Apostasy?

[Dr T]

Hello all,

Talking to Ray started me thinking more about the concept of apostasy. (thanks Ray!) Since the LDS church claims an apostasy, I'm wondering what the signs that it happened. Could anyone tell me what that would be like, look like, feel like? What if the LDS church is in another apostasy right now. How would you know? How did the believers during the time of teh apostasy feel during that time? Were they aware? Did they continue to hold fast to their beliefs? Were those beliefs "good enough" for God because they were sincere? Did the sincerity not hold any water? I know you are not mind readers and you can't speak for them but what are your thoughts on those types of questions?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Traveler]

I would think that history would stop progressing to the point that knowledge would go backwards and that historians would later identify the collapse of truth and the laps into apostasy unlike any other time and highlight the lowest part with a classic name like the "Dark Ages".

The Traveler

[Dr T]

(sidenote, Traveler,

In another thread you said Caucasians were the first people here not natives or mexicans. Do you have any resources that claim that?

Thanks,

Dr. T)

[Traveler]

(sidenote, Traveler,

In another thread you said Caucasians were the first people here not natives or mexicans. Do you have any resources that claim that?

Thanks,

Dr. T)

I do not think I said that. According to most scientist the so-called natives came to the Americas (in two groups) between 20 and 60 thousand years ago. I understand from the evidence that these early inhabitants were extremely primitive hunter gathers. Their hunting was of small game such as mice and they had limited use of fire and tools - example they ate their meet raw (not even basis stone age).

It has been my belief that the rise of civilization (both the Pre Classic and Classic) in the Americas did not come from these primitive rain forest hunter gathers that after 20,000 years suddenly turned around and in less than 200 hundred years walked out of the rain forest and invented large cities, written language, arts, complex science, large social structures in mega cities, educational institutions and sophisticated trade systems. It is my belief that the rise of civilization in the Americas was due to migrations and I believe the migrations most likely occured form locations that had already developed similar civilizations.

This notion is heald by many scientist including Thor Heyerdahl. You can google his name for more information.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

So it wasn't you that said that? Hopefully the person who said it can let me know.

Thanks

[Ray]

Hello all,

Talking to Ray started me thinking more about the concept of apostasy. (thanks Ray!) Since the LDS church claims an apostasy, I'm wondering what the signs that it happened. Could anyone tell me what that would be like, look like, feel like? What if the LDS church is in another apostasy right now. How would you know? How did the believers during the time of the apostasy feel during that time? Were they aware? Did they continue to hold fast to their beliefs? Were those beliefs "good enough" for God because they were sincere? Did the sincerity not hold any water? I know you are not mind readers and you can't speak for them but what are your thoughts on those types of questions?

Thanks,

Dr. T

How do you think sincerity from people who are worshipping God truly manifests itself?

Or in other words, do you think people who are sincere in worshipping God can NOT do what He has commanded… bearing in mind that Faith and Repentance are primary commandments from God?

I think as we follow Him we’ll see with His light, and never again see “Dark” Ages. And as we learn from the scriptures we learn from those people who wrote what they saw on those pages.

[pushka]

Quote:

'Of course, the first peoples on the North American continent were Caucasians/whites. Later other groups wiped them out or assimilated them. Between then and now other groups landed on the shores of the Western Hemisphere (Nephites/Lamanites) and contributed to the population.'

I did a search for inhabitants, because I couldn't find anything for Native Americans which led me to the source. It was Fiannan that said the above words, I will find in which Thread and modify my post to show that in a moment..my memory is like a sieve!!

http://www.ldstalk.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=7058&st=25

So Who's Going to call it Racism?

[Dr T]

Thank you Pushka. Fiannan, can you give me a source for that?

Thanks

[Traveler]

BTW - Dr T: We have kind of gotten away from your question about indications of the apostasy. So I was wondering - What do you think would indicate Apostasy? In individuals or in entire societies? Must it include a full turn-around in everything or some subtle changes at critical points?

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hey Traveled One,

You are correct. We have gotten away from the OP. It is my fault. I apologize.

About apostasy, you ask,

What do you think would indicate Apostasy? In individuals or in entire societies? Must it include a full turn-around in everything or some subtle changes at critical points?

that is exactly my question. I am not the expert on this issue. I thought that the LDS members here have heard about it, read about it, have had discussion about it, etc. and would be the appropriate people to ask about it. My initial thought though, were that apostasy was complete not partial. I look forward to learning about what is taught to LDS members.

Dr. T

[Traveler]

Hey Traveled One,

You are correct. We have gotten away from the OP. It is my fault. I apologize.

About apostasy, you ask,

What do you think would indicate Apostasy? In individuals or in entire societies? Must it include a full turn-around in everything or some subtle changes at critical points?

that is exactly my question. I am not the expert on this issue. I thought that the LDS members here have heard about it, read about it, have had discussion about it, etc. and would be the appropriate people to ask about it. My initial thought though, were that apostasy was complete not partial. I look forward to learning about what is taught to LDS members.

Dr. T

I will answer with my opinion concerning apostasy. In general apostasy is a deviation from a prescribed or standard set of concepts. In this case we are speaking of religious truths. Anciently the concept of religion did not exist. The scriptures instead refer to a “path” or “way”. In reference to Jesus Christ the correct way I believe was comprised of several parts. Following is a list that may not be comprehensive:

1. Kingdom = A organization based on the ancient concept of kingdoms and not modern ideas of social structures.

2. Ordinances = Prescribed methods of initiating and binding standard covenants, commandments, doctrines, relationships, duties and other such things.

3. Rituals = Defined methodologies of standard religious behaviors.

4. Authority = Comes from Kingdom structures and who is authorized to act in proxy for G-d within his kingdom. Must be given and not taken or assumed.

5. Doctrine = The basis of belief.

In Matt starting in chapter 5-7 a summery of several stages of apostasy are summarized by Christ. Example, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” He also defines “wolfs” in sheep clothing intending to destroy the flock.

As to the great Apostasy the Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS rely on what Jesus told Joseph Smith concerning churches and why he was not to join any that existed at that time. There were three main categorizes:

First: Ordinances had been altered

Second: Doctrines had been miss-interpreted

Third: The creeds were an abomination (falsely claimed to be G-d’s will)

In relationship to the First: We have experienced an “evolution” of sacred ordinances such as baptism and the breaking of bread according to the last supper

In relationship to the Second: We now have historical evidence (Dead Sea Scrolls and historians like Josephis) that there was an effort beginning as early as 74 AD. To modify scriptures and doctrine concepts for both Jews and Christians.

In relationship to the Third: The use of creeds were not used among the Jews or Christians until the introduction of paganism in Christianity by the influence and force of the pagan Roman Empire.

What then followed has become classically known by students of history as the “Dark Ages”. This is a short summery - Hope you get the idea.

The Traveler

[JohnTaylor1886]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hey Traveled One,

You are correct. We have gotten away from the OP. It is my fault. I apologize.

About apostasy, you ask,

What do you think would indicate Apostasy? In individuals or in entire societies? Must it include a full turn-around in everything or some subtle changes at critical points?

that is exactly my question. I am not the expert on this issue. I thought that the LDS members here have heard about it, read about it, have had discussion about it, etc. and would be the appropriate people to ask about it. My initial thought though, were that apostasy was complete not partial. I look forward to learning about what is taught to LDS members.

Dr. T

I will answer with my opinion concerning apostasy. In general apostasy is a deviation from a prescribed or standard set of concepts. In this case we are speaking of religious truths. Anciently the concept of religion did not exist. The scriptures instead refer to a “path” or “way”. In reference to Jesus Christ the correct way I believe was comprised of several parts. Following is a list that may not be comprehensive:

1. Kingdom = A organization based on the ancient concept of kingdoms and not modern ideas of social structures.

2. Ordinances = Prescribed methods of initiating and binding standard covenants, commandments, doctrines, relationships, duties and other such things.

3. Rituals = Defined methodologies of standard religious behaviors.

4. Authority = Comes from Kingdom structures and who is authorized to act in proxy for G-d within his kingdom. Must be given and not taken or assumed.

5. Doctrine = The basis of belief.

In Matt starting in chapter 5-7 a summery of several stages of apostasy are summarized by Christ. Example, “Whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” He also defines “wolfs” in sheep clothing intending to destroy the flock.

As to the great Apostasy the Members of the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS rely on what Jesus told Joseph Smith concerning churches and why he was not to join any that existed at that time. There were three main categorizes:

First: Ordinances had been altered

Second: Doctrines had been miss-interpreted

Third: The creeds were an abomination (falsely claimed to be G-d’s will)

In relationship to the First: We have experienced an “evolution” of sacred ordinances such as baptism and the breaking of bread according to the last supper

In relationship to the Second: We now have historical evidence (Dead Sea Scrolls and historians like Josephis) that there was an effort beginning as early as 74 AD. To modify scriptures and doctrine concepts for both Jews and Christians.

In relationship to the Third: The use of creeds were not used among the Jews or Christians until the introduction of paganism in Christianity by the influence and force of the pagan Roman Empire.

What then followed has become classically known by students of history as the “Dark Ages”. This is a short summery - Hope you get the idea.

The Traveler

Ordinances continue to be altered...take into consideration that administration of the sacrament has changed as well as the ordinance of baptism for health was taken away.

[LionHeart]

Hello all,

Talking to Ray started me thinking more about the concept of apostasy. (thanks Ray!) Since the LDS church claims an apostasy, I'm wondering what the signs that it happened. Could anyone tell me what that would be like, look like, feel like? What if the LDS church is in another apostasy right now. How would you know? How did the believers during the time of teh apostasy feel during that time? Were they aware? Did they continue to hold fast to their beliefs? Were those beliefs "good enough" for God because they were sincere? Did the sincerity not hold any water? I know you are not mind readers and you can't speak for them but what are your thoughts on those types of questions?

Thanks,

Dr. T

To me, one of the biggest indications of an apostasy in the early christian Church is the fact that through the dark ages, if you wanted to get rid of someone, all that was neccesary was to accuse them of witchcraft. That in it's self was a death sentence. Once accused, the victim was subjected to the most dire torture in order to cause them to confess their sin. Innocent or not, the victim eventually decided that death was a better alternative to the torture; at which point, they would make a false confession and get burned at the stake. And who was it that was behind the confession extracting torture? None other than our brethren the clergymen. I have never read anywhere when Jesus or Peter ever ordered the torturing of someone on suspicion of whitchcraft; or any sin for that matter.

[Guest Sh1n1ng F0rc3]

Dr. T,

I believe you are asking a difficult question in that while an apostasy occurred, it did so many years ago and while if one occurred today it would share similar characteristics it would also appear different for various reasons (different cultures, different values etc..). Ultimately what lead to the original apostasy or according to the original Greek term defection, was both internal and external forces. We would see radical beliefs on both sides of the doctrines (as evident in Christ's times by the Christian Jews who ran to one end of the spectrum or the other) from within. Much of this confusion about the doctrine was caused by the restored church and its assimilation of many different faiths without quick and solid communication between the believers from those who had authority through the priesthood to clarify and declare doctrines. This would lead to great schisms in the Church itself and we would see large numbers of followers breaking off becuase of one or two doctrines. Second while there were many external causes of the apostasy in Paul's time which lead to serious physical fighting and death I think one today would be more subtle and rhetorical in that outside forces would use (and do right now) slick political and scientific arguments to eat away at the church and its doctrine causing a more secular or political entity to arise which would hold sway not only over Spiritual matters but would seek to exhert its authority for wealth and power. The Spirit of course directed the faithful even during the original apostasy as evidenced by Paul's letters to the believers who were being persecuted on all sides for holding to the faith. Open rebellion against the Lord's annointed and the defined doctrines of the church would clearly constitute apostasy. Sorry this ran on......

[Dr T]

Hi Sh1n1ng F0rc3,

No need to apologize. It wasn't even long. I loved reading your thoughts. It is kind of late and I've very tired. I'll have to reread it and respond later. It is nice to meet you and I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

We would see radical beliefs on both sides of the doctrines

...

one today would be more subtle and rhetorical in that outside forces...would...eat away at the church and its doctrine causing a more secular or political entity to arise which would hold sway not only over Spiritual matters but would seek to exhert its authority for wealth and power.

Hey Sh1n1ng F0rc3, glad you joined the board. Welcome. I think you summed it up rather well. The nature of an apostasy in our age would be vastly different because of changes in technology and so forth. In the early second and third centuries, if a bishop in Rome taught a false doctrine, church members in Carthage might not hear about it until a following had developed behind the false doctrine. Today with the internet and global digital connections everyone's acts are laid bare to the lens of communal examination.