re: A New Kind of Evangelical...LDS may like him

[Traveler]

All right, Traveler.

I'll bite. You say it's an interesting 'interpretation of scripture'.

Can you quote scripture as I did to prove what you believe? I wasn't quoting the Flood as a means to show that God sent people to Hell - Merely that he can feel sorrow.

If you'd like, I can quote more scriptures where God feels sorrow? I don't feel I have to, though, so I would love to hear your scripture that justifies what you believe? Heck - I only gave about a half dozen scriptures that flat out said Hell existed and was eternal. If you can give me the same amount that says Hell isn't eternal, that would be great.

Let me use simple logic - very simple. The word "gospel" is used often in scripture and it means "good news". The only charge I know given to man is to preach the gospel. If anyone can explain how the doctrine of a hell where it is possible that even one soul is punished that has accepted Jesus as L-rd and who desires to be in heaven and with all the desire of their heart does desire to be in heaven is good news I would wonder about your understanding of good news.

The word hell means death and what we are to understand is that the second death is not physical death because all will be resurrected. The second death (hell) therefore is spiritual death which is a permeate separation from G-d. But (again simple logic) if someone is spiritually dead and separated from G-d then G-d cannot be their G-d.

So there is a conflict. Anyone that accepts Jesus as L-rd cannot be in hell. It is a conflict of justice and a conflict of mercy - even if they are full of sin and refuse to repent of some sin - be it minor or major. If G-d is their G-d they cannot by the very definition of spiritual death suffer the second death and suffer in hell. This is very plain in scripture.

What I want to make clear is that only those that want to be in hell will be there and they will only be there as long as they want to be there. That does not mean that hell will be empty and it does not mean that no one will be in hell forever. What I understand is that if someone chooses between good and evil in full knowledge of good and evil - there will never be any logic or reason for that choice to ever change.

If someone says they know the difference between good and evil and they sin? How can they be forgiven? How can repentance have any meaning? How can they come to understand something after they made the choice? In this life we live by faith. That is why we can repent.

LDS doctrine is that the sons of perdition choose evil in full knowledge of what they were doing. Thus they can only become sons of perdition on purpose and by their desire - which is that G-d no longer be their G-d. And so we all have the judgment of G-d according to our desire. (See Alma 41:5, D&C 11:17 and D&C 137:9)

The Traveler

[FunkyTown]

Logic! All right, I can work with what you're giving me.

However, I'd like to ask some questions:

1) What is the light of Christ?

And;

2) Does the light of Christ strive with those who are in Outer Darkness?

Let me use simple logic - very simple. The word "gospel" is used often in scripture and it means "good news". The only charge I know given to man is to preach the gospel. If anyone can explain how the doctrine of a hell where it is possible that even one soul is punished that has accepted Jesus as L-rd and who desires to be in heaven and with all the desire of their heart does desire to be in heaven is good news I would wonder about your understanding of good news.

The word hell means death and what we are to understand is that the second death is not physical death because all will be resurrected. The second death (hell) therefore is spiritual death which is a permeate separation from G-d. But (again simple logic) if someone is spiritually dead and separated from G-d then G-d cannot be their G-d.

So there is a conflict. Anyone that accepts Jesus as L-rd cannot be in hell. It is a conflict of justice and a conflict of mercy - even if they are full of sin and refuse to repent of some sin - be it minor or major. If G-d is their G-d they cannot by the very definition of spiritual death suffer the second death and suffer in hell. This is very plain in scripture.

What I want to make clear is that only those that want to be in hell will be there and they will only be there as long as they want to be there. That does not mean that hell will be empty and it does not mean that no one will be in hell forever. What I understand is that if someone chooses between good and evil in full knowledge of good and evil - there will never be any logic or reason for that choice to ever change.

If someone says they know the difference between good and evil and they sin? How can they be forgiven? How can repentance have any meaning? How can they come to understand something after they made the choice? In this life we live by faith. That is why we can repent.

LDS doctrine is that the sons of perdition choose evil in full knowledge of what they were doing. Thus they can only become sons of perdition on purpose and by their desire - which is that G-d no longer be their G-d. And so we all have the judgment of G-d according to our desire. (See Alma 41:5, D&C 11:17 and D&C 137:9)

The Traveler

[spamlds]

I'll be impressed with Bell if he figures out where the keys of the kingdom are today. That's always the sticking point...

[prisonchaplain]

I think Bell would say that we will all eventually find those keys...it just may take some longer than others. Further, he argues that God always gets what he wants, and he wants all of us to be saved...so we'll all end up in what you would call the Celestial Kingdom. I may be surmizing too much, but that's how I read him.

[Traveler]

Logic! All right, I can work with what you're giving me.

However, I'd like to ask some questions:

1) What is the light of Christ?

And;

2) Does the light of Christ strive with those who are in Outer Darkness?

1. The light of Christ is the essence and purpose of creation and the means by which light is separated from darkness - the first labor of creation. It is the light of Christ that is the Chiasm by which creation starts and the final judgment concludes. The short concept is that the light of Christ is our conscience - propensity to good and G-dly things. Thus the plan of salvation is the completion of creation to separate light from darkness

2. I believe that meaning of outer darkness is understood to be that which is separate from the light - or as you say the light of Christ. So the light of Christ is not in outer darkness - in fact there can be no darkness where there is light.

The Traveler

[spamlds]

I think Bell would say that we will all eventually find those keys...it just may take some longer than others. Further, he argues that God always gets what he wants, and he wants all of us to be saved...so we'll all end up in what you would call the Celestial Kingdom. I may be surmizing too much, but that's how I read him.

Respectfully, your comment demonstrates a complete misunderstanding of what the keys of the kingdom are. That's not surprising. Not enough latter-day saints understand them.

The keys of the kingdom are the power to direct the work of salvation on earth. It is authority, permission, consent, and the delegation from God himself to build up the kingdom that the prophet Daniel says will be presented to Jesus when he returns (See Daniel 7).

The keys bind on earth and bind in heaven. Jesus said they include power to remit sins and retain them. They were given to Peter and the Twelve. They are the defining authority of the apostles themselves. Without the keys, no earthly ordinance is valid. With the keys, earthly agents exercise heaven's power legitimately. Those who act without those keys use God's name in vain.

The Book of Acts reveals a divine pattern. When people were touched by the Spirit of God or when a vision or revelation was given, in every case, the potential converts were sent to someone who held priesthood authority or keys. Cornelius had to send for Peter, who commanded him to be baptized. Philip was directed to the eunuch who read Isaiah. Philip baptized him by authority. Saul was blinded after his vision and Ananias was dispatched to heal him and baptize him.

In every case, God honors the authority he has given his servants and the Holy Ghost sends converts to them (or them to the converts) to perform valid gospel ordinances for the remission of sins.

These keys are present and active in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in the same manner that they were in the Church of the former-day saints.

[FunkyTown]

1. The light of Christ is the essence and purpose of creation and the means by which light is separated from darkness - the first labor of creation. It is the light of Christ that is the Chiasm by which creation starts and the final judgment concludes. The short concept is that the light of Christ is our conscience - propensity to good and G-dly things. Thus the plan of salvation is the completion of creation to separate light from darkness

2. I believe that meaning of outer darkness is understood to be that which is separate from the light - or as you say the light of Christ. So the light of Christ is not in outer darkness - in fact there can be no darkness where there is light.

The Traveler

Perfect!

Then let's continue along this line:

What is repentance?

[Traveler]

Perfect!

Then let's continue along this line:

What is repentance?

It is the process of changing one's mind and heart. To follow our line of discussion it is the identification and recognition of light and a desire to draw closer to the light. Thus I believe repentance is initiated with inward desire.

The Traveler

[FunkyTown]

It is the process of changing one's mind and heart. To follow our line of discussion it is the identification and recognition of light and a desire to draw closer to the light. Thus I believe repentance is initiated with inward desire.

The Traveler

That's perfect!

Earlier, you stated that the light of Christ(Which is our conscience) doesn't reach those in Outer Darkness.

This would mean, in order for them to come back, would require one of two things:

1) God brings those who are unrepentant sinners in to his light. Please go to lds.org and search out 'Repent', or pick up a copy of Gospel Fundamentals. Chapter 14.

Our Father in Heaven does not sin, and He does not allow people who sin to live with Him. To live with Him we must repent of our sins. To repent means to feel sorry for our sins and stop doing them.

If you are in Outer Darkness, according to your very definition of the Light of Christ, they are not only unwilling to repent at this point, but completely unable.

2) God send the Saviour out to Outer Darkness to bring light to those people. Meaning that Outer Darkness is actually not so dark. This would give them brief flashes of conscience and light. I would point out lds.org's very fine description of Outer Darkness:

Hell

The doctrine is clear, Traveler. Everything from ancient to modern doctrine speaks of Hell as eternal. In fact, there is very little as clear and unambiguous as this. This is not something I relish saying. I'm not trying to be proven right in this. I hate Hell. It scares me more than anything else in the world. I love the LDS faith as it suggests that up until the final judgment, there is a real chance for everyone. This means those who died in the confusion that is this world have another chance - That God will give them, like doubting Thomas, proof to let them make a decision. What the long term consequences of being those doubting Thomases who needed proof before they believed is, I don't know. I can't imagine it being spiritually healthy, but I obviously recognize God is the final arbiter of that.

PrisonChaplain is correct in this. While he might call it Hell instead of Outer Darkness, and his might(I stress might) be filled with more brimstone and fire, what he is saying agrees with scripture.

I'd like to leave one last thing with you:

2 Nephi 28:9

And there shall also be many which shall say: Eat, drink, and be merry; nevertheless, fear God—he will justify in committing a little sin; yea, lie a little, take the advantage of one because of his words, dig a pit for thy neighbor; there is no harm in this; and do all these things, for tomorrow we die; and if it so be that we are guilty, God will beat us with a few stripes, and at last we shall be saved in the kingdom of God.

Yea, and there shall be many which shall teach after this manner, false and vain and foolish doctrines, and shall be puffed up in their hearts, and shall seek deep to hide their counsels from the Lord; and their works shall be in the dark.

While you haven't taken the logical step that sinning is fine, because everyone shall in the end be saved, you are one half of a doctrine that is specifically told to us as being false, vain and foolish. Traveler - I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, but this is no simple interpretation of scripture: Scripture, modern and ancient, and prophets, modern and ancient all agree with PC and I.

I'm sorry if I'm being very direct in this. I wouldn't in any case where I think there is wiggle room. To let something be preached that is very contrary to the will of God would be to let his plain words be twisted. That's something we can't allow. Personal doctrines cannot be allowed to override the direct words of God.

[Traveler]

That's perfect!

Earlier, you stated that the light of Christ(Which is our conscience) doesn't reach those in Outer Darkness.

This would mean, in order for them to come back, would require one of two things:

1) God brings those who are unrepentant sinners in to his light. Please go to lds.org and search out 'Repent', or pick up a copy of Gospel Fundamentals. Chapter 14.

If you are in Outer Darkness, according to your very definition of the Light of Christ, they are not only unwilling to repent at this point, but completely unable.

2) God send the Saviour out to Outer Darkness to bring light to those people. Meaning that Outer Darkness is actually not so dark. This would give them brief flashes of conscience and light. I would point out lds.org's very fine description of Outer Darkness:

Hell

The doctrine is clear, Traveler. Everything from ancient to modern doctrine speaks of Hell as eternal. In fact, there is very little as clear and unambiguous as this. This is not something I relish saying. I'm not trying to be proven right in this. I hate Hell. It scares me more than anything else in the world. I love the LDS faith as it suggests that up until the final judgment, there is a real chance for everyone. This means those who died in the confusion that is this world have another chance - That God will give them, like doubting Thomas, proof to let them make a decision. What the long term consequences of being those doubting Thomases who needed proof before they believed is, I don't know. I can't imagine it being spiritually healthy, but I obviously recognize God is the final arbiter of that.

PrisonChaplain is correct in this. While he might call it Hell instead of Outer Darkness, and his might(I stress might) be filled with more brimstone and fire, what he is saying agrees with scripture.

I'd like to leave one last thing with you:

2 Nephi 28:9

While you haven't taken the logical step that sinning is fine, because everyone shall in the end be saved, you are one half of a doctrine that is specifically told to us as being false, vain and foolish. Traveler - I have a tremendous amount of respect for you, but this is no simple interpretation of scripture: Scripture, modern and ancient, and prophets, modern and ancient all agree with PC and I.

I'm sorry if I'm being very direct in this. I wouldn't in any case where I think there is wiggle room. To let something be preached that is very contrary to the will of God would be to let his plain words be twisted. That's something we can't allow. Personal doctrines cannot be allowed to override the direct words of God.

Thank you for your post. I would like to clarify a number of things. I have never suggested that sinning is okay. Those that choose to sin are of necessity separated from light - that includes the light of Christ. However, there is a very important principle at play. That principle is what LDS call “agency”.

Agency means that G-d grants unto man (as a free gift) full power to determine their destiny (rewards and punishments). Part of the power of agency requires “knowledge” of good and evil. We learn from Genesis and the spiritual symbolism of the Eden epoch that man had to fall by making a choice to gain knowledge of good and evil. The agency to choose between good and evil is the single most important doctrine of the fall and all other doctrines concerning the fall revolve around that understanding of agency - and this includes the atonement and interceding of Christ.

Because of the fall man in placed in a fallen state where we are separated from the light of the Father but granted the light of Christ. Because we live in a state where knowledge of consequences is not known before we engage in either the good things inspired by the light of Christ or the evil things inspired by the darkness of sin we can experience both the light of Christ and the darkness of Satan without being forever bound to either. Keep in mind that Satan is the prince of darkness. In this manner all sin and fall short of the glory and light of G-d and at the same time; through sin we can temporally taste the bitterness of hell but we can also have feelings of good (repentance) drawing us at times into light. Because of the interceding of Christ we can experience good.

Now the very important part - the agency granted to man. All the way up to what is called the final judgment man’s agency allows his to choose. Why is there a point where the choice ends? What is the great difference? If the difference is some arbitrary point where G-d punishes ignorant sin then agency is denied. But if the reason is - that man comes to full knowledge of good and evil and in such knowledge makes a choice - then man indeed is granted agency to choose between good and evil having obtained knowledge. But there is a caveat in the choice between good and evil.

The choice of good requires that man also chooses to rid themselves of all sin - this is done by repentance. So in truth in order to choose good man must also choose to forever withdraw from evil. For many that is more than difficult - it is impossible because they desire some evil. There are things about certain sins that they have great desire for and want dearly; even more than good.

There is also a choice of evil that requires that man also chooses to rid themselves of all light. This is done by turning away from or refusing to repent. So in truth in order to choose evil man must also choose to forever withdraw from good (light of Christ).

This all makes the final judgment both simple to understand the justice of it all as well as the eternal principle that man has agency and man does choose his destiny. It is very important to understand that man chooses - for this is part of the light of Christ - to protect man’s agency.

But there is another doctrine. This doctrine teaches that it is good and light (light which is really darkness) that G-d deprives man of agency to choose but rather G-d chooses for man the destiny of each man and thus it is G-d that determines man’s reward or punishment. LDS are given to understand that was Satan’s plan from the beginning. That men not have agency but rather G-d (Satan) chooses and determines - not man - at a final judgment to which he (Satan) is responsible and takes all the glory of G-d determining rewards and punishments according to his judgment.

Thus it is that the war that began in heaven is concluded at what is called the final judgment where each of us will choose by our agency and desire our G-d for eternity.

The Traveler

[FunkyTown]

There are a couple of things I should point out:

1) If you believe in a final judgment, then regardless of who makes that choice at the end, there will be no repentance after that. Therefore, you are agreeing that there is an eternal Hell. You're just changing the judge from what I and PC believe.

2) Man does have agency. Agency to choose. This much is true.

Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3 Lesson 8: The Resurrection and Judgment

That's straight from LDS.org, quoting the Aaronic Priesthood manual. The savior is the final judge. I'll quote the relevant part here.

Point out that the Savior will conduct the final judgment and that it will be absolutely fair and just. If we are keeping the commandments and living in harmony with the Spirit, we can look forward to it with confidence.

I understand what you're saying, but I've quoted scripture here. I appreciate what your point of view is, but you have to understand that it's not in keeping with what scripture or modern and ancient prophets have said.

There are only two possible answers to this:

The first is that scripture, modern and ancient prophets are wrong.

The second is that you are wrong.

In the past, I have been pretty confrontational. I don't want to be about this because it's not something I relish debating. This is the most frightening concept I can think of. We can not, however, try to put our own spin on scripture. Therein lies apostasy, usually for the best of intentions.

Thank you for your post. I would like to clarify a number of things. I have never suggested that sinning is okay. Those that choose to sin are of necessity separated from light - that includes the light of Christ. However, there is a very important principle at play. That principle is what LDS call “agency”.

Agency means that G-d grants unto man (as a free gift) full power to determine their destiny (rewards and punishments). Part of the power of agency requires “knowledge” of good and evil. We learn from Genesis and the spiritual symbolism of the Eden epoch that man had to fall by making a choice to gain knowledge of good and evil. The agency to choose between good and evil is the single most important doctrine of the fall and all other doctrines concerning the fall revolve around that understanding of agency - and this includes the atonement and interceding of Christ.

Because of the fall man in placed in a fallen state where we are separated from the light of the Father but granted the light of Christ. Because we live in a state where knowledge of consequences is not known before we engage in either the good things inspired by the light of Christ or the evil things inspired by the darkness of sin we can experience both the light of Christ and the darkness of Satan without being forever bound to either. Keep in mind that Satan is the prince of darkness. In this manner all sin and fall short of the glory and light of G-d and at the same time; through sin we can temporally taste the bitterness of hell but we can also have feelings of good (repentance) drawing us at times into light. Because of the interceding of Christ we can experience good.

Now the very important part - the agency granted to man. All the way up to what is called the final judgment man’s agency allows his to choose. Why is there a point where the choice ends? What is the great difference? If the difference is some arbitrary point where G-d punishes ignorant sin then agency is denied. But if the reason is - that man comes to full knowledge of good and evil and in such knowledge makes a choice - then man indeed is granted agency to choose between good and evil having obtained knowledge. But there is a caveat in the choice between good and evil.

The choice of good requires that man also chooses to rid themselves of all sin - this is done by repentance. So in truth in order to choose good man must also choose to forever withdraw from evil. For many that is more than difficult - it is impossible because they desire some evil. There are things about certain sins that they have great desire for and want dearly; even more than good.

There is also a choice of evil that requires that man also chooses to rid themselves of all light. This is done by turning away from or refusing to repent. So in truth in order to choose evil man must also choose to forever withdraw from good (light of Christ).

This all makes the final judgment both simple to understand the justice of it all as well as the eternal principle that man has agency and man does choose his destiny. It is very important to understand that man chooses - for this is part of the light of Christ - to protect man’s agency.

But there is another doctrine. This doctrine teaches that it is good and light (light which is really darkness) that G-d deprives man of agency to choose but rather G-d chooses for man the destiny of each man and thus it is G-d that determines man’s reward or punishment. LDS are given to understand that was Satan’s plan from the beginning. That men not have agency but rather G-d (Satan) chooses and determines - not man - at a final judgment to which he (Satan) is responsible and takes all the glory of G-d determining rewards and punishments according to his judgment.

Thus it is that the war that began in heaven is concluded at what is called the final judgment where each of us will choose by our agency and desire our G-d for eternity.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

There are a couple of things I should point out:

1) If you believe in a final judgment, then regardless of who makes that choice at the end, there will be no repentance after that. Therefore, you are agreeing that there is an eternal Hell. You're just changing the judge from what I and PC believe.

2) Man does have agency. Agency to choose. This much is true.

Aaronic Priesthood Manual 3 Lesson 8: The Resurrection and Judgment

That's straight from LDS.org, quoting the Aaronic Priesthood manual. The savior is the final judge. I'll quote the relevant part here.

I understand what you're saying, but I've quoted scripture here. I appreciate what your point of view is, but you have to understand that it's not in keeping with what scripture or modern and ancient prophets have said.

There are only two possible answers to this:

The first is that scripture, modern and ancient prophets are wrong.

The second is that you are wrong.

In the past, I have been pretty confrontational. I don't want to be about this because it's not something I relish debating. This is the most frightening concept I can think of. We can not, however, try to put our own spin on scripture. Therein lies apostasy, usually for the best of intentions.

FunkyTown: I have never felt your posts harsh are argumentative. Sometime it is necessary to be direct to put a particular point across. All of your points are taken - I am not saying that you or PC are wrong. What I am saying is that it appears to me you are emphasizing concepts out of context and by doing so have come to an incorrect conclusion concerning the agency of man at the last great day.

Let us take a look together at some scripture. Let us take a very careful look and be sure to understand together. I will not quote all the scripture here because it too long for a post. Let us look carefully at 2Nephi chapter 2. Verse 11 is often quoted concerning opposition in all things. This verse says a great deal about creation and the separation of light and darkness - but we will not dwell heavily on this point but rather move on. Lehi does an excellent job of teaching concerning the reason for a “probationary” period that was because of the fall.

Now we come to the important part of our discussion in verse 26. Note here that the punishment is because of the law - This I believe to be a most important notion concerning what is going on. Note the particular wording here - rather than call it the final judgment it is called the great and last day. To understand the “final judgment” or great and last day we can turn to verse 27 for the most detailed explanation I have ever seen. Here we learn that “men are free” to choose “Liberty” or “Captivity”.

Note also in verse 27 that G-d has insured that “all things are given them which are expedient unto man”. In other words man has everything he needs to make a final choice between light and darkness. There are other scriptures that clearly tell us that light is received or not received according to the agency of man (D&C 93:31) - not because G-d decides - but because man decides.

There is a warning - a warning that as part of our final choice involves how we live and the desires we acquire. We are counseled in the great principle of discipline. But this is another topic. But for the short version - discipline is the means by which we act rather than be acted upon. Or the difference between freedom and captivity. But rather than cloud an issue that is already obscure - I have limited my remarks to agency and the choice that man makes (not G-d for man) between light and darkness.

When you asked about Outer Darkness - my point is not that they are unwilling to repent or unable to repent - my point is that in order for them to get there; they made a willing choice with full knowledge. The only possible reason for a change “change of mind” is because when the choice was made - ether something was missing to choose (Which according to scripture I have quoted is not possible) or the choice was not man’s - which means G-d forced the choice depriving man of agency. Which I have been arguing throughout this thread (and other times) that G-d does not and will not do.

The Traveler

PS - thanks for your interest and concern

[FunkyTown]

FunkyTown: I have never felt your posts harsh are argumentative. Sometime it is necessary to be direct to put a particular point across. All of your points are taken - I am not saying that you or PC are wrong. What I am saying is that it appears to me you are emphasizing concepts out of context and by doing so have come to an incorrect conclusion concerning the agency of man at the last great day.

Let us take a look together at some scripture. Let us take a very careful look and be sure to understand together. I will not quote all the scripture here because it too long for a post. Let us look carefully at 2Nephi chapter 2. Verse 11 is often quoted concerning opposition in all things. This verse says a great deal about creation and the separation of light and darkness - but we will not dwell heavily on this point but rather move on. Lehi does an excellent job of teaching concerning the reason for a “probationary” period that was because of the fall.

Now we come to the important part of our discussion in verse 26. Note here that the punishment is because of the law - This I believe to be a most important notion concerning what is going on. Note the particular wording here - rather than call it the final judgment it is called the great and last day. To understand the “final judgment” or great and last day we can turn to verse 27 for the most detailed explanation I have ever seen. Here we learn that “men are free” to choose “Liberty” or “Captivity”.

Note also in verse 27 that G-d has insured that “all things are given them which are expedient unto man”. In other words man has everything he needs to make a final choice between light and darkness. There are other scriptures that clearly tell us that light is received or not received according to the agency of man (D&C 93:31) - not because G-d decides - but because man decides.

There is a warning - a warning that as part of our final choice involves how we live and the desires we acquire. We are counseled in the great principle of discipline. But this is another topic. But for the short version - discipline is the means by which we act rather than be acted upon. Or the difference between freedom and captivity. But rather than cloud an issue that is already obscure - I have limited my remarks to agency and the choice that man makes (not G-d for man) between light and darkness.

When you asked about Outer Darkness - my point is not that they are unwilling to repent or unable to repent - my point is that in order for them to get there; they made a willing choice with full knowledge. The only possible reason for a change “change of mind” is because when the choice was made - ether something was missing to choose (Which according to scripture I have quoted is not possible) or the choice was not man’s - which means G-d forced the choice depriving man of agency. Which I have been arguing throughout this thread (and other times) that G-d does not and will not do.

The Traveler

PS - thanks for your interest and concern

Good points, all.

And I would agree - God doesn't force decisions on people(With the exception of the whole Moses/Pharoah 'God hardened Pharoah's heart' thing).

Yes. Outer Darkness/The Abyss/Hell/Whatever you want to call it is arrived at based upon the decisions you make.

That having been said, do you think that people at the end of time, will be saying "Hmm... Well... I'd feel uncomfortable being around all those killers in the telestial Kingdom, so I choose eternal damnation in a place of stifling, absolute darkness."

If you don't believe people are choosing that, and that it's based upon their decisions they made in life, who is the final arbiter of where someone belongs?

[Traveler]

Good points, all.

And I would agree - God doesn't force decisions on people(With the exception of the whole Moses/Pharoah 'God hardened Pharoah's heart' thing).

Yes. Outer Darkness/The Abyss/Hell/Whatever you want to call it is arrived at based upon the decisions you make.

That having been said, do you think that people at the end of time, will be saying "Hmm... Well... I'd feel uncomfortable being around all those killers in the telestial Kingdom, so I choose eternal damnation in a place of stifling, absolute darkness."

If you don't believe people are choosing that, and that it's based upon their decisions they made in life, who is the final arbiter of where someone belongs?

Hello again buddy,

If you do not mind - take a look at another scripture. This is Moses chapter 5. Pay particular attention to verses 13, 18 and 28. I believe we have here a clear indication of why someone would gladly select living in darkness with Satan rather than in the light with G-d.

In fact - my personal view of the "Final Judgment" or if you will that "Great and Last Day" that as each soul comes before G-d that every soul that is inclined towards Outer Darkness that G-d will plead with them with all his heart, as G-d has always done, to return to him - I think he will give them more time if they desire - anything to be 100% sure or what they are asking. I believe some will look G-d in the eye, thank G-d for all that G-d and done - they will recognize him for who he is and on bended knee say, “However, this is what I desire and love - to be among those I love. Thank you and good bye.”

I believe whatever kingdom of glory one desires they will say the same thing - they want to be with those they love most doing the things they love doing most. Not only do I find the scriptures echoing this light of truth - In all my experience with people from church going people, to family loving people, to apostates, to criminals to those with same sex attractions to whatever behavior someone is about when they get to choose what they are about - they are about it because that is the kind of people they would rather be around at the end of the day after all the pretending is done - it is who they are and what they want most.

The Traveler

Edited May 17, 2011 by Traveler

[Justice]

He has impacted my core belief, in that I am increasingly convinced that all Christians who believe in an eternal hell are going to need to rigorously explain and defend the teaching.

All we need do is quote the Book of Mormon. :)

[JohnnyRudick]

Will not every knee bow and every tongue confess that Jesus is L-rd? If no one is rejecting Jesus as L-rd - who is left to punish for rebellion? . . .

I have ran into those (not too many but they are out there)

who say.

"I believe in God, I just hate Him."

The rest of the comments go from there into things

I cringe to write down. Would they bow to Him?

Most say no but some acknowledge they they might

if it comes that there is no other way to go.

But I think and they know they are still in rebellion.

My children have said I am right and just but still harbored

rebellion of the situation in their hearts.

[Traveler]

I have ran into those (not too many but they are out there)

who say.

"I believe in God, I just hate Him."

The rest of the comments go from there into things

I cringe to write down. Would they bow to Him?

Most say no but some acknowledge they they might

if it comes that there is no other way to go.

But I think and they know they are still in rebellion.

My children have said I am right and just but still harbored

rebellion of the situation in their hearts.

I thought about this for a while. I have ran into similar "G-d hater". But when I come to learn more what they are talking about that are not describing G-d in any way that I understand him to be.

My point here is that we all will know exactly who G-d is and what he has done for all of us. Many talk about rebellion. I guess that thought is fine. In essence it is nothing more that preferring something else and not so much doing away with G-d for everybody - just that they are “uncomfortable” doing what they love most in G-d’s presents.

The Traveler