What is the Church View regarding Women preside over the household?

[LDSJewess]

I have been thinking about this issue for a while and after reading the other thread stated by LVLADY that led to discussions regarding a women needing permission from her husband to be baptized and/or endowed.

There were words to the effect that a man is the one who should preside over the household etc: and I suppose much of this is because just about every society in humanity has been patriarchal in nature. And with women being the nurturing ones that preside over the caring for children, this indeed makes sense.

I am far from a feminist, however, times and roles are ever changing with men and women, especially in the past 50 years or so where a very high percentage of women are in the work force.

But here is my question as pertains to my own situation:

My husband and I are a second marriage with children from our prior marriages were grown at the time of the marriage. We are 20 plus years into the marriage and it is happy and satisfactory to us both. By nature, I happen to be the spiritually stronger person. For that matter from a personality perspective, I am more likely to make the decisions etc: My husband is a wonderful man but is far more passive and less spiritual, and honestly prefers that I am the "leader" in the household as it allows him to be more "laid back".

So moving the clock 19 years from our sealing and endowments, we are both in the church and quickly becoming active. For me the Temple is the most spiritual part of belonging to the church. For my husband, it's a nice formality. Since becoming active in the church again, he said he is "not sure" he feels comfortable about full tithing (that is a long story based on our earlier days in the church which put him in serious financial difficulties), and he is "not sure" he wants to give up that cup of coffee in the morning.

Ok so here is my question: do I renew a Temple recommend for myself and go alone? According to the church laws whould I need his permission? Obviously permission is not a problem since I would never remain married to someone where I had to have permission for anything reasonable, BUT what is the church's stand on this?

Also since we have both been endowed, what does this really mean in the afterlife if one person decides he may not want to become Temple worthy?

I got to thinking about the Temple sessions where my "name" was called by him. But he doesn't even remember it now, so how does that work out?

Last question; since our children are from prior marriages, (neither of our former spouses were ever members of the church), how does that work in the afterlife. I suppose somewhere down the road they could be baptized in the afterlife and be sealed to us? But assuming they do not join the church before we die, and it is likely by the natural course of things that we will not outlive them, how does that work out?

In any event, if the husband is the one who should be presiding over this, what happens when the husband just wants to kick back and let the wife preside over everything?

AND if the wife is the presiding family member, how does she continue in her progression toward the Celestial Kingdom if she has to follow the lead of her husband?

Anyway, I think this would make for some interesting discussion that is not something that is discussed in Sunday school.

Thanks in advance for your input.

Edited July 4, 2011 by LDSJewess

[mightynancy]

I'm sure nobody would be surprised to hear that I have an issue with an individual "presiding" in a marriage. My husband and I view one another as equals and neither presides over the other. As a pair, I suppose you could say we preside over the family.

I can't imagine the Lord being pained that you take the lead in spiritual matters since that is a gift you bring to your marriage and family. Would He want you to just sit around and wait for your laid-back husband to do it? Why not have the person with those gifts and desires do it? Why should that person have to carry a Y chromosome?

If you're already endowed, I don't think the Church would require your husband's permission to get your recommend again.

I don't have any answers about how things work out in the next life. In Sunday School a couple of weeks ago, an ad hoc teacher gave a wonderful lesson on covenants. In part of it, she pointed out that each person makes covenants with God, not with the Bishop, not with the Church, but with God. Keeping those covenants despite what others do (or do not do) brings a peace to one's heart.

[classylady]

"Ok so here is my question: do I renew a Temple recommend for myself and go alone? According to the church laws whould I need his permission? Obviously permission is not a problem since I would never remain married to someone where I had to have permission for anything reasonable, BUT what is the church's stand on this?"

If I was in your situation, I would renew my temple recommend and go alone. I don't believe you would need to have your husband's permission. I would certainly discuss it with him, and see how he feels. And I also would have a very difficult time married to someone where I had to have permission for every little thing.

"Also since we have both been endowed, what does this really mean in the afterlife if one person decides he may not want to become Temple worthy?"

There is no possible way for us to judge anyone, and that isn't our job to do so. None of us are perfect, even if we are worthy to attend the temple. And we all have need of repentance. That is the key--repentance. So, I decided long ago to assume that everyone I associate with is worthy of the highest degree of glory. I understand that not all who have gone through the temple will actually be worthy of the highest degree, but it's not my place to judge. It's my understanding that if one spouse makes it to the Celestial Kingdom and the other doesn't, you will be given the chance to be with someone who is worthy.

"I got to thinking about the Temple sessions where my "name" was called by him. But he doesn't even remember it now, so how does that work out?"

My husband has also forgotten my "name" in the temple. And even I forgot my own "name". I had been endowed several years before I was sealed to my husband. There is a procedure for temple patrons who have forgotten their "name". I was given a list with several different names on it, and was asked if I could see my name there. I knew immediately which one it was. I'm assuming the temple has a further procedure in place if that didn't work. I'm not too worried about my husband not remembering my name. We've discussed about asking at the temple about it, but just haven't gotten around to doing it. Also, I believe that in the next life, we will have that memory given to us.

"Last question; since our children are from prior marriages, (neither of our former spouses were ever members of the church), how does that work in the afterlife. I suppose somewhere down the road they could be baptized in the afterlife and be sealed to us? But assuming they do not join the church before we die, and it is likely by the natural course of things that we will not outlive them, how does that work out?"

Your children could be sealed to you and your husband in the next life--that's why temple work is done. It could also be done in this life if they get baptized. One of my daughter-in-laws was sealed to her mother and her step-father. Her mother divorced her biological father (who was LDS), but her father was never worthy to go to the temple. Her mother remarried and was sealed to her second husband. My DIL, who was an adult, and already had been through the temple, was sealed to them. Also, my cousin was widowed with two children, but not sealed to her first husband--also LDS, but not worthy. She remarried, but to a nonmember. They had TEN children together. He then got baptized, and when they went to the temple, her two oldest children from her first marriage, chose to be sealed to their mother and their step-father. Again, they were adults, and had already been through the temple.

"In any event, if the husband is the one who should be presiding over this, what happens when the husband just wants to kick back and let the wife preside over everything?"

My husband is also rather laid back. If it was left up to him, we probably would never have Family Home Evening, scripture study, or family prayer. I'm the one who has to do the FHE lessons, but my husband still presides. Same with prayer--I'm the one who remembers, but my husband is the one who presides, and will ask someone to give the prayer. If he chose not to preside, such as asking someone to give the prayer, than I assume that I would do the asking. That's what I do when he isn't home.

"AND if the wife is the presiding family member, how does she continue in her progression toward the Celestial Kingdom if she has to follow the lead of her husband?"

I don't believe a wife should follow her husband to "hell". I'm not saying that's the way it is in your home--your husband sounds like a good man. But, we as women, have wonderful spiritual gifts that can be shared with our children and spouse. Sometimes, just our example can be a great blessing in the home. If you do the best that you can, then that's all you need to do. I believe that if we set the example, often times our spouse will follow (whether husband or wife). Pray for your husband. Wonderful things happen when prayer is involved.

Edited July 6, 2011 by classylady
Added quotes to make it more clear

[Guest Sachi001]

Once you are endowed you no longer need your husbands permission. You may go and see the bishopric for a recommend anytime he's available. I suggest you go and renew your endowments. From this point discussing endowments is sacred inside the Temple only. Not on this board. However it will be clear on leadership in the household afterward. If you still have questions after that then talk to your Temple president or Bishop and ask about leading the gospel in the family.

Also I do believe you have a skewed image of presiding over the Household. Both are equal in every duty except in matters of PH office only. That means doing ordinances such as blessings, anointing of the sick, baptism etc... if you are thinking of who interprets the gospel in the household that is for the one who is more righteous. If you are unsure of your husband leading in matters of gospel seek counsel from the Bishop.

You need to understand that women have the responsibility of Motherhood. It is just as important for you to raise the family in the gospel as the husband. Women teach the gospel as evident in RS lessons and talks in church during sacrament meeting. To often I see the confusing that many think God give complete autonomy of male over female in all things temporal and spiritually. This is a wrong perception. God give the authority for PH office to worthy males and even in PH office only certain males hold the keys to higher office. You are both equal other than PH offices. Sometimes women should understand that no one comes before God and mother hood is just as sacred as any PH office. Good heavens no spirits from the first estate would even have the opportunity to participate in the Plan of Salvation if it were not for Motherhood.

I suggest reading/viewing:

The Family: A Proclamation to the World

LDS.org - Mormon Messages

Gospel Principles Chapter 37: Family Responsibilities

[Martain]

I second the motion to go and speak with your bishop or temple president in regards to these questions.

My understanding is that in absense of the father, the mother presides as head of household.

If the father chooses not to exercise this duty as the father of the household, who then shall but the mother?

[LDSJewess]

Thank you all for the insight you have given me. And Classy Lady thank you for such detailed answers as it really is helping me put things into perspective.

My husband is indeed a very good man and a wonderful husband so no complaints on that front. Although there are times when I wish he would play a greater role in leadership and decision making, the plus side is that I never feel controlled or opressed by him and he is always supportive of all that I do.

This issue is more about me and the views of the church. There is that saying people in their 60's and older say.... "If I knew now what I knew today, I would have......"

Looking back on my life I have managed a number of accomplishments much fraught with struggles, but pleased with some of what by the grace of God I managed to accomplish. I did fall short by not going even further in my education, and my thirst for knowledge and accomplishment has bee a big deal to me. I didn't begin college until I was in my mid thirties and did not go on to graduate school.

I am very happily married now for over 20 years, and I love my children and grandchildren, but if I had to do it over again, I would have done many things differently, and those things would have not been what the church's views would have been for me.

I would have not married at age 18 and 1/2 and had my first child by 20 and not have even begun a college education. I would have pursued a career after obtaining a graduate degree in law and politics, and I would not have had my first child until a minimum of my very late twenties to mid thirties when I was much more emotionally and spiritually, and yes financially prepared to do so; (although the emotional and spiritual part would have been most important).

I would have had the opportunity to meet and marry someone that I felt connected to on all levels, emotionally, intellectually, physically and spiritually.

My first marriage and father of my children fell VERY short of this criteria and the result was alcoholism and abuse on his part and a very bitter divorce and children being raised without a father and supported in full by a non-educated financially struggling mother who saw little of the kids because of long hours of working just to feed and clothe them.

I was not brought up in the church, and I never had a set of parents that knew how to be parents so my frame of lreference, coupled with my youth and lack of maturity makes a huge difference in the desires of my heart and my spirit.

Holding leadership roles is important to me and a part of my very identity. We all come here with personalities and spirits that give us the drive to become our very best. I just know in my heart that my very best is not to just have babies and be a stay at home mom and have a man make decisions for me. Although I never had that, I doubt I ever wanted it either.

Sooooo, when I think of the hereafter, I think of progression. I would hope that I would progress to gain higher degrees of wisdom and obtain higher accomplishments and roles of leadership. Not every person desires this. Even here on earth, there are men like my beloved husband that is happy having someone else have the opening prayers, teach the classes and not have to bee "too involved" in anything. No problem with that. I love my husband for who he is. But in this life and the one to come I want to be the leader and the one who progresses to the heighest realms that I can become worthy of even if my husband is just ok with kicking back and chilling out.

My concern is that although I have no problem with having kids (I did my contribution of two and do not want more in this life or the next); I don't want to be held back by my husband or family members that just don't see progression as important as I do.

Hopefully this will all work out some day.

Thanks again for all the comments. It gives me things to ponder and pray about.

Meanwhile I hope not to get a calling for nursery or primary. I just don't have the skill nor the patience to deal with the little ones as cute as they can be.

[Guest Sachi001]

If the Lord decides you should get the call for primary or nursery. It's part of being a leader to accept calls you may not like. Patience is exactly what a leader needs. Leadership accepts what is asked by the Lord and expounds on that calling. He may very well be testing your patience and people skills one day. I suggest be prepared. After all Heavenly Father has to endure great patience with his spiritual children every second of everyday. Now if that's not a nursery/primary calling I don't know what is.

[Guest mysticmorini]

Idealy man and woman peside over the family in equal but different roles. I think the best way to think about it is to compare it to the Godhead. All members are Gods but each has a different role.

[estradling75]

For me on the issue of men presiding, its not an issue of the Lord offering a privilege or putting one gender over another. I think that is just an entirely wrong thought and idea that leads to all kinds of problems. Instead I see it as a commandment to men to become more Christ-like, because that is the type of presiding that is suppose to be done.

By viewing it as a commandment toward men then you can then seen the various failure as forms of sin, whither it be to dominating or total blowing it off, the severity of the sin depend on the impact it has on others. The guys failure in this matter then leads to an instance of individual adaptation spoken of in the Proclamation of the Family.

Now LDSJewess it sounds like you have a pretty good and functional relationship. If my understanding is correct then your husband is denying himself a chance to grow, to become more Christ-like, in service to you. Clearly you have adapted just fine, but perhaps treating it like you would any other area of the gospel that he might be struggling with is a better approach? Gentile encouragement, understanding, patience etc. In many ways getting him willing to try is more important then how well he does (at least initially).

[Guest]

just have babies and be a stay at home mom

"Just"? Thanks for minimizing my life. Bringing spirits into the world and raising them is my most sacred responsibility at this time, and I feel privileged to do so. I do look forward to a time in my life when there is room for other things, but this time is so short and so important.

and have a man make decisions for me

I have a righteous priesthood holder for a companion who takes his responsibilities in that role very seriously and presides over our family, but this is most definitely not how things operate. We make decisions together, and day-to-day the little decisions in running our household are mine. "Presiding" to me is more a responsibility to see that the essential things are happening, than a go-ahead to tell everyone what to do. My husband has ADD and doesn't always remember the little things, so I help him. I believe there's something about that in the Proclamation.

[LDSJewess]

"Just"? Thanks for minimizing my life. Bringing spirits into the world and raising them is my most sacred responsibility at this time, and I feel privileged to do so. I do look forward to a time in my life when there is room for other things, but this time is so short and so important.

I have a righteous priesthood holder for a companion who takes his responsibilities in that role very seriously and presides over our family, but this is most definitely not how things operate. We make decisions together, and day-to-day the little decisions in running our household are mine. "Presiding" to me is more a responsibility to see that the essential things are happening, than a go-ahead to tell everyone what to do. My husband has ADD and doesn't always remember the little things, so I help him. I believe there's something about that in the Proclamation.

Eowyn,

I truly apologize to you as I had no intention of minimizing your life. My comment was related to my personal feelings on the matter regarding MY life. We all have very different frames of reference regarding family, and honestly some of my childhood and young adult experiences are what made me decide not to be a member of the church earlier, because I knew I did not have the same sense of family that others had and at the time I felt like an outcast.

My life (to me - not to anyone else) was minimized because at the age of 18 I fled a very violent abusive foster home with a "mother figure" that had serious mental problems and was not in treatment for them. I was just a child myself when I fled that home and I had absolutely no sense of parenting skills at all. The foster mom had other kids younger than I, and it became my responsibility to care for them because she was not mentally capable, which I resented deeply because I was just a kid.

So I fled when I was 18, at the time had not completed school and went from the frying pan right into the fire and got married. I was pregnant at 19 and had my first child at 20 before I was even a legal adult. By 26 after numerous hospital visits for myself and eventually my children, I fled that home and was divorced with children; the eldest being in kindergarten and the youngest a new born. No child support, no help and too proud to stay home and let the government care for me and my children. My duty was to find a career very fast and run an entire household with minimal skills or funds. My children spent far more time in day care and after care than they spent with me at home. I cannot say that I was a good parent because I was way to busy providing for them. I did manage to complete my education at least undergraduate work which is an accomplishment for a drop out with kids.

I joined the church when I was in my 40's and my children were by then grown. The down side to that which I do regret is that they didn't become members of the church. Maybe someday, but not at this time and they are now grown with kids of their own.

So did my having children when I did minimize MY life? Yes it did. It also minimized the lives of my children and consequently my grandchildren. When a stable home life

is missing in one generation it can trickle down to the next and to the next. Contrary to belief, not everyone gets the same start in life so our journeys are different. I love the spirits I brought into the world, but if I had it to do again, they would be at 10 years younger than thye are now. Children having children is not a great idea. Today my kids say that when they were little they felt we were "growing up" together. It is indeed easier to have children and raise them in the church in a stable non violent two parent family.

My experiences taught me how to emerge as a leader and raise my kids. I would have made an amazing lawyer and holder of public office.

As for my current marriage, my husband is indeed a good man and we are both happy with our relationship. He tells me that he was attracted to me because of my strength and leadership capabilities in the home as well as in the work force. He doesn't care for women who are dependant and leaning on him a lot. I was attracted to him for his heart and his sense of values, and the fact that he is not the controlling type, gives me my space and supports me in my decisions. We went into the marriage knowing what we wanted in a spouse and our dynamics work for us. But my question is how the church views it when the woman emerges as a leader and the man prefers it that way, (by choice of both husband and wife). We are good with it, but my question was how the church feels because there seems to be a lot of emphasis on the husband taking the lead.

As for callings, I don't know if I would ever refuse a calling. Right now my calling is clerical in nature which works wonderfully for me. Many of my callings have been in the past as well such as RS, library, and teaching of older children and adults which is where my skills are.

Perhaps it is something I have to work on, but I don't do well with babies and toddlers or very young children that to me are impossible to communicate with. I don't baby sit my young grandchildren either.

I think we all come here with talents and it is best when we each use our God Given talents to the best of our abilities. My talents are organization, writing, clerical and interpersonal skills with teens through senior citizens. For others it is parenting. For some it is teaching, providing music, healing arts or a gamut of talents that bring joy to our time here on Earth. Using our talents to the fullness of our abilities enriches and blesses not only our lives but the lives of our families and those whose lives we touch. Struggling with tasks that are not our God Given talents can minimalize our lives and the lives of others around us by keeping us from using our talents.

This may not be the best analogy, but is it not better to attend a musical event performed by talented musicans like going to hear the Mormon Tabernacle Choir perform with their beautiful talented voices and their obvious love for music; than it would be to sit and listen to someone trying to play chopsticks when they have no musical talent and little interest in music themselves?

In any event I love my calling and it is no where near the primary and nursery, and I never mentioned this to my Bishop nor any former Bishop. So perhaps when they get a revelation regarding who to call for what calling, Heavenly Father prompts them according to what the talents of the members are and how we can best serve, (even before they know us).

[Guest]

I'm sorry that your experience in raising your children was not what you wanted it to be. I think we disagree on a lot of points and I'm not going to claim to know what is or was right for you. I do know that parenting is a struggle for anyone, and the baby and toddler years, while sweet in their own ways, are a struggle for me, as well. But just because something is hard or not wholly pleasant doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing it or going further, trying to find the joy in it. Additionally, I believe that this life is the time to improve and refine ourselves, and parenting for me is an enormous exercise in putting off the natural man and doing my best to do and be better.

By the time my youngest are out of the house, I'll be about 50. I do wish that I had finished college back then, but if I choose to I can go back at any time. I'll have lots of years left for a career of my choice. More years than I will have spent in child rearing. I have so many plans for that time, and I'm not certain that conquering the working world is in them- there is so much possibility for doing good in the world. I'm getting a little off-track. My main point is, I will (God willing) have lots of time to do those things, and all the while I will have people in the world to love and be loved by, and grandchildren to enjoy (and then send home at night!).

The most important point, though, is that I believe that the commandment to multiply and replenish applies to me as much as it did to Eve. I think we can apply common sense to that and say that the responsibility is extended to those physically, mentally, and emotionally able to raise children in a healthy manner. Not that it comes easy, because it doesn't for anyone, but that we do our best. I don't think that we're excused from that commandment to pursue things that are more attractive to us. I think it's not only for the children, but for us to learn to give fully of ourselves and live unselfishly and in the service of other people. I am talking about men and women here. Those are the pursuits that are not only beneficial to society (sending healthy, principled, thinking, responsible people out into the world) but eternally essential. No other success in the world can be of as much importance.

As far as the OP ( sorry for the huge detour), I maintain that presiding isn't authority as much as responsibility. The priesthood holder does have the authority to use Heavenly Father's power to bless his family, but only under His guidelines. Other than that, presiding to me means being responsible, with the help of his equal companion, to see to the physical and spiritual safety of his family. Not to be the big cheese throwing his weight around. That wouldn't fly in my house, and I don't believe that's how Heavenly Father intended it, anyway.

[LDSJewess]

I'm sorry that your experience in raising your children was not what you wanted it to be. I think we disagree on a lot of points and I'm not going to claim to know what is or was right for you. I do know that parenting is a struggle for anyone, and the baby and toddler years, while sweet in their own ways, are a struggle for me, as well. But just because something is hard or not wholly pleasant doesn't mean we shouldn't be doing it or going further, trying to find the joy in it. Additionally, I believe that this life is the time to improve and refine ourselves, and parenting for me is an enormous exercise in putting off the natural man and doing my best to do and be better.

Thank you for your thoughts. I used to feel sorry about my experiences, and in fact I even pondered why I had to experience what I did. But all these years later, I am really at peace with it and with myself, and definitely with God. I had a talk with my 43 year old son last night and sometimes we get into discussions regarding the past and the difficulties that we had. But as my son put it so eloquently in words, "we would not be the man or woman we are today had we not experienced what we did." Yes we have regrets, but those regrets also come with complete understanding and acceptance for ourselves and each other.

By the time my youngest are out of the house, I'll be about 50. I do wish that I had finished college back then, but if I choose to I can go back at any time. I'll have lots of years left for a career of my choice. More years than I will have spent in child rearing. I have so many plans for that time, and I'm not certain that conquering the working world is in them- there is so much possibility for doing good in the world. I'm getting a little off-track. My main point is, I will (God willing) have lots of time to do those things, and all the while I will have people in the world to love and be loved by, and grandchildren to enjoy (and then send home at night!).

I believe you can do whatever you feel is best for you. For me it is not about career or conquering the working world. It is more about being fulfilled and using my talents given to me by God to my fullest potential. I do not think child rearing is less in any way for those that have the talent and desire for it. But I also do not believe it is wise to have children at the wrong time in their lives when the parents are not mature enough for the task. I was simply much too young and immature to parent the way children should be parented.

The most important point, though, is that I believe that the commandment to multiply and replenish applies to me as much as it did to Eve. I think we can apply common sense to that and say that the responsibility is extended to those physically, mentally, and emotionally able to raise children in a healthy manner. Not that it comes easy, because it doesn't for anyone, but that we do our best. I don't think that we're excused from that commandment to pursue things that are more attractive to us. I think it's not only for the children, but for us to learn to give fully of ourselves and live unselfishly and in the service of other people. I am talking about men and women here. Those are the pursuits that are not only beneficial to society (sending healthy, principled, thinking, responsible people out into the world) but eternally essential. No other success in the world can be of as much importance.

I do not regret having children. I simply regret having them when I too young and immature. I know we will have to simply agree to disagree on this one because I truly see it differently. Indeed I have considered that having children at a young age can be also for selfish reasons and it would be better that the commandment to multiply and replenish the Earth would be done responsibly with maturity, wisdom, and acquired skills to be a good parent. I also believe children should not be brought into the world as a sacrifice or duty on the part of the mother.

As far as the OP ( sorry for the huge detour), I maintain that presiding isn't authority as much as responsibility. The priesthood holder does have the authority to use Heavenly Father's power to bless his family, but only under His guidelines. Other than that, presiding to me means being responsible, with the help of his equal companion, to see to the physical and spiritual safety of his family. Not to be the big cheese throwing his weight around. That wouldn't fly in my house, and I don't believe that's how Heavenly Father intended it, anyway

I totally agree with you here that presiding is not about authority, rather it is responsibility. Where we differ and the point of my OP is that everyone comes into this world with talents and abilities that allow them to perform their responsibilities to their highest potential. I am not a bra burning feminist, and I have no desire to change church policies, and no desire to hold a priesthood. BUT if it were possible I would be a better priesthood holder than my husband because he does not desire to have a lot of responsibility in a spiritual regard. I on the other hand find responsibility and leadership very challenging and fullfilling. In my husband's first marriage, he was the one who wanted children and wanted to be with his children as much as he could. He often smiles and says he would have made a good mom. I think the bottom line is to love God and become as Christ Like as possible. I do not believe that all men are best at providing and all women are nurturing based on whether they were born with XX or XY chromosomes. It may seem to be the norm, but there are exceptions and we must be the best we can be by using the talents we came here with.

On a lighthearted side, (my husband and I share a lot of dry humor) we got into a conversation about the CK and how men could become exaulted and eventually preside over another world. I told him I thought it was well worth preparing for something so incredibly exciting. And he smiled at me and said, "You would make a great leader of a planet, but I just see it as way too much work." I do know that eternally having babies is not my idea of a blessing. But again, we each come here with something different and wonderful to offer in this world and the next. It's all good. :)