Dealing with spouse's ex-roommate (on my soapbox)

[trubludru]

The purpose of posting this is to vent as much or more than seeking advice. So I have only been married for short time and I feel like myself and my wife are hitting the learning curve in some areas.

{begin venting}

One of the ongoing issues in our relationship is her now ex-roommate. My wife since moving out of her mom's house has only ever lived with roommate "X" and lived with roommate "X" for more than 7 years straight before marrying me. Needless to say they developed quite a close relationship over the years to the point (in my judgment at least) to being closer to each other than either of their respective families. Now roomate X has what I'd describe as a queen bee personality - the need to be charge, be right, and be involved in anybody's and everybody's business whether she is welcome to or not, (not to say she doesn't have redeeming qualities). Where as my wife generally tends to be more passive and laidback and shy in most circumstances. I feel like this led to my wife being dominated by X for most of her adult life and since she never really experienced any other situation this became the "normal" situation for her. In practice, they basically became each other's significant other for social events, going to family events, work parties, etc with each other.

Now the first time I talked with my wife and was trying to flirt with her etc see if she was interested in me. X was with her and in my experience most people would realize at some point, "Oh that guy is flirting with my roommate/friend I'll back off a little" but no X kept butting in to the conversation. But other than slight annoyance because I did get future wife's phone number (and X's despite not asking for hers), I didn't think too much; but now I realize why my wife didn't really get asked out on a lot of dates.

Needless to say I felt like there was a lot of third wheel action going on while we dated. And despite that fact that I was really liking wife (then girlfriend) I was growing increasingly frustrated with feeling like I was in nearly as serious a relationship with X as was with wife and seriously considered breaking up with her over it at more than one point. I on several occasions brought up situation with wife and told her it made me uncomfortable and disgruntled because I often felt like I was dating her and her roommate and that while roommate was nice I felt like we needed more opportunities with just us two (outside of the couple of hours we had on formal dates each week). Wife expressed that they (her and X) were just used to doing everything together with each other for so long that it was just sort of habit and that she would work on it. Well things did improve somewhat over time so I felt satisfied that things would resolve.

But things like X inviting now 'us' to dinner with her family (about 40 min drive away) and trying to get us to stop by her family on Christmas day still continued and wife still feeling like X should still come all of her family events with us still continued. So I brought up situation again and wife said yeah X has always come to X so I'm not going to tell her not to come and I thought well what does it really matter if X comes to big family party where there are 30 people.

Anyhow I felt comfortable enough with siutation and things were good otherwise so I proposed and we got engaged. Well this led to a resurgance of X as she realized she was losing my wife so to speak. I can only say this led her to being involved in wedding plans as much as any proverbial mother-in-law. But there also seemed to be the realization on part of X and wife that yeah things would no longer be exactly the same after marriage. So I wasn't feeling too worried. So we got married and went on enjoyable honeymoon although I'm pretty sure X texted wife a few times about non-crucial things while we were on honeymoon. But we had a open house a few days after we got back and it seemed like as soon as we got back it was like all of the sudden X was over all the time and wife hardly paid me any attention. Now I understand wife was excited to see X because I don't ever think they had been apart from each other for that long, but all of the sudden I was just a fixture whenever X was around for the three days between when we got back till the openhouse. This led to me breaking down and bawling my eyes out in the storage room just before the openhouse because I felt invisible to my wife everytime X was around. But I pulled myself togther and told myself to quit being so sensitive about things and man up so to speak.

After all the wedding stuff ended things seemed to reach a more normal situation. X wasn't around all the time but wife is still able to do stuff with her once a week or so, seems like win-win all around. I felt like things had taken a turn for the better. But for the past couple of weeks it seems like when wife sees me when we get home in the evening I get like a "hey" and a head nod sort of greeting and she doesn't hug me or kiss me or even sit near me unless I am the one that does the hugging or kissing etc. But then when X comes by or calls wife gets all excited and happy. Now I don't object to wife being happy to see or talk to X but wonder why I only rate the "hey" sort of attitude one reserves for that co-worker you see but never really talk to. And yes I've been trying everything I can think of to show wife I love and care about her, written her love notes, hidden chocolate in her lunch, helped out with the cooking, the dishes, the laundry, still take her out on dates, try to compliment her on regular basis, give her hugs and kisses without trying to initiate sex. But I still get the hey and X gets the excitement so I am starting to feel very frustrated and neglected

Which brings to this weekend. So we both had a long day Saturday, she had to work a pretty long shift at work and had spent all day doing yard work and chores and an unsuccessful plumbing repair. Well X calls and wife seems to be a good mood and talks to X for a while. So a little later, hoping to cheer things up a little and help us both relax after a long day, and hopefully be a little romantic, I turn the shower on and go try to lead her seductively to the bathroom. And I get a why is the shower on? So I put my hands on her hips and give her a squeeze and I get a "why would we shower?" (in what I felt was a I think your crazy if I'm going to shower with you and you better get your hands off me sort of tone). So now I feel like the mood has switched from tired and worn-out to irritable and any chance of romance has been killed and whether or not it was the frustrations of the day or frustrations of feeling like X is getting more of her love and attention than me and how dare I try to shower with me. I said very saracastically, "Yeah why would we shower." and stormed off. So I didn't speak to her the rest of the night because I was frustrated and angry and didn't really trust myself to say anything else without calming down.

Sunday morning comes and she wakes up with some congestion and doesn't seem to be feeling to well and decides not to go to church. So I am wanting to talk to her and try and figure out why I get the 'hey' treatment lately and she can't be bothered with a little romance or time with me despite talking on the phone in a pretty good mood with X for quite a while. But it is time for church and I figure wife will just want to go back to bed for awhile so I go to church. Well I get back from church and wife isn't home, but vehicle is which means she went to X's (X lives a short walk away). So now I'm angry again because wife is to sick to go to church but not enough to go over to X's. Well had planned on having my friend and his wife who I hadn't seen in quite a while over for dinner along with X. So wife doesn't come home for quite a while so I decide well I better get everything ready myself so I do. And after that I finally text wife and ask if she is coming home for dinner. So she comes back with X and basically ignores me until dinner, during dinner, and afterward while we played a game. So my friend and wife leave but X stays despite the fact it seemed fairly obvious to me there was a situation going on that wife and I need to resolve. X finally decides to leave after 9:00 pm but wife decides to walk her to her car apparently feeling the need to talk to her more even though it seems they've been together for about 7 or 8 hours already. So after wife is out there for fifteen to twenty minutes I'm starting to get frustrated again because I feel like wife would rather talk to X then take time to talk to me. So I finally flash the porch lights and X leaves and I finally get to talk to wife.

So we work out that it was a miscommunication with the shower event but I decide I have to broach subject of X again feeling like from my viewpoint that for past little while wife seems more excited to talk to X than go out of her way to pay me any attention and that I feel neglected and like I have to compete with X for wife attention which leads to me resenting X (who really overall is a nice person despite the troubles I have with her) and getting frustrated and angry in situations like shower event. Wife seems to feel I am generally being irrational and that I knew how close she was to X since we first started dating. I explain yes I knew that but that we had also talked about it previously and I am still having problems with the situation and don't want the situation and my feelings about it to get out of hand. Because yes I do understand wife is tired after getting home from work but don't understand why I get a hey but X calls and it is chat chat with her. Wife says she doesn't understand me because she spends most evenings with me and a try to explain that it isn't the amount of time but that it is I don't get more than a hey.

And then against my better judgment I brought up issue of X and family events trying to explain it isn't that X isn't welcome to come to somethings once in a while but that it is a little unrealistic and unfair (to our relationship) and frankly a little weird to have X along at everything she can come to as tends to be the case. For instance, wife wants to go to her visit her brother's family Labor Day weekend (it would be a spend a couple of nights sort of event) but wants to bring X along because X has always gone with her the past few years. So I express that I am uncomfortable with that because I feel like it will be her and X having a great time with brothers family who I don't know very well yet and I will just sort of be there getting ignored. So I knew this would upset wife but feel like it has to be said at somepoint. So currently wife is upset, I'm upset to have to have upset wife, but I admitted to her while may be feeling to hypersensitve about some stuff, but feel like she needs to know how I feel about the issue so it doesn't cause more problems down the road. But it didn't seem like there was any real concensus yet between wife and me as to what is ok with X and to why I feel neglected.

{End Venting}

So to sum up I feel like wife can and should still be friends with X. But wife needs to learn that X shouldn't be so involved in some aspects of wife's life now that wife is married, and that it would help me if I felt like wife was putting more effort into our relationship because I feel ignored in favor of X (In short that wife's relationship with me should be far more important than relationship with X, no matter how long they were roommates).

I need to try to not be so hyper-senstive about X. But I do need to be assertive about the importance of my needs in my relationship with wife while being senstive her feelings and her friendship with X. And I need to aware that wife (and I) are still learning and figuring out this marriage thing.

X needs to make some new friends so she be somebody else's problems, but honestly she needs to realize that as a friend she is causing more harm that good by being so heavily involved in wife's life and that she should take a step back and not feel entitled to come to everything with wife even if she did so before.

[MorningStar]

I take it her friend isn't married? I would suggest inviting over lots of single guys to fix her up with.

[trubludru]

I find myself in an extremely difficult situation. It has been four weeks since the initial fight, things seem even worse then the first couple of days and my hope for a happy marriage is starting to fade. My wife says she can't trust me and is still very upset. I have tried everything I can think of to do on my end to make things right. I have tried repeatedly talking to her to try and discover what it is that I have done that has made her so upset. She generally just says she just doesn't feel like she can trust me and I am a totally different person than when we were engaged (i.e. I was caring then but now I am just selfish and jealous). So I ask for things I have done that make her feel that way, and the only things she seems to be able to come up with (other than the roommate issue which I feel is still somewhat unresolved but established that yes she can still do things with her old roommate but I still think she is relying solely on roommate for her emotional needs) is that I kept waking her up in bed by putting my arm around her/cuddling even though she told me she had a tough time sleeping on our honeymoon and that I repeatedly asked her to do things she wasn't comfortable with or I tried to do things she wasn't comfortable with during sexual intimacy. I replied that I was sorry I had made it tough for her to sleep and could see how that was frustrating but had misunderstood what she said on honeymoon to be more along the lines of not being used to sleeping in the same bed as someone and therefore was not sleeping real well, so it wasn't that I was deliberatly ignoring her just that I hadn't understood what she had said. As far as intimacy issues I didn't really know how to respond...and I won't go into detail but I felt like anything I had asked for or did was pretty vanilla maybe like saying it might help her feel more sexy/set the mood to put on some lingerie once in a while. She says that she hasn't really felt much during intimacy that really feels good so I had tried a few things I had read in "They were not ashamed" and that is about it. So I can only say I want intimacy to be a good experience for her instead of just a chore and that means I am trying and asking her to try a few things to help her feel pleasure but all I get is a negative attitude and response from her so how can I make it enjoyable? And she didn't really have a response and basically seems unwilling to put forth a solution or accept any of the solutions I have put forth to resolve these or any of the other issues that have come up to resolve the problems or avoid them in the future. And so far I don't feel or see how either of these issues are the earth-shattering destroy all trust and confidence in the marriage sorts of issues that she is seeing them as.

Otherwise besides trying to talk through things, I have tried to give her space at times to think through things, I have cooked almost every single meal we have had together, I have left her love notes, bought her flowers, told her I love her pretty much everyday, I have done my best to apologize and explain that I want her to be happy and that I want relationship that works for both of us and I haven't tried initiate intimacy at all during the past four weeks lest she think I am just doing it to get sex. I have talked to roommate x to try and get a feel for if there was somehting obvious I was missing but x really didn't seem to have any answers either and seemed to be taking a fairly honest and neautral stance (wasn't hostile towards me anyway). I have asked my wife if she appreciates any of these things and get sort of an ambivalent response that yeah she appreciates things but feels like I am doing only for some sort of alterior motive or something. We have both talked to our Bishop, and we have started seeing a conselor. But so far she is unwilling to fulfill the first thing the conselor asked us to do which was just to have 6 six second hugs daily. So far the most we have gotten is 2. There have been a couple of days where I feel like she sees all that I am doing and almost realizes that she is being ridiculous but then the next day it is back to she can't trust me and she just feels so upset.

And we have been married for just over two months, and so basically for half that time at this point, this situation has been going on, she has been sleeping in the other room, does the minimum to pitch in around our house and basically generally does her best to avoid interacting with me.

I have the feeling that there is some larger issue(s) at play then what she says she is upset about but I don't see how I can get her to tell me seeing as how she doesn't really want to talk with me at all if she can avoid it. I have considered things like birth control causing her to be depressed or cause some other sort of hormonal imbalance but she claims she feels normal except for being upset. She comes from a divorced family (happened when she was 15) and I'd have to say her mom is pretty disfunctional so I can see there could easily be some issues there (especially trust, feeling loved, healthy coping techniques.) There are also allegations that her biological father may have sexually abused at least one of her older sisters (and therefore possibly my wife as well) but nobody has any direct evidence and none of the girls in the family can really clearly remember anything. So I really wonder if my wife was abused and now with the sexual component of marriage it has caused a reaction to those events. But I can really only guess.

I really do love her and want things to work out but am really starting to doubt after a month and no real improvement and nothing that has come up as upsetting should cause a response like this. The few signs I have that she has any desire to be with me is that she will still have evening prayers with me, still wears her wedding ring and hasn't moved out. Which isn't a whole lot. I don't know what else to do and being her emotional punching bag can only slowly choke and kill the love I feel for her. I feel like I am doing everything in my power to heal our relationship including asking Heavenly Father for help, but I still feel helpless so long as my wife continues the way she has been. One month isn't that long in the scheme of things but right at the beginning of a marriage to have a situation like this.....I want things to work out but it grows tougher and tougher to remember the gentle and caring woman I fell in love with and married when all I hear from her is that she can't trust me and that I am selfish and jealous.

[Jennarator]

I am sure I am wrong, but why does the whole Ross and his first wife from "Friends" keep poppong into my mind?? Sorry I don't mean to go there, but sounds like talking to the bishop or a counsler might be a good idea.

[trubludru]

I am sure I am wrong, but why does the whole Ross and his first wife from "Friends" keep poppong into my mind?? Sorry I don't mean to go there, but sounds like talking to the bishop or a counsler might be a good idea.

We have both talked with the Bishop and will continue to meet with him, but I think he was sort of baffled about why my wife felt so upset with me. He told us there were times where he or his wife had left for a few days because they were upset but that you can work through things. I hope he can receive some helpful inspiration but I think he was as baffled as I have been.

And we just started meeting with a conselor but so far my wife has shown tepid interest at best in doing the "homework" the counselor gave us. I can see she has at least some desire to fix things (willing to talk to Bishop and counselor) but seems unwilling to actually do anything or take action to resolve whatever it is that has her so upset.

[Jennarator]

If all else fails, move far away....from the exroomate....

[trubludru]

Yeah but I think where things stand at the moment she would be more likely to move back in with roommate then move with me. And I have talked to the roommate who realizes there is a problem (seems to be aware that wife needs to work on marriage relationship more rather than spend time with roommate and to my knowledge has encouraged wife to work things out).

Edited August 12, 2011 by trubludru

[Jennarator]

Yeah but I think where things stand at the moment she would be more likely to move back in with roommate then move with me.

Sad....

[Truegrits]

I am sure I am wrong, but why does the whole Ross and his first wife from "Friends" keep poppong into my mind??

I also had the thought that it seems to be more than good/best friends.

[Just_A_Guy]

--Don't force the situation with the ex-roommate.

--Do the counseling.

--Don't make babies.

--Don't make any big financial commitments.

--Re-evaluate in six months.

[Gwen]

You need to address the trust part of it. You need to know very specificly what caused that break in trust. The women I know who lost trust in their husband for some reason can tell you exactly when and what that moment was and her best friend knows. It doesn't matter how foolish it sounds to you, it's very real to her. Treat it that way and start there.

[Jennarator]

I just hate to see a good man that tries so hard and his wife not even notice.

Guess since I had such a horrible husband (first husband) it's sad.

I see this happen once in a while and I think how sad that the wife just takes all she has for granted. How I hated to go to church and see this going on, what I would have given for a man like that.

Now I have one, and thank him daily for all he does for me. Right now I am pregnant and sick and he takes good care of me.

I really hope she "wakes up" to what she has before she looses you. Then she will be sorry.....

[MorningStar]

I admit, I also wondered if there is something weird going on between your wife and her friend, but it might be that she was indeed abused and is freaked out by sex. I'm sure she knows logically that it's important in marriage, but for people who have been abused, it can trigger terrible memories. I think with all newlyweds, it is wise for the husband to let his wife lead and decide what she's comfortable with.

[MarginOfError]

Once again I will step in the fray and probably step into it, but here goes.

Reading your posts, all I hear is "I do everything men are supposed to do for their wives...I'm so wonderful...I'm a great, caring, sensitive husband...something is wrong with my wife."

I don't buy it. I was with you until the trust issues. If she says she doesn't feel like she can trust you, she's got a reason. And if she's afraid to share that reason with you, it means that there's something wrong with you (at least in her perspective). My guess is she's afraid of what your reaction will be if she does tell you. I recommend some soul searching and sincere effort to identify your own flaws and work on those instead on only pointing the finger at her.

[trubludru]

Well there is no chance of making babies at the moment and yeah not a good idea in the near future. I feel like the trust issue is the key as well and that it involves sexual relations specifically but I for the life of me can't figure out anything I've really done that is out of line, as far as I can tell I've only tried and asked her to try very vanilla sort of things, but I understand she may see things much differently. So far any specifics she has mentioned hasn't seemed to pan out in any sort of real discussion or that it is what really upset her, which leads me to the belief there is an issue somewhere in trust and sexual intimacy she isn't willing to communicate or there is something from her past playing a role and that whatever it is I did to break trust was mainly a trigger rather than the real issue.

For example she has said one of the reasons she cannot trust me is the lack of sleep issue of me waking her up by trying to cuddle because I had just ignored (from my perspective I clearly misunderstood) what she said on our honeymoon. Well I feel like that was easily resolved by me explaining that I had misunderstood and will avoid cuddling with her when is asleep but also that we both need to make sure we keep communicating if we think the other didn't understand what we said. So I don't think that was the specific thing more like something she came up with to support whatever the real issue is.

But yes I am committed to do the counseling because I think it will help having the third party but remain doubtful for a positive outcome unless she will communicate specifically what the main issue is for her and be willing to take action to resolve it. I am willing to do what I can to fix things and am aware that it may be something I have done or am doing that has helped cause the problem but I can't really change things if all I get is the run around in the communication department. And I think it will remain difficult for her to communicate as long as she maintains such emotional distance from me. I'm not ready to walk away yet but it is difficult to have such a prolonged bad situation so early in the marriage, but maybe better now then later?

Edited August 12, 2011 by trubludru

[Jennarator]

Definatly better now, than later!

Not that I would reccomend divorce. Do all you can to save the marriage, but yes, I stayed about 9 years and two children longer than I should have and now have to live with that choice.

[trubludru]

Once again I will step in the fray and probably step into it, but here goes.

Reading your posts, all I hear is "I do everything men are supposed to do for their wives...I'm so wonderful...I'm a great, caring, sensitive husband...something is wrong with my wife."

I don't buy it. I was with you until the trust issues. If she says she doesn't feel like she can trust you, she's got a reason. And if she's afraid to share that reason with you, it means that there's something wrong with you (at least in her perspective). My guess is she's afraid of what your reaction will be if she does tell you. I recommend some soul searching and sincere effort to identify your own flaws and work on those instead on only pointing the finger at her.

Very uncalled for, I have spent many restless and sleepless nights overanalyzing anything that I've done, been doing, said etc. to try and determine if I have done something terrible. I have asked her repeatedly to tell me what she is upset about and that we can work through it. Before we got engaged I shared some situations from my past that she should be aware of and that being open and honest about problems was important to allowing the relationship to function. I have made every honest effort in every way I can think of to resolve the problem and done my utmost to remain calm and respectful while trying to work things out. Have I gotten a little heated and raised my voice and said some hard things (along the lines of What am I supposed to do? I suggest ___ is the problem and __ is the solution, you say no, so I suggest ____ and you say you are just upset about everything, so I ask you what you want to do to fix _____ and I get: I don't know. So how are we going to fix things? or Why would I want to go spend our vacation with your roommate when I am basically going to get ignored by you most of the time?), yes a couple of times, but have I ever threatened her, verbally abused her(told her she was worthless or that if she loved me she would do X) No. Have at times said: I'm struggling with feeling left out of your life because you have such a close relationship with your old roommate. and I'd like us to have that sort of relationship but that is tough to acheive when I feel like you never want to share things with me but you will with her.

Fact: I want to see her happy and her concerns addressed so we can have enjoyable relationship.

Edited August 12, 2011 by trubludru

[Guest]

It kind of sounds to me like she's one of these girls that wanted the boyfriend, then the wedding, but didn't really think through to the marriage part of it. She still wants to hang out with BFF and not have the responsibilities of nurturing a relationship with a husband. . . in other words, she got her wedding, and now maybe expected to going back to how things were before. It sounds like she needs to grow up to me. Not that that helps you a whole lot. But I echo the idea that you need to not make any babies with this woman until it's clear that she's wholly in the marriage and willing to do her part to make it work. I'm sorry that you're in this situation.

[Gwen]

You may have some of your answers (or clues) in your own posts. Forgive my random thought process, I've spent a long time trying to organize it and it's just not going to happen today. Some days are better than others.

There is little that can destroy trust in a relationship faster than misuse of the sexual relationship. There is no subject in marriage harder to get good communication on than the sexual relationship.

The birth control pills can be having an effect on her libido and ability to experiance pleasure without causing depression or other emotional issues. It may be a factor.

If you ask something repeatedly, especially in the act, that puts a lot of unnessary pressure on a relationship. It can take a lot of courage just to say no the first time. If there is something she said no to or you are really interested in that she might have reservations about ask her about it at a time when there is no pressure to perform and don't then ask right after the conversation to try things out. Talk about it in a "safe" way for her.

You may have felt like you didn't ask for anything that wasn't "vanilla" but it doesn't change how she may have felt about it. Whatever it was, if you can understand it or not, it was real to her. You really need to try not to dismiss her over reaction and try to understand. Every time you say you can't understand it, call it an over reaction (or anything close to that) you are less likely that she will ever talk to you about it.

Has she read "and they were not ashamed"? Be careful what books you do turn to, though I do think that is a good book. Ones that only offer "sexual pleasure is mostly emotional for a woman" aren't helpful. Sometimes the answer is physical and that can come off as a scapegoat answer to take all responsibility off the man. She may not offer a solution because she doesn't have one. Don't underestimate how devistating it can be for her to discover sex didn't feel or go like she thought it would.

If the ex roommate is as close to her as you say she knows exactly what is wrong and she will never tell you.

2 months seems rather early to be itching to introduce other things.

You need to try and understand it from her perspective. Do you know anything about her history of sexual development? I'm not just talking about the obvious big things, first kids, etc. I obviously don't want answers here, just food for thought....

When/how/where/how did she react to learning about basic procreation? When/how/where/react to learning about about periods? When/where/how/reaction to learning about things beyond basic procreation? How old was she when she started her period? How did she feel about it? When/how/where/react to learning about masturbation? Has she ever masturbated? Has she ever been in an adult store? What's her opinion on them?

What are your answers to all those questions (well the ones that apply, I doubt you started your period but you learned about it at some point)? How does your history compare to hers? Are you equally yolked sexualy?

You may think these things have nothing to do with your issue at hand but they may really have everything to do with where she is coming from.

She needs to own and be accountable for her sexuality. Has she even fully developed sexually?

[MorningStar]

It could be you two have very different ideas of what "vanilla" is. A close relative of mine almost married a guy who blurted out that he wanted (insert crude term for oral sex) on his wedding night. It seems he spent so much time thinking about this (and probably talking to his friends about it), it seemed like a normal thing to say. I know someone else whose husband didn't request it, but made a move trying to get her to do the same. She was completely repulsed by the behavior because he was insensitive and made the assumption that that would be something she would want to do.

Most women I know who are virgins don't think that far ahead. They're too busy worrying about getting naked in front of someone and whether their husband will be disappointed by the way they look, whether it will hurt, whether it will ever feel good, and then there's the issue of getting used to the male anatomy. To put it mildly, it's not love at first sight.

We have no idea what other "vanilla" things you asked for besides asking her to wear lingerie, but that should have been her own decision when she gets comfortable. She might have taken that the wrong way. Really hard to say what exactly the problem is because we don't know either of you. It could be she has a severe problem or it could be you don't understand how women think.

As far as her friend goes, it does sound like they have a weird relationship and they both need to grow up. Friendships change when you get married and then even more when you have kids.

[Guest mormonmusic]

It wouldn't surprise me if X has put certain ideas in her your wife's head. I don't know for sure, but I find it hard to believe that people that close wouldn't still be sharing EVERYTHING, including things best held in confidence between husband and wife.

I like Just-A-Guy's advice. Don't lock yourself into this with mortgages, children, or other things that make it hard to back out. I see these as very important issues that need to be resolved before you make any significant life decisions related to marriage.

Even if what we are hearing here is one-sided (and I tend to think it isn't, but who knows), YOU are very unhappy right now, and you need to feel a healthy amount of happiness if you are going to have a child, get a mortgage, or make other big commitments. You sound like you are trying, and you also need to be satisfied that wife is as well. She needs to keep her commitments in counselling, and issues with X need to be resolved.

Based on what you say, X meets some very important needs in wife's life, and vice versa. If you can figure out which needs X meets in wife, that might give you clues about how to improve your marriage if you can meet those needs better. At some point, you need to be more important to wife than X, and the relationship needs to improve before you make any decisions that deepen the commitment.

And by the way, physical distance between you and wife and X will help. I did the same with Wife and Mother-In=Law and it was great. Been the best thing for us, although it was not without MIL kicking and screaming at times, and accusing me of being too controlling and such, in spite of my plopping down significant coin for flights home once every 8 to 12 months, long distance plans, and stays as long as 3 weeks to a month of her family members in my home with their young kids.

However, be sensitive to how it might affect yoru marriage if your wife is having a hard time seeing your behavior as normal, and her relationship with X as abnormal.

[trubludru]

It is true there could be wildly varrying ideas of vanilla, but trust me the only other thing besides lingerie was to basically to try participating rather than lying there. No oral sex or anything really of that nature. So I feel like yes she could be very senstive in that department and yes I understand there is "breaking in" that needs to occur. And there may be very well something I said off the cuff or some such thing that she feels was out of line. I fully admit I am a human male and have an imperfect understanding of women and that I probably did something that at the least set in motion a series of unfortunate events and at the most was very offensive even if I didn't realize it. I am well aware that her feelings have been hurt and that it will take time to fix. I am willing to work on fixing or changing or apologizing or whatever it takes but I can't do that when the main course of action so far is to distance herself emotionally from me and be unwilling to discuss specifically whatever it is that was/is the problem

I'm not trying to make out like I'm without blame or that I've been totally perfect but I shouldn't have to be either. I'm doing my best and I am trying to fix the problem I helped create and it seems like I am no closer after a month than I was to begin with no matter what I do, and it seems like she isn't willing to do very much to help me fix it or extend the smallest amount of forgiveness. So I do start questioning the long term big picture a bit.

I appreciate the helpful advise, I will try to see if she will talk more specifically about problems with sexual intimacy etc to see if that helps. Also we do have "And they were not ashamed" we started reading it before things went bad, which lead to me asking her to try and do more than just lay there becuase she probably wasn't getting much stimulation in the right areas. But maybe things are just too uncomfortable for her at the moment(well as of several weeks ago) to really be able find it very enjoyable no matter what.

So I'm not sure there is much more that can be said today, one of the main reasons I have posted about this on the forum is to try and get some perspective and feedback without dragging relatives, friends, etc too much into it (they know there is a problem and a select few I trust the most to give me some straight answers I have consulted on the sexual intimacy and in general about whether I am totally off the wall on the roommate issue etc ) because I don't want them to have a tainted view of my wife afterwards. I hope the issue can be resolved and she can be happy. If there is a bigger issue (abuse or whatever) hopefully that will come out in counseling. I hope to have something positive to report in the future but right now I am just trying to hang in there.

[Jennarator]

SOunds like you are doing what you can. It will take time. Glad you are willing to take that time. Good luck!

[Guest mormonmusic]

Also we do have "And they were not ashamed" we started reading it before things went bad, which lead to me asking her to try and do more than just lay there becuase she probably wasn't getting much stimulation in the right areas.

This isn't the first time I've heard people say that!! I can't remember in what context, but I heard someone else tell me that when they get married, they don't want to be married to a dead fish that just lies there while they, the person with the complaint, are the active one. So, there are others out there that just lie there as passive recipients thinking that's what sex is.

Also, I've heard from more than one source that things do get better after a while as people get more comfortable.

I feel for you, that's for sure. Although my issues in my marriage are different, I had many a time when the words "I married a dud" came to my mind involuntarily. Many needs went unfulfilled. Sorry for the blunt statement, but the thought occurred to me when every important need I had -- physical fulfillment,help around the house, good parenting, respectful teamwork, and just plain being nice were all missing, were not valued, and came with no desire to learn those skills either -- in spite of counselling.

I share this only for empathy reasons -- I feel some of your pain, frustration and emptiness....

[Gwen]

Is part of the problem she just doesn't know what to do? You have read a book about her and her needs and yes women are usually the harder one to figure out. But does she have any basic sex ed? Sexual desires are normal and natural and often involuntary but sex isn't. Sex isn't intuitive, it's not something we naturally know how to do, it's learned, takes practice.

If she was very strict in keeping the law of chastity she wouldn't know what a guy looked like beyond the drawings in biology class, much less touched them. The parts are all foreign and possibly not all that attractive to her. No offense to your ego intended. What woman wants to admit that?... Especially if her husband is trying so hard and she isn't confident enough in her own sexuality to enjoy herself.

If the birth control pills are negativly impacting her libido and ability to climax on top of it all she could be to lost, confused and embarassed to be able to talk to you about it. She is getting no physical pay off to push her to want to learn.