Hard Questions Regarding The Church.

[cmblueeyes]

I am feeling pretty stressed out, and I am hoping that someone can help me.

I have grown up in the church, but never was able to take out my endowments. I fell away from the church from the time I was about 15 until about a year ago. I started going back to church, and reading, and praying and doing everything that I should be, however something is not sitting right with me. I have had the Missionaries over a number of times, as well as my home teachers and visiting teachers and they have been unable or unwilling to answer my questions, so I thought I would pose some of them here.

I sat down with my Bishop about a week ago and he was unable to help me either. He instructed me to pray and ponder and read the scriptures which I have been doing faithfully every day.

The biggest thing I am struggling with is this;

There are so many things that Joseph Smith taught, that were supposed to be "eternal and unchanging", however the church has changed a number of things/doctorines. This completely baffles me. If this was Gods one and only true church, why have things been changed? Wouldn't God have done things right in the beginning, he is perfect right? Wouldn't make mistakes right?

The temple ceremonies have changed, the curse of Cain has changed, the whole book of Abraham has been proven to be false.

I don't get it. Please help me. I've prayed and prayed and prayed, and nothing.......

[Dr T]

THanks for asking cmblueeyes. This will be an interesting discussion.

Dr. T

[cmblueeyes]

THanks for asking cmblueeyes. This will be an interesting discussion.

Dr. T

I thought I would quote another thread which has to do with this one.....

***

cmblueeyes,

What are you using as your measuring stick for truth? BOM? Feelings? The Bible? What the church tells you? Logic? etc?

Thanks,

Dr. T

***

I have been praying, and reading the book of mormon, and the bible, I've been reading the Ensign and other Church material, also, reading books that shed light on the truth behind mormons and their faith.

Mostly right now I am using my brain, my hear, and logic and it's telling me to run, run fast and don't look back..... It's telling me that what i am reading against the church is totally true, and it honestly makes so much sense, and when no one will discuss these issues with me, it only leads me to one simple conclusion... it must be right and the leaders of the church are aware that it is right and have advised all of the churches members to literally ban all anti mormon prop from their lives. The church leaders are afraid of the faithful member reading it and leaving the church, because quite honestly, after reading it, I wa snot envoked by satan, but with a warm feeling of finally receiving the truth....... All mormons skirt around the main issues that have been proven to be false within their "faith".....

It's difficult to expain really....

cmblueeyes

[Jason]

There are so many things that Joseph Smith taught, that were supposed to be "eternal and unchanging", however the church has changed a number of things/doctorines. This completely baffles me. If this was Gods one and only true church, why have things been changed? Wouldn't God have done things right in the beginning, he is perfect right? Wouldn't make mistakes right?

The temple ceremonies have changed, the curse of Cain has changed, the whole book of Abraham has been proven to be false.

I don't get it. Please help me. I've prayed and prayed and prayed, and nothing.......

ONE of the many reasons why I ceased believing in the LDS church back in 1998. Good luck.

[cmblueeyes]

<div class='quotemain'>

There are so many things that Joseph Smith taught, that were supposed to be "eternal and unchanging", however the church has changed a number of things/doctorines. This completely baffles me. If this was Gods one and only true church, why have things been changed? Wouldn't God have done things right in the beginning, he is perfect right? Wouldn't make mistakes right?

The temple ceremonies have changed, the curse of Cain has changed, the whole book of Abraham has been proven to be false.

I don't get it. Please help me. I've prayed and prayed and prayed, and nothing.......

ONE of the many reasons why I ceased believing in the LDS church back in 1998. Good luck.

You said one of the MANY reasons why you left the LDS shurch, might you go into further deatil as to the other reasons?

[Dr T]

Hello cmblueeyes,

Something I never understood about the LDS faith is the reliance of the burning in the bosom for confirmation yet dismissing teh lack thereof as of limited importance (or lack of weight rather given to this lack of confirmation). For example, people always say, "You just need to keep praying for it." What if that feeling never comes? When does one come to the conclusion that this lack of burning is also a sign? When would the lack of feeling show the same amount of certainty that the belief system is not true as it does for the believers? Where in the Bible are we told to seek this feeling? Just learning and curious.

Thanks

[Jason]

You said one of the MANY reasons why you left the LDS shurch, might you go into further deatil as to the other reasons?

I cannot do that here. Sorry. You can PM me if you wish.

[Ray]

I think the reason you are being advised to pray about all of those issues is because you need to be able to see another way of looking at things, a way in which all of those things you are thinking about will fall into perspective and you will be able to see that there is harmony in all that the Lord does through His servants.

For instance, your idea that things/doctrines shouldn’t change at all is not consistent with anything God has ever taught anyone during the whole time God has been instructing Man on Earth. Our Lord does change some things/doctrines, and He has always done so, although the basic principles have always remained the same… gaining Faith from God about Jesus Christ, Repenting of all you know to be sin to God, and being Baptized and Doing all the other things you know God wants you to do.

And to tell you something about Faith, I’ll tell you God has always worked with Man according to Faith (or the assurance God gives to Man that Man is ready and willing to receive), and at many different times He has used many different approaches. Like limiting the highest order of priesthood to only one person at a time at one time in the past, when now it is available to anyone who does what it takes to receive it.

Do you remember the scriptures stating how Abraham paid tithes to Melchizedek, and Paul saying that order of priesthood was greater than that of Aaron and Levi and all of his descendants? And surely Melchizedek received his priesthood from someone (?). And the priesthood of Moses and Joseph, his successor, was also greater than that of Aaron and his descendants, so the highest order of priesthood continued with some more people getting it later… like Elijah and Jeremiah and Isaiah, with some of those prophets living in the same day and age as other prophets. (And btw, any order or degree of priesthood from God is known by a name, and we now know or refer to that name as the Melchizedek order of priesthood)

Anyway, just keep studying and praying while asking for God’s assurance, instead of asking some other people about what they think or believe. I could give you the right answers to some of your questions without you even knowing it, or in other words, without you believing what I tell you, and if you don’t receive your own assurance from God you won’t know what to believe.

And learning from God by gaining all of your assurances from Him is the way we should all learn the truth, so you have been given some very good advice.

[MBASS]

I believe things change because the world changes. God has to make things apply to the present day people. For example....it was supposed to be God's law that the saints practiced polygamy (still something I struggle with) but when it was considered illegal that commandment changed. As far as the temple ceremony changing. The things that changed in the ceremony or that were removed are not main things. The main purpose, covenants, etc were not and as far as I know have not changed. The Gospel is always the same basic principles. Things occasionally have to be altered to fit....instead of coveting our neighbors donkey we're not supposed to covet his house or worldly things! =) Another principle that Changed is the Law of Sacrifice....you can read that it ended with the Savior's atonement. All types of things changed throughout the times and will continue to change. A question, are you praying an open ended prayer such as tell me what to do?! I find it is better to make a decision and then pray for it to be confirmed, a yes or no question. You could pray are these things true. Also ponder a minute or two before ending...thats when the answers slide in!!!! Hope this helps!

[Fiannan]

Interesting, another newbie with all kinds of difficult questions. Or am I just the suspicious sort?

[Jason]

For instance, your idea that things/doctrines shouldn’t change at all is not consistent with anything God has ever taught anyone during the whole time God has been instructing Man on Earth. Our Lord does change some things/doctrines, and He has always done so, although the basic principles have always remained the same…

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and forever." (Hebrews 13:8)

See also the abundant LDS scriptures on this same subject here: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/search?search...day+and+forever

[BenRaines]

Thank you Jason for taking it between the two of you.

I guess I missed the part about the whole book of abraham being proven to be false.

I would say if someone has decided or they feel driven to leave then they should. I don't know anywhere in the LDS doctrine that is says if you don't believe and you feel it is false that you need to stay around. If you wish to keep working at coming to that understanding then you are welcome to stay. It may take a lifetime.

Good luck in your desire to find truth and where you find it I hope you are happy. I say that sincerely without any sarcasm.

Ben Raines

[Jason]

Interesting, another newbie with all kinds of difficult questions. Or am I just the suspicious sort?

Conspiracy Theorists of the World, Unite!!

[Dr T]

Hello all,

That an interesting idea. You are saying that God changed doctrine due to people's needs. You are saying that God changes.

Dr. T

[Jason]

Thank you Jason for taking it between the two of you.

I guess I missed the part about the whole book of abraham being proven to be false.

I would say if someone has decided or they feel driven to leave then they should. I don't know anywhere in the LDS doctrine that is says if you don't believe and you feel it is false that you need to stay around. If you wish to keep working at coming to that understanding then you are welcome to stay. It may take a lifetime.

Good luck in your desire to find truth and where you find it I hope you are happy. I say that sincerely without any sarcasm.

Ben Raines

Ben, if more Latter-day Saints had that attutude, you'd put all the Anti-Mormons out of business.

[Winnie G]

cmblueeyes

Ive read what you call anti- church and I am still here.

I to took a vacation from my membership when I was young shortly after I joined.

More from some jakeass’s remarks then the doctrine alone.

When I returned to the church, I was getting closer to 30 then the 18 when I joined.

During that time, I even attended other churches but I came back to my LDS faith.

I hear you when you say well they did things differently and now it’s changed why?

I love church history and I read just about ever thing I can get my hands on from time to time.

I even have some strong dislikes about the attitude some presidents have had.

When I run across people who have these same questions you have I remember reading a story about how members felt about iron verses wood plow blades.

When reading about the past we must try to understand what the education level these people had and the times they lived in.

It was a grate debate over wood or iron plow blades, some members believed iron would damage the earth and wood would not. Ludicrous since both came from the earth. Right? But never the less it was a debate of the times. So was all the superstition as well.

A belief, practice, or rite irrationally maintained by ignorance by faith in magic or chance is our past. Our history is full of such beliefs not just the church.

If you look at it with a eye of understanding the times things come clearer.

Is a Prophet a prophet 24/7? Or is he a man who god specks to upon important occasions.

Is Heavily Father always with these men as he helped around the house. The prophet Joseph Smith was knows for washing dishes and tumbling on the lawn with his children and so on. At one point some of the early 12 came to him and told him some of his behavior was not prophet like, I mean he should not be seen hanging up laundry or coming to the door wiping his hands from doing the dishes or at play with his children.

He chastised them and told them to go home and apologized to their wife’s and children for being a failure as a man, eternal companion and father.

He was known for saying “I’m just a man”. Why would he say that, because at times the Lord was not with him or the prophets that fallowed him.

Things do change as times change. It does not mean the laws of right and wrong change.

Women’s dress changed but the counsel of modesty stayed the same.

Yes temple rites changed as well. Some small temple for insist have showers and locker rooms for members to clean up and change even before they show their recommend.

Why because some people had to travel 100’s of miles to reach the temple even today, Halifax is one of them.

Yet when we drove two days to attend the Nauvoo temple we found they had no place for us to clean up. We were told they could fit us in a session but we declined knowing we were not as clean as we should be. We returned the next day and were blessed.

As years have pasted different things changed in the temple.

People now understand that cleanliness is required, were the thought baths once or twice a year was OK. Someone once told me “did you know that you would have been required to be scrubbed down by other women in the early church before your endowments”? I said “I would hope so if it was in the 1800’s and people rarely bathed”!

I joined the church in 1977 not all mean could hold the priesthood then and it really bothered me since I was being raised by my step-father who was a holocaust survivor. Discrimination in any form bothered me greatly. I took it to the Lord and I received my answer that I was not to worry about that and it would not always be that way. I received a felling of peace and to my joy it did change in a mater of months.

By the way African Americans held the priesthood wile Joseph Smith was alive.

Out side presser on others and the political climent as well changed a lot of things.

Its like polygamy some say it was what the church gave up to gain statehood, I know it was because men could not live it with out some corruption of others.

If you look at what has become of it now you can see the wisdom as well.

The law of consecration was the same. Oddly enough my hippy cousins in the 60’s did a better job of living the law of consecration then early church member did by living in a collective. One still lives in one and he has raised a amazing family and his best of friends still work together to sustain the life they choose to live. (They lived in serpent house on the land not like a commune)

I have seen many changes but not once were we asked to just take it at face value but to ponder and pray and come to your own understanding.

Some had a hard time with multi-media being used in temples at first, but our growth as a church required it. Some talk about blood oaths years back. Well we are not being chased across the plans and being burned out of our homes are we any more.

You say you use you intellect, may I suggest you take the time to know the history in order to under stand change. Sometimes if we over think it over pray it the voice of your father cant be heard.

You know the term leap of faith? Jump and watch were the spirit safely lands you.

Your sister Winnie G

[Dr T]

HI winnie,

You are saying that a prophet is not a prophet 24/7. From where does that come? Why not. The Bible talks about anyone who gives a prophecy that does not come to pass is a false prophet. This does not sound like someone can turn it off at will.

Thanks

[Ray]

Who ever said that a prophet is the one to "turn it on"???

A prophet is only acting as a prophet when he, or she (in which case she was be a prophetess), is receiving inspiration and revelation from God, and since that person must wait upon God to communicate with him/her, and God doesn't always communicate with each and every person who ever was or has been a prophet each and every day 24/7, the control is all up to God.

Or in other words, Man cannnot compel God to communicate with him/her, so God is in control, and only when Man receives inspiration or revelation from God is Man acting as a prophet.

But of course, once God has communiated with an individual, that person can still be considered to be a prophet or prophetess, even though they may no longer communicate with God any more, if you define a prophet or prophetess as someone who has ever received communication from God.

And yes, God has changed in the past, because God was once born on Earth, and before God was born He lived in Heaven, where He returned after being resurrected. To think that God has always been the same, each and every day in the past, does not take into consideration the things He has done and has yet to do.

Some people should think more before they say something, while knowing there's more to learn.

[cmblueeyes]

Anyway, just keep studying and praying while asking for God’s assurance, instead of asking some other people about what they think or believe. I could give you the right answers to some of your questions without you even knowing it, or in other words, without you believing what I tell you, and if you don’t receive your own assurance from God you won’t know what to believe.

And learning from God by gaining all of your assurances from Him is the way we should all learn the truth, so you have been given some very good advice.

Ray,

I have prayed, and I have come to the conclusion that the mormons are wrong. God as burned in my heart telling me to not go back to the church.

[Dr T]

Thank you for the good post Ray. You speak of a prophet correctly when you say that God choses this gift for some people. Reading through the Bible however, I am aware of false prophets. Are those from God too? Can you educated me on what a false prophet is? How can you distinguish a true prophet from a false one?

Thanks for the lesson,

Dr. T

[Jason]

Ray,

I have prayed, and I have come to the conclusion that the mormons are wrong. God as burned in my heart telling me to not go back to the church.

Looks like you already had your mind made up. I hope you find illumination.

Reading through the Bible however, I am aware of false prophets. Are those from God too?

Yep.

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (Ezekiel 14:9)

[pushka]

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (Ezekiel 14:9)

Oooh, that seems a little harsh considering the Lord is admitting to having deceived the prophet in the first place, to then destroy that prophet...surely it wasn't the prophet's fault he was deceived?

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (Ezekiel 14:9)

Oooh, that seems a little harsh considering the Lord is admitting to having deceived the prophet in the first place, to then destroy that prophet...surely it wasn't the prophet's fault he was deceived?

You're such a godless heretic!

[Winnie G]

cmblueeyes

Ok then if you feel that why then why are you here?

[LionHeart]

"And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the LORD have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (Ezekiel 14:9)

Yes, very confusing. However, I believe that the point it is putting across is not that the Lord Himself decieved the prophet but allowed him to be subjected to deception; in which case, if the prophet allowed himself to be decieved, he would be worthy of destruction. This is the only context in which I can make sense of it. I do know that the translations vary with the different languages they are in. For example, this same passage may be an entirely different expression in the German version of the KJV bible.

But that's just me.