The Affect of Anti-Mormon Propaganda

[Guest]

So are you saying that the same spirit that testified the veracity of the LDS Church (as the only True Church on the face of the Earth who posses the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ) could now (if a member runs into trouble) lead him away from it to another faith who doesn't posses the "full" truth (according to LDS beliefs)? Is that what you are saying?

I'm saying, I do not dismiss the possibility. I am not God of the Holy Ghost. He does what He knows is the best way for that person to come to God. I don't know what that is - being an armchair quarterback.

If a person honestly and sincerely seeks the path to God and the Holy Ghost leads him to the Baptist Church, I will not doubt that the Holy Ghost led him there. I don't play the "My Holy Spirit is better than your Holy Spirit" game.

[Javajot]

Prove it.

P.S. You can't find out the truth of the LDS Church without touching on Catholicism. The entire faith is founded on a Restored Gospel. You kinda have to know what it was restored from. Unless you've never studied the Great Apostasy. So yeah, I call bologna on that.

(I'll use your own words that you edited in your earlier post)

That's what YOU think sitting in your armchair, quarter-backing other peoples lives. You don't know my heart. Are you telling me that The Holy Ghost lied to me? Are you telling me that I do not have a testimony? I have a strong testimony that came All WITHOUT studying Catholicism. Nice way to call bologna.

And to use your logic:

I guess that nobody that lived before The Great Apostasy or before Catholicism came into existence could possibly have had a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel. The gospel was not restored from the Catholic church, or any other church for that matter. It was restored unto itself.

And yes, I CAN guarantee that if some one is led away from the one and only 100% true church on Earth it was not God that led them away. They were deceived.

[Guest]

Is that how you rationalize sin and personal apostasy? The scriptures are clear on the matter.

What sin?

The Baptist sinned when he said Jesus Christ is the way to God?

And you might be surprised to know that the Baptists also study the scriptures. Diligently.

[Suzie]

I'm saying, I do not dismiss the possibility. I am not God of the Holy Ghost. He does what He knows is the best way for that person to come to God. I don't know what that is - being an armchair quarterback.

If a person honestly and sincerely seeks the path to God and the Holy Ghost leads him to the Baptist Church, I will not doubt that the Holy Ghost led him there. I don't play the "My Holy Spirit is better than your Holy Spirit" game.

I see what you are saying. However, you was referring to an LDS member in your previous post so I was confused as to why the Holy Ghost would lead a member who is in trouble to another Church.

[Dravin]

So are you saying that the same spirit that testified the veracity of the LDS Church (as the only True Church on the face of the Earth who posses the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ) could now (if a member runs into trouble) lead him away from it to another faith who doesn't posses the "full" truth (according to LDS beliefs)? Is that what you are saying?

I think the answer to the question really has to do with the scenario it creates in your mind. I think the Holy Ghost will answer a question put to it in a truthful manner. For example, if someone leaves the LDS Church and then later when exploring attends a sermon on the Resurrection at a Baptist Church the Holy Ghost will testify of the truth therein contained. I know I've attended a Catholic mass before and felt the spirit during portions. I don't think the Holy Ghost would lead someone away from the Church, but if someone chooses to leave the Church I think it will testify of the truth they do find elsewhere.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Dravin

[Backroads]

Suppose a certain religion had a nugget of truth that, in the way this church presented it, made it more accessible to an individual?

I know I've had great spiritual experiences studying other faiths.

[Guest]

(I'll use your own words that you edited in your earlier post)

That's what YOU think sitting in your armchair, quarter-backing other peoples lives. You don't know my heart. Are you telling me that The Holy Ghost lied to me? Are you telling me that I do not have a testimony? I have a strong testimony that came All WITHOUT studying Catholicism. Nice way to call bologna.

And to use your logic:

I guess that nobody that lived before The Great Apostasy or before Catholicism came into existence could possibly have had a testimony of the truthfulness of the gospel. The gospel was not restored from the Catholic church, or any other church for that matter. It was restored unto itself.

And yes, I CAN guarantee that if some one is led away from the one and only 100% true church on Earth it was not God that led them away. They were deceived.

I edited it for a reason - because after I re-read it, I found it can be taken as "snarky".

No, YOU CAN'T guarantee that. You are not the Judge. God is. The ONLY judge.

Ghandi was not LDS. He was not even Christian. He studied Christianity. Diligently. Even spending time with ministers on intense Christian discussions that made people wonder if he ever became a Christian. You CAN'T guarantee that "he was led away" from the true God.

Your perspective of what is "away" is too myopic. Even the Articles of Faith doesn't support that view.

Being in a church that is 100% true doesn't mean you are 100% true. You can be only 10% true in a 100% true church because you haven't progressed enough. Being 95% true in a 75% true church may be more of a progression...

Edited April 28, 2011 by anatess

[Suzie]

Depends on the context. I think the Holy Ghost will answer a question put to it in a truthful manner. For example, if someone leaves the LDS Church and then later when exploring attends a sermon on the Resurrection at a Baptist Church the Holy Ghost will testify of truth*. I think the answer to the question really has to do with the scenario it creates in your mind.

*I've attended a Catholic Mass once and I felt the spirit there. It was when what they said coincided with truth but it was there. Just because they have X% incorrect doesn't mean the Y% that is correct won't be testified of.

I agree. The scenario in my mind was an LDS member who didn't leave his faith but merely was struggling in keeping his covenants (that's what I personally interpreted based on anatess post) and then the Holy Ghost leading him to another faith (Baptist Church) to straighten him out in whatever struggles he had.

An LDS member who cannot keep his covenants may be in a lot worse position than the Baptist who is steadily keeping the promises he made as a Baptist and progressing closer to God. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Holy Ghost leads the LDS member to the Baptist church to straighten him out before he gets himself in bigger trouble.

[Javajot]

An LDS member who cannot keep his covenants...if the Holy Ghost leads the LDS member to the Baptist church to straighten him out before he gets himself in bigger trouble.

THAT sin right there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If someone forsakes their covenants by their own choice, they have made their bed and now must lay in it. They are already in trouble and becoming a monk, catholic, JW, or anything else wont help them in any way shape or form. The Holy Ghost would not lead anyone astray.

[Guest]

I see what you are saying. However, you was referring to an LDS member in your previous post so I was confused as to why the Holy Ghost would lead a member who is in trouble to another Church.

I can definitely see that happening. This really goes back to my experiences growing up as a Catholic and my conversion to LDS.

What got me started on the investigation of LDS faith is when I asked my husband, "So, you must think I'm going to hell." And my husband answered, "No, I don't think you're going to hell. I have a greater chance of going to hell than you."

That answer surprised me. And after studying LDS - I found that statement to be true. When you make the covenants having a full testimony of it, then you break it - it is bad. God, being omniscient, may see that you cannot keep the covenants and could possibly steer you to a path where you can grow without having to make that covenant... until you are ready for it. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

My friend was born and baptized LDS but never received a testimony of the complete gospel because his dad got ex-communicated when he was 12. He is inactive. He is getting married to a Catholic (or I think she's Catholic). He is probably going to start going to the Catholic church. I see that as a good thing. It's either he goes to church - any church - or he doesn't go at all.

Not that I KNOW for sure that's what the Holy Ghost is telling my friend... I'm just saying - I can see that within the realm of possibility by what I know of God.

Edited April 28, 2011 by anatess

[Javajot]

No, YOU CAN'T guarantee that.

Yes I can.

Unless I missed the footnotes in Lehi's dream where it says:

"note: on occasion God will cause a mist of darkness to arise; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, to cause people to lose their way, that they wander off and get lost."

I must have missed that part.

[Suzie]

That answer surprised me. And after studying LDS - I found that statement to be true. When you make the covenants having a full testimony of it, then you break it - it is bad. God, being omniscient, may see that you cannot keep the covenants and could possibly steer you to a path where you can grow without having to make that covenant... until you are ready for it. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

I see now what you are saying. Interesting philosophy.

[Guest]

THAT sin right there ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

If someone forsakes their covenants by their own choice, they have made their bed and now must lay in it. They are already in trouble and becoming a monk, catholic, JW, or anything else wont help them in any way shape or form. The Holy Ghost would not lead anyone astray.

By this statement, you are telling me that a Catholic Monk does not have the Holy Spirit with him?

And may I remind you that Jesus was crucified next to another criminal who Jesus forgave - right there, on the cross - a few minutes before the criminal's death. Don't be so sure who Jesus is going to forgive.

[Dravin]

That answer surprised me. And after studying LDS - I found that statement to be true. When you make the covenants having a full testimony of it, then you break it - it is bad. God, being omniscient, may see that you cannot keep the covenants and could possibly steer you to a path where you can grow without having to make that covenant... until you are ready for it. Line upon line, precept upon precept.

Except in Suzie's scenario you've already made the covenants, going Baptist doesn't prevent you from having to make them. In a religion y-> religion x -> LDS scenario you are right in that y and x don't have you making those covenants and so can act as a time and place of preparation, but I don't think anything here has issue with that. It's a scenario of LDS -> Baptist -> LDS that is throwing people off.

Of course as I pointed out, what you mean by lead makes a big difference. If it's "Here be truth" for someone who has left the LDS Church and is now wandering around seeking something versus "Ditch that LDS stuff, embrace X religion". It's the latter, with the idea that the Holy Ghost may actively tell/lead someone to leave the LDS Church that is confusing everyone. And I must confess I'm not entirely sure which sense you mean it.

Edited April 28, 2011 by Dravin

[Guest]

Yes I can.

Unless I missed the footnotes in Lehi's dream where it says:

"note: on occasion God will cause a mist of darkness to arise; yea, even an exceedingly great mist of darkness, to cause people to lose their way, that they wander off and get lost."

I must have missed that part.

And how does that relate to the discussion?

[Dravin]

By this statement, you are telling me that a Catholic Monk does not have the Holy Spirit with him?

No, what they're saying is a member of the LDS Church can't escape that they've made covenants by becoming a different religion. A think a lot of people are reading, rightly or wrongly, a certain:

Holy Ghost: "Already made covenants? Finding the LDS Church difficult? Just become Catholic/Baptist/Whatever instead."

Edited April 28, 2011 by Dravin

[Suzie]

I don't think the Holy Ghost would lead someone away from the Church

That's exactly what we're discussing (I think) whether or not the Holy Ghost can lead someone away from the Church.

Anatess view is that if an LDS member cannot keep the covenants he has made in the Church (because he/she didn't have a full testimony of it) it is possible that the Holy Ghost can lead that person away to another Church where they can grow/progress until the person is ready to make/renew those covenants. Why can't the person make such progress within their faith? (LDS)

Interesting philosophy as I said before but not logical in my view.

[Guest]

Except in Suzie's scenario you've already made the covenants, going Baptist doesn't prevent you from having to make them. In a religion y-> religion x -> LDS scenario you are right in that y and x don't have you making those covenants and so can act as a time and place of preparation, but I don't think anything here has issue with that. It's a scenario of LDS -> Baptist -> LDS that is throwing people off.

Of course as I pointed out, what you mean by lead makes a big difference. If it's "Here be truth" for someone who has left the LDS Church and is now wandering around seeking something versus "Ditch that LDS stuff, embrace X religion". It's the latter, with the idea that the Holy Ghost may actively tell/lead someone to leave the LDS Church that is confusing everyone. And I must confess I'm not entirely what sure which sense you mean it.

Dravin... this is always the problem I have with a lot of LDS people... it is the same problem I have with a lot of Catholics.

They get stuck on the "One True Church" claim that they pin the Holy Ghost down to that. So that, if somebody claims - "I read the Book of Mormon and I felt nothing"... the LDS immediately say - "You didn't pray right" or "You don't know how to feel the Spirit"...

Or if somebody claims "I didn't feel right about that Eucharistic Celebration having the piece of bread become Christ's Body", a Catholic immediately says - you did not seek out the Holy Spirit!

It's like a game they play - Your Holy Spirit is a deceiver because you didn't get the same answer I got!

I say no. I say - I don't know how the Holy Spirit works in every individual. I have a completely different journey than my husband, than my Catholic mother, than my Baptist friend, than my Born Again cousin... All of us - and I know this for sure - seeking and praying diligently the path to God!

So that - if they say the Holy Spirit told me this. I say. Okay. As long as you're seeking and praying diligently. Even if it was from LDS to Baptist back to LDS or whatever journey yours comes out to be.

[Dravin]

That's exactly what we're discussing (I think) whether or not the Holy Ghost can lead someone away from the Church.

I'm honestly not sure either (of the topic).

These scenarios work for me:

1) Before becoming LDS the Holy Ghost leads them through other churches to prepare them for becoming LDS. Like say an athiest who gains their testimony of Christ as a Catholic and is now prepared to hear the missionaries or what have you.

2) Someone who is/was LDS having abandoned what they believe show up at a different Church and feel the spirit there.

This one is the one that I'm not understanding:

3) Person is LDS, the Holy Ghost leads them away from the Church and then... well, pretty much any way you can finish off this scenario.

[Soulsearcher]

That's exactly what we're discussing (I think) whether or not the Holy Ghost can lead someone away from the Church.

Anatess view is that if an LDS member cannot keep the covenants he has made in the Church (because he/she didn't have a full testimony of it) it is possible that the Holy Ghost can lead that person away to another Church where they can grow/progress until the person is ready to make/renew those covenants. Why can't the person make such progress within their faith? (LDS)

Interesting philosophy as I said before but not logical in my view.

If you don't think the Catholic church is true, why can't you just try to make progress in the Catholic church rather than the LDS church? The perspective is skewed because you view it from the perspective of a committed believer. If a person doesn't have a testimony of the church being true yes they could stay but would they really get anything out of it if they never believed vs finding something they do believe?

[Guest]

That's exactly what we're discussing (I think) whether or not the Holy Ghost can lead someone away from the Church.

Anatess view is that if an LDS member cannot keep the covenants he has made in the Church (because he/she didn't have a full testimony of it) it is possible that the Holy Ghost can lead that person away to another Church where they can grow/progress until the person is ready to make/renew those covenants. Why can't the person make such progress within their faith? (LDS)

Interesting philosophy as I said before but not logical in my view.

Very logical to me when I look at my friend whose dad got ex'd. You have to remember - the church is 100% true. The people running it/are in it are human. It's not perfect. The Holy 'Spirit has to work through these weaknesses.

[Guest]

No, what they're saying is a member of the LDS Church can't escape that they've made covenants by becoming a different religion. A think a lot of people are reading, rightly or wrongly, a certain:

Holy Ghost: "Already made covenants? Finding the LDS Church difficult? Just become Catholic/Baptist/Whatever instead."

Everything is a progression. You can't make more covenants unless you've made others. You can't get endowments unless you've been baptized. So you got baptized. You are failing. You can't move forward to get endowments...

See what I'm saying?

[Dravin]

They get stuck on the "One True Church" claim that they pin the Holy Ghost down to that. So that, if somebody claims - "I read the Book of Mormon and I felt nothing"... the LDS immediately say - "You didn't pray right" or "You don't know how to feel the Spirit"...

Or they aren't prepared to receive an answer for what ever reason, but that isn't the same thing you are proposing. Anatess you are proposing the Holy Ghost leads a member to abandon their covenants. I don't accept that.

[Guest]

Or they aren't prepared to receive an answer for what ever reason, but that isn't the same thing you are proposing. Anatess you are proposing the Holy Ghost leads a member to abandon their covenants. I don't accept that.

See above.

[Dravin]

See above.

I saw it. People will find various routes in life to their destination, and it may be the only route that works for them. I still do not believe that the Holy Ghost will tell someone to abandon their covenants. Once they abandon them he may take a circuitous route in leading them back, but that isn't the same as you propose.