I did not find one work by a BYU professor, general authority, or authoritative LDS writer. Certainly I could have overlooked one. But among the titles of the works presented, anything that did not smack of Mormon bashing would have stood out like a sore thumb.

No, it wouldn't have; rather, it would have been lost within those 1,000+ titles. But I found six within minutes.

The lack of current LDS scholars and writers proves ND's anti-Mormon bias.

The lack of a lack of current LDS scholars and writers proves ND does not have an anti-Mormon bias. All that has been proven is that it is an extremely well-stocked bookstore for a university.

Bob Jones University had three books none of which attempted to present a scholarly look at Mormonism. None were by LDS writers. However Ed Decker was represented.

Actually, it has four, but you’re right, none of them are represented by LDS writers, and Ed Decker is one of the authors. It definitely showed an anti-Mormon bias, but considering it is more of a fundamentalist religious school than an academic one (in my opinion), I’m not surprised.

Yale Divinity, Northwest Nazarene, Oral Roberts and Liberty University did not have searchable book lists.

Yes, they do, all of them. None of them sell any books about the Church. Obviously, no anti-Mormonism there.

Is that sufficient Elphaba?

Hardly. Only one university out of those, and one I consider to be more fundamentally religious than academic, showed what I would consider to be an anti-Mormon bias.

So, no, it’s not sufficient. If anything, your examples prove you wrong.

Elphaba

Edited April 21, 2011 by Elphaba

[jlf9999]

No, it’s not. It's not staunchly conservative, either, but it certainly isn't liberal. I would say it's a (good) mix of both. However, I don’t know what being liberal or conservative has to do with being anti-Mormon. The only university on the list you put together below that showed a clear anti-Mormon bias is ultra-conservative (Bob Jones University).

I found 1089.Within two minutes I found four:

Your Study of Isiah Made Easier: in the Bible and Book of Mormon, 2009, David J. Ridges

What of the Mormons. . . , Gordon B. Hinckley

Lost Legacy, Gary Smith, Winner of the Utah Mormon History Association Best Book Award, 1997

2-Hour Book of Mormon: A Book of Mormon Primer, 2000, Larry Anderson

Additionally, within a few minutes more I found books like A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by Legrand Richards and A Study of the Articles of Faith by James Talmage. Given many LDS still consider these books timely, I have no problem including the authors as semi-current.

Which is telling, given she is very positive about the Church.Again, it took me minutes to find six. I quit looking after that since it was obvious you hadn't really looked very hard.

Oh, please. The vast majority of books were historical reproductions and therefore, of historical interest, not an indication of anti-Mormon bigotry. No, it wouldn't have; rather, it would have been lost within those 1,000+ titles. But I found six within minutes. The lack of a lack of current LDS scholars and writers proves ND does not have an anti-Mormon bias. All that has been proven is that it is an extremely well-stocked bookstore for a university.Actually, it has four, but you’re right, none of them are represented by LDS writers, and Ed Decker is one of the authors. It definitely showed an anti-Mormon bias, but considering it is more of a fundamentalist religious school than an academic one (in my opinion), I’m not surprised.

Yes, they do, all of them. None of them sell any books about the Church. Obviously, no anti-Mormonism there.Hardly. Only one university out of those, and one I consider to be more fundamentally religious than academic, showed what I would consider to be an anti-Mormon bias.

So, no, it’s not sufficient. If anything, your examples prove you wrong.

Elphaba

Your insistence that there is no anti-Mormon bias in religious universities is insulting.

[volgadon]

Within two minutes I found four:

Your Study of Isiah Made Easier: in the Bible and Book of Mormon, 2009, David J. Ridges

What of the Mormons. . . , Gordon B. Hinckley

Lost Legacy, Gary Smith, Winner of the Utah Mormon History Association Best Book Award, 1997

2-Hour Book of Mormon: A Book of Mormon Primer, 2000, Larry Anderson

Additionally, within a few minutes more I found books like A Marvelous Work and a Wonder by Legrand Richards and A Study of the Articles of Faith by James Talmage. Given many LDS still consider these books timely, I have no problem including the authors as semi-current.

You can add Rough Stone Rolling and American Moses to the ND bookstore list. Found them there too. Also, the only Hugh Nibley book is his war memoirs.

[volgadon]

I also just found Terryl Givens' "By the Hand of Mormon" and 2 books by William Hamblin. We are at 12 already, and most of these are within the past 50 years.

Actually, make that 18 with 2 books by Grant Hardy, 3 by Royal Skousen and 1 by John Tvedtnes.

[jlf9999]

Let's tally the score. Elphaba says she found almost 1089 books on Mormonism and four were by recognized LDS writers. That is Mormon writers 4 and non-Mormon writers 1085. OK That surely settles that argument doesn't it? Volgadon says at least 4 too. He didn't say how many he got when he searched but if it 419 or 1089 either way, I am wrong. My friends provided evidence that saves Notre Dame's reputation as being even handed. Yep you are right. I was wrong. ND has a definite even-handed approach to LDS writers.

[volgadon]

Let's tally the score. Elphaba says she found almost 1089 books on Mormonism and four were by recognized LDS writers. That is Mormon writers 4 and non-Mormon writers 1085. OK That surely settles that argument doesn't it? Volgadon says at least 4 too. He didn't say how many he got when he searched but if it 419 or 1089 either way, I am wrong. My friends provided evidence that saves Notre Dame's reputation as being even handed. Yep you are right. I was wrong. ND has a definite even-handed approach to LDS writers.

Didn't go through the entire list. I mainly searched by individual author, but I get about 1085 for "mormon." There are multiple editions of the BoM, several LDS works of the 19th century, and books such as Motab songbooks and various Mormon historical societies.

What we did find within a few minutes is enough to show that your research was sloppy at best. ND doesn't specialise in studies of Mormonism, but it has a fairly broad selection, including both Mormon and non-Mormon works from both the 19th and 20th centuries.

[jlf9999]

Didn't go through the entire list. I mainly searched by individual author, but I get about 1085 for "mormon." There are multiple editions of the BoM, several LDS works of the 19th century, and books such as Motab songbooks and various Mormon historical societies.

What we did find within a few minutes is enough to show that your research was sloppy at best. ND doesn't specialise in studies of Mormonism, but it has a fairly broad selection, including both Mormon and non-Mormon works from both the 19th and 20th centuries.

So, the score is what? Mormon writers writing about Mormonism a dozen or so? And there are something on the order of 1080 plus or minus non-LDS writers writing on Mormonism? And the fact that an over whelming number of the works are vicious and defamatory is irrelevant to my allegation of bias. So, I can conclude that, in your mind anyway, LDS writers are adequately represented when the subject is Mormonism and there is no bias against them. Am I correct? I don't want to put words in your mouth.

Edited April 21, 2011 by jlf9999

[Elphaba]

Let's tally the score. Elphaba says she found almost 1089 books on Mormonism and four were by recognized LDS writers.

That is NOT what I said at all.

I said I found four titles within two minutes, and then two additional titles a few minutes after that. I then wrote:

I quit looking after that since it was obvious you hadn't really looked very hard.

In other words, I didn't find any others because I did not look for any others, not because they do not exist. It seemed obvious that if I found six titles within a few minutes many more existed.

I know I can be wordy, but if you're going to quote something I said in a post, please make sure you actually read it first.

Elphaba

Edited April 21, 2011 by Elphaba

[volgadon]

So, the score is what? Mormon writers writing about Mormonism are, what a dozen or so? And there are something on the order of 1080 plus or minus non-LDS writers writing on Mormonism? And the fact that an over whelming number of the works are vicious and defamatory is irrelevant to my allegation of bias. So, I can conclude that, in your mind anyway, LDS writers are adequately represented when the subject is Mormonism and there is no bias against them. Am I correct?

I'm not going to tally them all up. If you wish to do so and prove that ND is anti-Mormon, then by all means do so. You haven't even looked at most of the entires, you made several false claims as well. Things aren't looking too good for your assertions.

You shifted the goalposts. Originally, you were claiming that divinity schools were anti-Mormon because they don't sell pro-LDS books. We've shown you are wrong. Now you are going for quantity. Well, how much would be enough for you?

BYU is anti-Catholic!!! Their bookstore has only one book on Catholicism and it is not written by a Catholic and isn't supportive of their truth claims. So the score is 1-0.

ND sells books by a recent president of the church, books by an official church historian, books by BYU proffesors on LDS and non-LDS topics, and books by leading LDS scholars.

[Wingnut]

Yale Divinity, Northwest Nazarene, Oral Roberts and Liberty University did not have searchable book lists. Is that sufficient Elphaba?

Yes, they do, all of them. None of them sell any books about the Church. Obviously, no anti-Mormonism there.

Additionally, I have personally known several Mormons who have attended the Yale Divinity School, and have had zero problem with either cognitive dissonance or discrimination.

[jlf9999]

It seems we have gotten off track. I am not the subject. I went to the ND bookstore, not the library, and found 400 plus titles on Mormonism of which I found a very few were by LDS writers and an overwhelming majority by non-LDS writers. The fact that the ND bookstore believes these titles were important, current and relevant is evident by their number. The bookstore is an official organ of the university. Given the subject was "Mormon" and the bookstore stocked almost no LDS writers on the subject yet hundreds of non-LDS titles seems convincing. Add to that many, if not most, of the titles were obviously anti-Mormon makes my case stronger.

As regards the BYU bookstore, how many titles by non-Catholic writers do they offer? If the subject is important to the university then I contend the number and type of titles in the bookstore will tell us their thinking and the importance they place on the subject. The fact that the BYU Bookstore carries only one book on Catholicism tells us BYU is non-committal, if not uninterested, in Catholicism. Concerning Mormonism, ND seems to be otherwise.

The library tells the history of the subject. The bookstore tells us what current thinking is. The number of titles tells us the importance of the subject. How the subject is treated tells about bias. The writers tells us who they like.

Edited April 21, 2011 by jlf9999

[AGStacker]

Ron Paul minus the LDS.

[volgadon]

The library tells the history of the subject. The bookstore tells us what current thinking is.

Both library and bookstore carry recent titles by LDS authors supportive of LDS truth claims.

[volgadon]

If the subject is important to the university then I contend the number and type of titles in the bookstore will tell us their thinking and the importance they place on the subject.

In that case BYU is blindingly indifferent to any religion but LDS and is thoroughly self-absorbed. If you compare the number of titles dealing with LDS topics with those regarding other faiths (such as the Middle-Eastern texts project) then we are forced to reach that conclusion based on your reasoning.

[The_Phoenix]

Additionally, I have personally known several Mormons who have attended the Yale Divinity School, and have had zero problem with either cognitive dissonance or discrimination.

I have known a few that pursued higher education in religion in such schools who lost their faith over it.

[Suzie]

However there were and are some who because of their anti-Mormon bias would never think of reading any book written by a Mormon.

Really? Well, I am very sure that after making such claim, you do have some names that you can provide right? Thanks in advance.