No New Thing Under The Sun

[Ray]

Yes, we should be precise, ApostleKnight, to show we understand each other, and I know you still don’t understand what I meant, so I’ll backup and summarize what I’ve already said, while hoping this will help to ease your mind.

In post #10, CaptainTux asked how many sins it would take to lose salvation.

In post #11, I then said only one, if not repented of, although there is a sin which can’t be forgiven… called murder.

In post #12, you showed me you misunderstood me, and then proceeded to try to correct me.

In post #13, I tried to correct you by trying to help you understand me, by saying that the salvation I was referring to in post #11 was a reference to salvation in God’s highest kingdom of glory… which murderers can’t and won’t obtain… and I then defined salvation as total salvation, not receiving a lesser salvation.

In post #14, you showed some frustration, and didn’t even bother to respond to me.

In post #15, The Traveler shared his testimony about how we all can receive salvation, while saying something about semantics and misunderstandings.

In post #16, Dr. T. then came in, sharing some of his beliefs about blasphemy against the Holy Ghost, while also saying he agreed with you on some points, and with me on some points… although at this point I don’t know which ones.

In post #17, I gave my testimony again, while giving my personal understanding of what it means to murder, and using scriptures to help show what our Lord has said… and I also defined what blasphemy against the Holy Ghost means or meant, according to the words of our Lord.

In post #18, Dr. T. said he didn’t agree with me concerning my understanding of the unpardonable sin, because murder wasn’t mentioned by our Lord in Matthew and he didn’t accept what He said in D&C 132.

In post #19, I then tried to help Dr. T. again, by trying to help him understand the words of our Lord.

In post #20, Dr. T. still didn’t agree with me, because he still didn’t accept some knowledge from our Lord.

In post #21, I tried to help Dr. T. again, by still trying to help him understand the words of our Lord.

In post #22, Shannon came in, trying to help by giving instructions about how to post links on the internet.

In post #23, I said Shannon’s way would work, while also sharing what I understood about that.

In post #24, you came back in, showing you still didn’t understand me while trying to correct me again.

And here I am again, saying I know what is happening, and you guys still do not understand me.

And in case it might help, I’ll give you the highlights, to show that I do know this doctrine:

No person will receive the most glorious of salvations (or what I think of as “true” salvation) without repenting (or turning away) from ALL of their sins… according to the words of our Lord.

No person who ever murdered or wanted to murder someone (and I tried to define murder) will receive the most glorious of salvations, unless they repent from that attitude that made them want to murder as well as suffer for that sin themselves, and will instead receive a “lesser” salvation.… according to the words of our Lord.

And finally, no person who ever murdered or wanted to murder OUR LORD will receive the most glorious of salvations, unless they repent from that attitude that made them want to murder as well as suffer for that sin themselves. And they won’t even receive a “lesser” or “lower” degree of salvation, and will instead be cast out into darkness… according to the words of our Lord.

And btw, as an interesting side note, I think it’s interesting to note how EVERY knee will bow to our Lord while knowing that ALL of His judgments are just, even when every one will not receive the most glorious of salvations, and some won’t receive “salvation” at all.

Can we all say, come quickly, Lord, come? :)

p.s. I added a few thoughts to my highlights, to try to show repentance is necessary for EVERY sin if you want to receive the highest degree of salvation, and even when we repent we must sometimes suffer if we truly want forgiveness for our sins.

[Dr T]

Hey Ray,

I'm guessing that you've been asked this but I'm interested in your response. Would Hitler (hypothetically), after repenting from all his misdeeds be saved or not?

Thanks for your ideas.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Nice try Ray. You lied about your original statement.

In post #11, I then said only one, if not repented of, although there is a sin which can't be forgiven; called murder.

...

No person who ever murdered (and I tried to define murder) will receive the most glorious of salvations, and will instead receive a "lesser salvation." according to the words of our Lord.

See how those contradict each other? First murderers can't be forgiven and receive any degree of glory. But now you say murderers can be forgiven and receive a lesser degree of glory. Now that you've seen murder isn't the unpardonable sin, you're backpedaling and trying to pretend you said something you didn't.

Dude, Ray, it's okay to be wrong. Just say, "Oops, guess I mispoke, no biggie, I gotcha now." No one's going to remember anyway, I"m not interested in proving you wrong, but in making sure you don't misrepresent LDS doctrine to those who aren't familiar with our scriptures.

[Ray]

Heh, okay, I'll try to say this again.

And btw, notice that I edited my post above... to try to make my thoughts more clear.

Anyway, yes, if someone wants to receive the highest degree of salvation to be able to return to where God, our Father in heaven, lives, they must first repent from ALL of their sins, or turn their lives toward God, with no desire to commit that sin anymore.

And for those of us who sin some very grievous sins, we also must suffer for those sins.

For instance, if someone murders someone and then later repents, they still must suffer for murdering someone... meaning they can't kill someone one day and then receive total forgiveness from our Lord the very next day without suffering, or feeling pain, for that sin.

But someday, if they repent, and keep their hearts turned towards God, God will wash away all of that sin... meaning they won't remember that sin, or feel pain for that sin, because that sin is not a part of their life anymore.

It's actually a very wonderful and marvelous plan, Doc. God will be very, very gracious to all of us. :)

Nice try Ray. You lied about your original statement.

<div class='quotemain'>

In post #11, I then said only one, if not repented of, although there is a sin which can't be forgiven; called murder.

...

No person who ever murdered (and I tried to define murder) will receive the most glorious of salvations, and will instead receive a "lesser salvation." according to the words of our Lord.

See how those contradict each other? First murderers can't be forgiven and receive any degree of glory. But now you say murderers can be forgiven and receive a lesser degree of glory. Now that you've seen murder isn't the unpardonable sin, you're backpedaling and trying to pretend you said something you didn't.

Dude, Ray, it's okay to be wrong. Just say, "Oops, guess I mispoke, no biggie, I gotcha now." No one's going to remember anyway, I"m not interested in proving you wrong, but in making sure you don't misrepresent LDS doctrine to those who aren't familiar with our scriptures.

You're very quick to judge, ApostleKnight. Try reading my post again. I edited it to try to make my thoughts more clear to you and others... something that is not always easy to do with mere words.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

And btw, notice that I edited my post above... to try to make my thoughts more clear.

As long as we agree that the unpardonable sin is denying the light and Jesus once we've had him plainly manifested to us. It does not mean murdering someone.

[Ray]

I think I can now see what you are trying to say, ApostleKnight, and I think I agree with that thought.

I was simply trying to say that some sins are “unpardonable”, through repentance alone, and we must suffer for those “unpardonable” sins… if we ever hope to receive the highest degree of salvation, instead of a lesser degree of salvation He will see fit to give us because of those “unpardonable” sins.

Or in other words, if someone receives enough light to know who Jesus Christ is, they still may not be forgiven for ALL of their sins, because some sins are too grievous to Him (and for others who were sinned against) for Him to simply forgive and forget, even if those who commit those “unpardonable” sins turn toward God and away from those sins from the very first moment they come to know or find out who Jesus Christ really is, so to be cleansed from those sins they must suffer for those sins, before He will forgive and forget.

And btw, you still have a lot of apologizing to do, to Him and me, even though I have already forgiven you.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

And btw, you still have a lot of apologizing to do, to Him and me...

Nope, not really. I have no regrets about anything I've said on this board. My conscience is as clear as a mountain stream. Thanks for your concern, though. I don't mind someone watching my six for me.

[Ray]

While it may not bother YOU to say something offensive to someone else, when it is clear that they do not deserve it, our Lord doesn't want YOU to be that way, so part of the process of becoming like Him is to do unto others as He would have YOU do unto them.

You do know you are sometimes like YOU, and not Him, don't you?

Or do you really think you have ALWAYS been like Him on this board?

Heh, yes, I think so, from what you just said. So you'll only get what is coming to you. :)

[Guest ApostleKnight]

So you'll only get what is coming to you. :)

Do you have a tracking number from UPS so I can monitor its progress?

[sgallan]

Do you have a tracking number from UPS so I can monitor its progress?

That is good. I am going to have to plagerize this one.