Written Authority

[honeybear]

The LDS church believes, of course, that its living prophet trumps every

other source of authority. That is not, of course, how the church puts

it. In fact, various General Authorities have made statements to the

effect that the Standard Works are the final authority. However, in

practice that's not the case at all, and President Ezra Taft Benson quite

honestly insisted that it is the living prophets, and not the dead

prophets, who prevail.

The question for us Christians is whether this is Biblical. What God

said to Moses or Paul was true then - and therefore is equally true

today, for truth, by its nature, does not become untruth. Black doesn't

become white when a new prophet arises; right does not transform

miraculously into wrong upon the demise of the previous prohpet. If God

once revealed, therefore, that His written revelation is the final

authority, then that is the case today just as surely as it was then.

Here are some words from the Scripture.

Matt 4:4 But He answered and said, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON

BREAD ALONE, BUT ON EVERY WORD THAT PROCEEDS OUT OF THE MOUTH OF GOD.'"

Matt 4:7 Jesus said to him, "On the other hand, it is written, 'YOU SHALL

NOT PUT THE LORD YOUR GOD TO THE TEST.'"

Matt 4:10 Then Jesus *said to him, "Go, Satan! For it is written, 'YOU

SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD YOUR GOD, AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

Matt 11:10 "This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY

MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'

Matt 21:13 And He *said to them, "It is written, 'MY HOUSE SHALL BE

CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER'; but you are making it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Matt 26:24 "The Son of Man {is to} go, just as it is written of Him; but

woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been

good for that man if he had not been born."

Matt 26:31 ¶ Then Jesus *said to them, "You will all fall away because of

Me this night, for it is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND

THE SHEEP OF THE FLOCK SHALL BE SCATTERED.'

Mark 1:2 ¶ As it is written in Isaiah the prophet: "BEHOLD, I SEND MY

MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY;

Mark 7:6 And He said to them, "Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you

hypocrites, as it is written: 'THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT

THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.

Mark 11:17 And He {began} to teach and say to them, "Is it not written,

'MY HOUSE SHALL BE CALLED A HOUSE OF PRAYER FOR ALL THE NATIONS'? But you

have made it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Mark 14:21 "For the Son of Man {is to} go just as it is written of Him;

but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! {It would have

been} good for that man if he had not been born."

Mark 14:27 ¶ And Jesus *said to them, "You will all fall away, because it

is written, 'I WILL STRIKE DOWN THE SHEPHERD, AND THE SHEEP SHALL BE

SCATTERED.'

Luke 3:4 as it is written in the book of the words of Isaiah the prophet,

"THE VOICE OF ONE CRYING IN THE WILDERNESS, 'MAKE READY THE WAY OF THE

LORD, MAKE HIS PATHS STRAIGHT.

Luke 4:4 And Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'MAN SHALL NOT LIVE ON

BREAD ALONE.'"

Luke 4:8 Jesus answered him, "It is written, 'YOU SHALL WORSHIP THE LORD

YOUR GOD AND SERVE HIM ONLY.'"

Luke 7:27 "This is the one about whom it is written, 'BEHOLD, I SEND MY

MESSENGER AHEAD OF YOU, WHO WILL PREPARE YOUR WAY BEFORE YOU.'

Luke 10:26 And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it

read to you?"

Luke 18:31 ¶ Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we

are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the

prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished.

Luke 19:46 saying to them, "It is written, 'AND MY HOUSE SHALL BE A HOUSE

OF PRAYER,' but you have made it a ROBBERS' DEN."

Luke 20:17 But Jesus looked at them and said, "What then is this that is

written: 'THE STONE WHICH THE BUILDERS REJECTED, THIS BECAME THE CHIEF

CORNER {stone}'?

Luke 22:37 "For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled

in Me, 'AND HE WAS NUMBERED WITH TRANSGRESSORS'; for that which refers to

Me has {its} fulfillment."

Luke 24:46 and He said to them, "Thus it is written, that the Christ

would suffer and rise again from the dead the third day,

John 2:17 His disciples remembered that it was written, "ZEAL FOR YOUR

HOUSE WILL CONSUME ME."

John 6:31 "Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written,

'HE GAVE THEM BREAD OUT OF HEAVEN TO EAT.'"

John 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT

OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

John 12:14 Jesus, finding a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written,

John 15:25 "But {they have done this} to fulfill the word that is written

in their Law, 'THEY HATED ME WITHOUT A CAUSE.'

John 20:30 ¶ Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the

presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

John 20:31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus

is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in

His name.

Acts 1:20 "For it is written in the book of Psalms, 'LET HIS HOMESTEAD BE

MADE DESOLATE, AND LET NO ONE DWELL IN IT'; and, 'LET ANOTHER MAN TAKE

HIS OFFICE.'

Acts 7:42 "But God turned away and delivered them up to serve the host of

heaven; as it is written in the book of the prophets, 'IT WAS NOT TO ME

THAT YOU OFFERED VICTIMS AND SACRIFICES FORTY YEARS IN THE WILDERNESS,

WAS IT, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL?

Acts 13:33 that God has fulfilled this {promise} to our children in that

He raised up Jesus, as it is also written in the second Psalm, 'YOU ARE

MY SON; TODAY I HAVE BEGOTTEN YOU.'

Acts 15:15 "With this the words of the Prophets agree, just as it is

written,

Acts 23:5 And Paul said, "I was not aware, brethren, that he was high

priest; for it is written, 'YOU SHALL NOT SPEAK EVIL OF A RULER OF YOUR

PEOPLE.'"

Acts 24:14 "But this I admit to you, that according to the Way which they

call a sect I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that

is in accordance with the Law and that is written in the Prophets;

Rom 1:17 For in it {the} righteousness of God is revealed from faith to

faith; as it is written, "BUT THE RIGHTEOUS {man} SHALL LIVE BY FAITH."

Rom 3:10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE;

Rom 8:36 Just as it is written, "FOR YOUR SAKE WE ARE BEING PUT TO DEATH

ALL DAY LONG; WE WERE CONSIDERED AS SHEEP TO BE SLAUGHTERED."

Rom 9:13 Just as it is written, "JACOB I LOVED, BUT ESAU I HATED."

Rom 9:33 just as it is written, "BEHOLD, I LAY IN ZION A STONE OF

STUMBLING AND A ROCK OF OFFENSE, AND HE WHO BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE

DISAPPOINTED."

Rom 10:15 How will they preach unless they are sent? Just as it is

written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD

THINGS!"

Rom 11:8 just as it is written, "GOD GAVE THEM A SPIRIT OF STUPOR, EYES

TO SEE NOT AND EARS TO HEAR NOT, DOWN TO THIS VERY DAY."

Rom 11:26 and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "THE

DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

Rom 12:19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the

wrath {of God,} for it is written, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY,"

says the Lord.

Rom 14:11 For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL

BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."

Rom 15:3 For even Christ did not please Himself; but as it is written,

"THE REPROACHES OF THOSE WHO REPROACHED YOU FELL ON ME."

Rom 15:9 and for the Gentiles to glorify God for His mercy; as it is

written, "THEREFORE I WILL GIVE PRAISE TO YOU AMONG THE GENTILES, AND I

WILL SING TO YOUR NAME."

Rom 15:21 but as it is written, "THEY WHO HAD NO NEWS OF HIM SHALL SEE,

AND THEY WHO HAVE NOT HEARD SHALL UNDERSTAND."

1 Cor 1:19 For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND

THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."

1 Cor 1:31 so that, just as it is written, "LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN

THE LORD."

1 Cor 2:9 but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND

EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND {which} HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL

THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM."

1 Cor 3:19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God. For it

is written, "{He is} THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";

1 Cor 4:6 ¶ Now these things, brethren, I have figuratively applied to

myself and Apollos for your sakes, so that in us you may learn not to

exceed what is written, so that no one of you will become arrogant in

behalf of one against the other.

1 Cor 15:54 But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable,

and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the

saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.

Gal 3:10 ¶ For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse;

for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THINGS

WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO PERFORM THEM."

Gal 3:13 Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a

curse for us--for it is written, "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A

TREE"--

1 Pet 1:16 because it is written, "YOU SHALL BE HOLY, FOR I AM HOLY."

Rev 1:3 Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the

prophecy, and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is

near.

Rev 22:18 ¶ I testify to everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of

this book: if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues which

are written in this book;

Rev 22:19 and if anyone takes away from the words of the book of this

prophecy, God will take away his part from the tree of life and from the

holy city, which are written in this book.

If the Bible insists this thoroughly that *written* revelation is the

standard, then it seems safe to say that such is the case. And if the

written revelation is the standard, then Mormonism's living prophets are,

at best, unnecessary.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The LDS church believes, of course, that its living prophet trumps every other source of authority...right does not transform miraculously into wrong upon the demise of the previous prohpet...Here are some words from the Scripture.

hb, what you've done is give a wonderful example of how the New Testament is in the Old Testament concealed, and how the Old Testament is in the New Testament revealed. Almost all your scripture references dealt with Messianic prophecy, foretelling Christ's birth and role as Savior.

You believe written scripture cannot be clarified or expanded by new scripture. I disagree. I won't try to "prove you wrong," but I do want to give you another way of looking at things that you might consider. The underlined words/phrases below are hyperlinks to the actual scriptures referred to.

First: Times change, kingdoms come and go, technology improves...in short, new challenges arise requiring new guidance. Isaiah's prophecies to Ahaz about how to ward off the military confederacy of Syria and Ephraim isn't going to apply to, say, America and Iraq. Specific circumstances require specific guidance.

Second: Some scriptural "truths" are just temporal policies relating to a specific time and people. Jesus forbade the apostles to teach/baptize Gentiles and Samaritans. After Christ's resurrection, he revealed to Peter that it was okay to teach and baptize the Gentiles/Samaritans. By your standard, Peter was contradicting Christ's command, and hence the gospel should never have gone to the Gentiles/Samaritans. Some scriptures record policies, not eternal truths. There is no eternal law that states, "It is forbidden to teach the gospel to Gentiles." It was a temporary policy because the gospel was first to go to the House of Israel according to covenant. Going one step further, the Law of Moses forbade any but the tribe of Levi to function as priests and offer sacrifices for sin. Yet Christ--who was of the tribe of Judah--offered the final sacrifice for sin as our High Priest. Paul explains in Hebrews 7 that with Christ's coming, the priesthood changed and hence the law changed also (see vv. 12-14). Changing policy isn't the same as changing eternal truth.

Third: Several doctrines and ordinances in the New Testament contradict the Old Testament. Christ replaced the Passover feast with the sacrament of bread/wine, etc... In these cases, new ordinances don't make past ordinances "wrong," just no longer applicable. I won't go to hell for sprinkling goats' blood on a stone altar in the Old Testament fashion, but doing so isn't going to wash away my sins either.

I have to ask, when did God ever limit Himself to what He could and could not say? It is true that the Bible forbids unauthorized additions to God's word. But a prophet authorized by God to speak on His behalf is hardly the same thing as an ambitious scribe embellishing a verse of scripture while translating.

The question shouldn't be, "Can new scripture ever be added to the Bible?" It should be, "Is a person adding scripture to the Bible authorized by God to do so?" The only person who can tell you or me for sure about such questions is God. I believe Joseph Smith was a prophet called and authorized by God to speak and write with scriptural authority when commanded to do so. I prayed about it, God answered me, my testimony was born. And ultimately it's my testimony that I hold out for inspection, not my logic or scriptural knowledge. Thanks for reading. :)

[Guest just_jason76]

Prophets do not "trump" other prophets. We do have the scriptures, written by prophets of old. The teachings of these prophets are just as valid as if they'd come to us today. Modern prophets, being truly called of God as prophets, do not contradict former prophets nor take away from what they've said or written. The point the Church wants to make is that we have a current, living prophet, which sets us apart from any other church. If we only follow former prophets, we are no different than the many hundreds of Christian churches who believe revelation has stopped and that we have no need of modern prophecy.

We should follow prophets of old. That will never change. When it comes to what the Lord would have us know today, the living prophet is THE prophet. The heavens are still open. The Lord still has much more to reveal to us. This revelation can only come through a living prophet. Let us look to former prophets for their teachings and their dealings with the Lord and His people. Let us also look to our current prophet for that which the Lord sees fit to reveal to us today, and in the future.

[Ray]

I prayed about it, God answered me, my testimony was born. And ultimately it's my testimony that I hold out for inspection, not my logic or scriptural knowledge. Thanks for reading. :)

Ahh, a breath of fresh air.

Thank you, ApostleKnight. It was very good for me to see you say that. :)

Testimonies from God, with assurances from Him, are the best answers we can possibly find.

Far better than those from other people who give us their thoughts or a piece of their mind.

[Dr T]

Hello just_jason76,

You seem to be contradicting yourself when you say that modern prophets do not supersede past prophets. You say you will continue to follow what prophets of old had to say and that the Lord has THE prophet still living that you will follow. To be clear on the apparent contradiction, what would you say about an old prophet saying something and then the new prophet saying something diametrically opposed to that? How can you follow both at the same time on the same subject in the same way if they are complete opposites?

Thanks for your ideas.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Testimonies from God, with assurances from Him, are the best answers we can possibly find.

The only reason I discuss something on this board is because I have a testimony of it. I don't dabble in theoretics. When I write my long posts or go on and on explaining my view, all I'm doing is testifying. I just use lots of words to share my witness.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Testimonies from God, with assurances from Him, are the best answers we can possibly find.

The only reason I discuss something on this board is because I have a testimony of it. I don't dabble in theoretics. When I write my long posts or go on and on explaining my view, all I'm doing is testifying. I just use lots of words to share my witness.

:shakes head: Yep. Uh huh. Me too. :)

And sometimes I even mention some scriptures that I personally know and believe to be true.

[Traveler]

All scripture was given through a prophet. If there were no prophets there would be no scriptures. In almost all cases where scripture was given through a prophet the people had the words of previous prophets which if they had understood and been loyal the current prophet would not have been needed.

In the days of Jesus there were experts in scripture known as the Pharisees and Scribes. Even though they had the scriptures they rejected the Christ and sought to kill him and his apostles. In general experts in scripture have rejected prophets of G-d. Jesus said that a prophet is seldom accepted in own land.

It is sad that anyone with scriptures will find excuses to reject prophets - especially thinking that scriptures from past prophets is G-d way. To say prophets are not necessary is contrary to every prophet that G-d has sent. This process of rejecting prophets is not new - and in fact the scriptures tells us that what happened anciently is what will continue to happen Ecc. 1:7-10. It would appear that prophets today would be rejected just as they usually have been rejected by those that use scriptures as the excuse. There is no new thing under the sun.

The Traveler

[Guest just_jason76]

Hello just_jason76,

You seem to be contradicting yourself when you say that modern prophets do not supersede past prophets. You say you will continue to follow what prophets of old had to say and that the Lord has THE prophet still living that you will follow. To be clear on the apparent contradiction, what would you say about an old prophet saying something and then the new prophet saying something diametrically opposed to that? How can you follow both at the same time on the same subject in the same way if they are complete opposites?

Thanks for your ideas.

I don't believe I did contradict myself. Yes, I did say that I choose to follow prophets of old as well as the living prophet, however I do not believe that to be a contradiction. If you do, you must be confused about what a prophet is.

A prophet is a person called by God to speak his will to the entire world. I'm sure you believe that God's will does not change and that he does not contradict himself. If a prophet of old, who was called by God, a God who is not contradictary, teaches us His will, then a living prophet, who is also called by that same non-contradictary God, would teach the same will. Basically, if they are truly called of God they will not contradict each other. They both speak God's will.

If you choose to question me following modern and ancient prophets, then you must either not believe in modern revelation, or believe that there were no prophets of old, which would mean you do not believe the Bible, Book of Mormon, or any other scripture written by prophets. It sounds to me that between the two of us, the one contradicting himself is not me.

[Dr T]

Hi just_jason76,

No sir. I just said "apparent contradiction". But for arguments sake, are you familiar with any prophecies when juxtaposed, advocate for separate action? Now I'm talking about an old LDS prophet and a new LDS prophet? If so, how do you reconcile that?

Thanks

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I don't believe I did contradict myself. Yes, I did say that I choose to follow prophets of old as well as the living prophet, however I do not believe that to be a contradiction.

I think Dr. T is referring to the fact that we no longer keep the Passover feast or sacrifice live animals as part of the repentance process...things which were required by Jehovah of Old Testament peoples. There are changes in ordinances, rules etc...

I think what you're saying is that the core doctrines don't change as taught by prophets, namely: God lives, Jesus is His Son, Jesus saves us from sin and death, we can dwell with God through Christ's grace, etc...

If I'm mispeaking for you, please clarify since it does appear on the surface that you contradict yourself, though I don't believe you mean to.

[Guest just_jason76]

Hi just_jason76,

No sir. I just said "apparent contradiction". But for arguments sake, are you familiar with any prophecies when juxtaposed, advocate for separate action? Now I'm talking about an old LDS prophet and a new LDS prophet? If so, how do you reconcile that?

Thanks

I have no clue what you are talking about.

[Jason]

I have no clue

I've noticed.

He's talking about prophets who proclaimed (like Brigham Young) that unless a man practices plural marriage in this life, he cannot become a god. Contrast that with current LDS prophets who would excommunicate you and in essence condemn you to the Telestial Kingdom for following Young's instructions.

[Dr T]

Never mind just_jason76. Sorry for not being clear.

[Guest just_jason76]

I'm not willing to get into a debate. I know what I believe and if you don't believe the same then that is certainly your right and I will not argue with that. I guess we can agree to disagree.

[Snow]

The question for us Christians is whether this is Biblical. What God

said to Moses or Paul was true then - and therefore is equally true

today, for truth, by its nature, does not become untruth. Black doesn't

become white when a new prophet arises; right does not transform

miraculously into wrong upon the demise of the previous prohpet. If God

once revealed, therefore, that His written revelation is the final

authority, then that is the case today just as surely as it was then.

Here are some words from the Scripture.

Why is that the question?

That presupposes that everything in the bible is inspired, transmitted correctly or perfectly, and that when the orginal inpiration occurred, the author understood it exactly the way that God intended it, and that that said author recorded correctly or perfectly.

I seen nothing that indicates that any of those three things are so.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

What God said to Moses or Paul was true then - and therefore is equally true

today, for truth, by its nature, does not become untruth.

So do you go to Jerusalem three times a year as the Old Testament requires of God's covenant people? Do you put to death anyone who commits adultery? Do you shed animal blood as part of your repentance process?

What? You don't? But the Bible says to do those things. Are you saying that what the Old Testament prophets taught no longer applies today? But I thought you said what was true then is true today? Please explain...

[BenRaines]

Great questions AK. Another is do you kill your children that are disobedient. Mosaic law and part of the ten commandments says "Obey thy Father and thy Mother, that thy days may be long in the land" Law said if you didn't you were to be stoned.

I look forward to the answers to AK's questions.

Ben Raines