Any LDS Professors Here?

[jlf9999]

I engaged a few folks here in a discussion about whether LDS writers and scholars are discriminated against in the academic world because of their religion. I think I made my point convincingly, however I would like to hear from some legitimate scholars. That is, people who write and publish as a part of their job as an academic. Have you been discriminated against because you are LDS or do you know of another scholar who has been? If so, are you willing to tell us about it? Your place of employment is not important.

Edited April 22, 2011 by jlf9999

[miztrniceguy]

Will their place of employment be kept confidential?

[Elphaba]

I engaged a few folks here in a discussion about whether LDS writers and scholars are discriminated against in the academic world because of their religion. I think I made my point convincingly,

No, you didn't.

however I would like to hear from some legitimate scholars. That is, people who write and publish as a part of their job as an academic. Have you been discriminated against because you are LDS or do you know of another scholar who has been? If so, are you willing to tell us about it? Your place of employment is not important.

You might want to ask this question over at the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board. There is at least one BYU professor who posts there regularly, and a few others who post often.

Also, you say it doesn't matter where they are employed, yet the title of your thread specifically asks for BYU professors. I know of one regular here who is a professor (mormonmusic), though I don't know if he publishes. I also think dahlia is a professor, and there may be others. However, none of them teach at BYU, so they wouldn't realize they might be included in your query. I suggest you ask a mod to change the title of your thread to some sort of wording that includes professors from any institution. That way you'd catch anyone here who fits your criteria.

Elphaba

[jlf9999]

Will their place of employment be kept confidential?

The issue is whether LDS writers and scholars have been discriminated against because of their religion. If an LDS scholar can provide some evidence of that there are many of us who would like to know about it. If there is some reason to keep their institution private I have no problem with that. It would be better if we knew but it isn't necessary.

[jlf9999]

No, you didn't. You might want to ask this question over at the Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board. There is at least one BYU professor who posts there regularly, and a few others who post often.

Also, you say it doesn't matter where they are employed, yet the title of your thread specifically asks for BYU professors. I know of one regular here who is a professor (mormonmusic), though I don't know if he publishes. I also think dahlia is a professor, and there may be others. However, none of them teach at BYU, so they wouldn't realize they might be included in your query. I suggest you ask a mod to change the title of your thread to some sort of wording that includes professors from any institution. That way you'd catch anyone here who fits your criteria.

Elphaba

Not to get too far into the weeds but the last line of my post is "Your place of employment is not important."

[Elphaba]

Not to get too far into the weeds but the last line of my post is "Your place of employment is not important."

I know that. That was my point. Your title only asks for people who teach at BYU, and thus, people who would be included in your survey might ignore your thread entirely because it looks like you're only asking for input from people who teach at BYU.

That's why I suggested you see if a mod would change the title for you. That way your thread wouldn't be ignored by someone who has something relevant to say with regard to your question.

Elphaba

[jlf9999]

I know that. That was my point. Your title only asks for people who teach at BYU, and thus, people who would be included in your survey might ignore your thread entirely because it looks like you're only asking for input from people who teach at BYU.

That's why I suggested you see if a mod would change the title for you. That way your thread wouldn't be ignored by someone who has something relevant to say with regard to your question.

Elphaba

I recognized that but was too dumb to know how to edit the title - so the tag line. Not very effective so far though was it?

[Elphaba]

I recognized that but was too dumb to know how to edit the title - so the tag line. Not very effective so far though was it?

You can't edit it. Only a mod can. If you want to change it contact Pam. I'm sure she'd be glad to do it for you.

Elphaba

[slamjet]

The issue is whether LDS writers and scholars have been discriminated against because of their religion. If an LDS scholar can provide some evidence of that there are many of us who would like to know about it.

I would think that if they are, telling us about it would do nothing to help, but may hurt their situation by being labeled as a whiner. In any case, if you get the desired information, what will you do with it?

[Dravin]

Changed the title to better reflect what you are seeking.

[jlf9999]

Changed the title to better reflect what you are seeking.

I am thinking about re-thinking every thing I have thought about you. Thenk yew!

[Suzie]

think I made my point convincingly

Hmmm sorry but you did not. I just posted in the other thread asking for names (since you made a claim). Searching online libraries and seeing how many LDS books are out there and from that fact, assume some sort of anti-Mormon sentiment* isn't what I could call "making a point convincingly". Far from that. Now if you provide names, etc then we could start looking.

*I believe some members of the Church really have a persecution complex at times.

[jlf9999]

Hmmm sorry but you did not. I just posted in the other thread asking for names (since you made a claim). Searching online libraries and seeing how many LDS books are out there and from that fact, assume some sort of anti-Mormon sentiment* isn't what I could call "making a point convincingly". Far from that. Now if you provide names, etc then we could start looking.

*I believe some members of the Church really have a persecution complex at times.

The point is to look at college bookstores not libraries. History is different from current thinking which bookstores represent. Libraries are collections of what people donate or what thinking was in the past. Libraries represent a different time and different thinking. Librarians have a different mindset. A college administration's mindset is better represented in the bookstore. The number of titles tells us the importance of the subject matter. The writers of these titles tell us who the administration likes. The manner in which the titles present the subject tells us what the administrators believe is important and accurate.

I used Notre Dame university as my example. I found 419 titles when I searched for Mormon. It makes sense that if you want to know about Mormons you would certainly ask a few. Well, few is the operative word in this case - very few. My search found four LDS writers and none were recent. A couple of other commenters say there are more but not many. The point is not whether it 4 or 12, it is the number of LDS versus non-LDS authors. Apparently, ND thinks 400 non-LDS writers know more about us than we do. That could be accurate depending on how the subject is treated. If these were all peer reviewed scholarly works that would be one thing. However, the titles on the ND bookstore site are not all peer reviewed scholarly works. They are, principly, your typical garden variety anti-Mormon propaganda hit pieces. The fact that there are 400 or so of them indicates the importance the university places on the subject. The book content is evidence of the administrations thinking. If the administration thinks the content is wrong, ill advised or unfair do you suppose they would allocate so much shelf space to them? If they thought LDS writers had important things to contribute to the subject would they not have more scholarly LDS titles?

I have not made an exhaustive effort to research important universities to make my point. I think I did that well enough for conversations sake here. However, for some, it seems that nothing short of such an exhaustive project would be sufficient. That is not going to happen. I made an observation, I provided a well respected university as my example and I made my point. Maybe others disagree. I can live with that.

Edited April 23, 2011 by jlf9999

[Suzie]

The point is to look at college bookstores not libraries. History is different from current thinking which bookstores represent.

The point is to provide the names of authors that you think will never read an LDS writer's work because of their anti-Mormon bias.

[jlf9999]

The point is to provide the names of authors that you think will never read an LDS writer's work because of their anti-Mormon bias.

I beg to differ. I made my point. Go back and re-read my posting about why. If you disagree OK. I can live with your disappointment.

[Suzie]

I beg to differ. I made my point. Go back and re-read my posting about why. If you disagree OK. I can live with your disappointment.

Oh well, then I have to take it as you have no back up data to support your claim.

Moving on.

[dahlia]

What is the point of this? I am published in my field, which has nothing to do with religion. No one who doesn't know me personally (and few of them) would know my religion, nor do I have a need to tell them. So, it could be that the editor-in-chief of my field's primary journal hates Mormons, but as long as my work is peer-reviewed and accepted for publication, my religion is never brought up. Why should it be?

I would think that many LDS scholars are working in fields that have nothing to do with their religion, therefore, claiming that there are few LDS intellectuals getting published or whatever, makes little sense. I happen to be in a ward full of academics and MDs doing fellowships, residencies, etc. Certainly for the graduate students, and to a lesser extent, for the medical folks, publishing is expected. So, there are Mormons publishing in their fields all over the place - but of course there is no indication that they are Mormon. I don't see any bias against Mormons in this type of publishing.

You may want to reframe your question. As it stands, perhaps it is too broad.

[jlf9999]

What is the point of this? I am published in my field, which has nothing to do with religion. No one who doesn't know me personally (and few of them) would know my religion, nor do I have a need to tell them. So, it could be that the editor-in-chief of my field's primary journal hates Mormons, but as long as my work is peer-reviewed and accepted for publication, my religion is never brought up. Why should it be?

I would think that many LDS scholars are working in fields that have nothing to do with their religion, therefore, claiming that there are few LDS intellectuals getting published or whatever, makes little sense. I happen to be in a ward full of academics and MDs doing fellowships, residencies, etc. Certainly for the graduate students, and to a lesser extent, for the medical folks, publishing is expected. So, there are Mormons publishing in their fields all over the place - but of course there is no indication that they are Mormon. I don't see any bias against Mormons in this type of publishing.

You may want to reframe your question. As it stands, perhaps it is too broad.

My premise was based on searching the search term Mormon.

[slamjet]

What is the point of this?

Victim complex.

[jlf9999]

Sorry folks.

I guess I lost my previous post that went into detail. My fault.

Here it is again: I went to the Notre Dame university bookstore website and entered the search term Mormon. I got 419 results. Most could only be described as anti-Mormon. They were the typical anti-Mormon junk we see a lot of. I did a quick search of the books looking for the writers and I found four who were recognized LDS writers but none were recent. B.H. Roberts was represented in two of them. One or two other commenters say they found more but not many - half a dozen maybe.

I contend the number of titles sold by the bookstore, not merely found in the library, indicate the interest level and importance of the subject to the university. The way the writers of these books treat the subject tells us how the administration views the subject. That is, they will devote shelf space to works they believe are important, honest, fair, accurate and comport to their thinking on the matter.

The paucity of titles by LDS scholars tells us they do not respect what LDS writers have to say about Mormons, a subject LDS writers in all likelihood know more about that non-LDS writers. That would be different if the titles on hand were scholarly, peer reviewed and honest. They are not. They are primarily the garden variety anti-Mormon hit pieces by the same people we see over and over again trashing the church.

One commenter suggests the university library is an important place to search too. I suggest it is not. Libraries are about history, are operated differently and have different goals and objectives. Librarians take pride in providing a more complete set of titles. University administrators have a particular agenda.

Another commenter said the BYU bookstore had but one title on Catholicism and by my standard was biased against Catholics. I suggest the single title means BYU is essentially not interested in Catholicism. If BYU administrators had a Catholic agenda (pro or con) the bookstore would have more titles available. Given they offer the one, there can be only one conclusion.

Now, for those folks who think I have an anti-Catholic agenda, let me say that is not the case. I used ND because of its reputation as a world class Christian institution and had the only bookstore I could search. Some commenters say I must conduct a wider search to make my point. They think my data is invalid because of the limited breadth and depth. If I was doing a college paper they would be correct. I am not. My intent is just to spark a conversation. I make the point that LDS writers are given short shrift , that I believe it is because of their religious beliefs and that ND is a classic case of one school where that occurs. I believe bias is worse at other more conservative Christian universities. I think if I could do a similar search of their bookstores I would find even more egregious results.

Another commenter suggests I have a persecution complex. I thank her for her studied comment but remind her that even paranoid people have enemies. (A little humor there)

Edited April 23, 2011 by jlf9999

[Dravin]

My premise was based on searching the search term Mormon.

Her point is that Brother X's Eutrophication in Alpine Lakes or Sister Y's Implication of Networking Websites on Adolescent Socialization is not going to be attached to the fact they are Mormon. A reviewer, unless they are personally familiar with the author(s)* is not going to be aware of their religion and as such won't be able to discriminate against them. Nor is the search term Mormon going to turn up such articles.

There may also be a bit of a language barrier as to an academic to publish is not primarily an endeavor of books (though it certainly includes that), but is predominately articles. If you ask an academic if they are published they will include articles and say they are published even if they don't have a single book to their name. Now if we limit things just to books your methodology still has the same significant flaw, namely that Brother Zs book on Shakespeare is not going to turn up in a search using the term Mormon. Though I will grant a fully published book may disclose religion as they, in general, tend to contain more biographical information.

* Though I suppose being associated with BYU, BYU-I, or BYU-H could let one make assumptions.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Dravin

[Suzie]

Sorry folks.

I guess I lost my previous post that went into detail. My fault.

Here it is again: I went to the Notre Dame university bookstore website and entered the search term Mormon. I got 419 results

Interesting. I got 1088. Would you mind providing the exact link?

[slamjet]

I'm still trying to figure out how the campus bookstore reflects the general consensus from the different departments and research? Plus, didn't Dahlia just say that when research papers are done, they don't tag their name with "Mormon," "Catholic," "Jewish," or "Protestant?" At least the ones I've read are not so.

For instance, There is a person I know who has done astronomical research into the solar system including ring systems and the planet Neptune. He was involved in the exploration to eight of the planets from Mariner to Cassini. He doesn't push his LDS membership even though it's in his NASA bio. Was he dealt harshly because of it? The span and milestones in his career would say otherwise.

So your premiss is starting from an extremely narrow and shaky foundation. If you want to get your answer, you first need to make a list of all the LDS folks in all, or even pick one field of study. Then see what papers of theirs have been peer reviewed and accepted or rejected. I think you'll find that your hypothesis is unsupportable.

And I'm a guy, not a lady. A quick click to my profile would have given that information.

[Dravin]

Interesting. I got 1088. Would you mind providing the exact link?

I'm curious how he's controlling for a potential disparity in 'wild' book populations to draw from. It's possible that (made up numbers for illustration alert) 20% of all significant positive LDS themed books (or books by famous LDS authors) are included in the Book Store but only 5% of LDS themed con books (or LDS themed books by non-LDS authors) available.

* I'm not entirely sure what his argument is. If it is, X LDS authors versus Y non-LDS authors on LDS themes means bias, or X favorable works versus Y unfavorable works on LDS themes means bias. I'm kinda curious how he's establishing either of those. While some LDS authors are famous and thus easily recognizable, not all LDS authors are famous. So he's potentially discounting LDS authored works because he isn't familiar with the religion of the author. If the second case you run into the issue of judging a book by the title. Which while some may seem obvious, he may be misclassifying a work with a provocative title that may actually be pro or neutral as opposed to the assumed con. There may also be some of the reverse going on.

Edited April 23, 2011 by Dravin

[prisonchaplain]

There was a recent story (from Drudge, I believe) of a professor who was denied tenure, at least in part, because he was perceived as being "evangelical-like." The underlying assumption was that he was a creationist, and could not maintain scientific objectivity. I believe got a couple hundred grand settlement, since there was email documentation, and, ironically, the guy was a theistic evolutionist (i.e. not a Young Earth Creationist, nor even an Intelligent Design advocate).

University of Kentucky, Professor Settle Religious Bias Job Claim

Edited April 23, 2011 by prisonchaplain
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