Circumcision

[volgadon]

Why, when it is described as a lower law and a lower priesthood?

Perhaps because it is an arrogant, condescending attitude of superiority?

"Lower law"and "lesser priesthood" do not imply a lower mindset, nor a primitive one. The Melchizedek Priesthood has more ordinances and more keys, yet that doesn't make the Aaronic Priesthood lower, more primitive.

I speak of this because it is a principle that has been manifest in the church of God in this generation as well as in others. I had the administration of angels while holding the office of a priest. I had visions and revelations. I traveled thousand of miles. I baptized men, though I could not confirm them because I had not the authority to do it.

I speak of these things to show that a man should not be ashamed of any portion of the priesthood. Our young men, if they are deacons, should labor to fulfil that office. If they do that, they may then be called to the office of a teacher, whose duty it is to teach the people, visit the Saints and see that there is no evil or iniquity carried on. God has no respect for persons in this priesthood any further than as they magnify their callings and do their duty (Discourses of Wilford Woodruff, sel. G. Homer Durham [salt Lake City: Bookcraft, 1946], pp. 297–98).

The same holds true for the Law of Moses. It contains profound spiritual lessons and truths in its rituals and proscriptions. I recommend actually studying the Old Testament more.

You are characterising many of my friends and neighbours, as well as my ancestors and great men and women throughout the ages as primitive and lower. We can do without such gospel arrogance and borderline Zoramitery

[Guest mysticmorini]

Perhaps because it is an arrogant, condescending attitude of superiority?

I've met a few Jews who have that have that attitude because they are "of the house of Israel" and you cant honestly study judaism without realizing that being jewish is better.

"Lower law"and "lesser priesthood" do not imply a lower mindset, nor a primitive one. The Melchizedek Priesthood has more ordinances and more keys, yet that doesn't make the Aaronic Priesthood lower, more primitive.

The scriptures do say it is a lesser priesthood. I suppose you could argue about whether or not it is more "primitive" but to say that primitive equals derogatory is fallacious. The restored church is modeled after the "primitive" church.

same holds true for the Law of Moses. It contains profound spiritual lessons and truths in its rituals and proscriptions. I recommend actually studying the Old Testament more.

You are characterising many of my friends and neighbours, as well as my ancestors and great men and women throughout the ages as primitive and lower. We can do without such gospel arrogance and borderline Zoramitery

I've seen plenty of that from your ancestors, etc. I think you are taking primitive and lower as derogatory when that isn't necessarily the case. I read it more like they were simpler, easier to understand ordinances.

[Dravin]

I've met a few Jews who have that have that attitude because they are "of the house of Israel" and you cant honestly study judaism without realizing that being jewish is better.

Maybe you don't intended it as such but that reads as a type of tu quoque argument.

[Guest mysticmorini]

Well I had to look that one up. No I didn't intend it as an argument, just my observation.

[Seminarysnoozer]

You are characterising many of my friends and neighbours, as well as my ancestors and great men and women throughout the ages as primitive and lower. We can do without such gospel arrogance and borderline Zoramitery

If you want to lie and twist what I said into calling people primitive and lower then I can see how you would be so defensive. I didn't though. I said it was a primitive "mindset". If you want to misinterpret that as something else I don't have any defense. "Mindset" refers to the physical situation not the spiritual. I would say the "mindset" is as different as the average deacon class compared to the average high priest class. If you want to say that the high priests have the same exact lessons as the deacons with the same words and examples then you must be going to a different church then the one I go to. Likewise, the tokens and teachings were tailored to that mindset and that situation, people (as a whole) who could not handle the higher law.

"Primitive" is a relative view. Since we are all sitting behind the veil we could all be called "primitive". To me that is not offensive at all. Our spiritual selves would see our physical mind as very primitive. If I raised our current situation higher than it is, then that would be arrogant but I did not do that. Suggesting that I made an arrogant statement is wrong, unless you think there is no "lesser" or "greater" designation to be made.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Exodus 34:1–2

" 1And the Lord said unto Moses, Hew thee two other tables of stone, like unto the first, and I will write upon them also, the words of the law, according as they were written at the first on the tables which thou brakest; but it shall not be according to the first, for I will take away the priesthood out of their midst; therefore my holy order, and the ordinances thereof, shall not go before them; for my presence shall not go up in their midst, lest I destroy them.

2But I will give unto them the law as at the first, but it shall be after the law of a carnal commandment; for I have sworn in my wrath, that they shall not enter into my presence, into my rest, in the days of their pilgrimage. Therefore do as I have commanded thee, and be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me, in the top of the mount."

When the carnal mind prevails because of failure to obey the higher law, I don't think it is in error to say that that is a primitive mindset. Maybe it is not the best word but how else would one describe the state of carnal focus? and carnal law? It is certainly a different set of circumstances than we are in now.

[Just_A_Guy]

A semi-related update on that proposed San Francisco circumcision ban.

[volgadon]

I've met a few Jews who have that have that attitude because they are "of the house of Israel" and you cant honestly study judaism without realizing that being jewish is better.

And there are plenty of LDS who feel that way about LDS themes, Catholics on Catholic themes, Protestants, Napoleonic wars uniform enthusiasts, and philatelists. So?

The scriptures do say it is a lesser priesthood. I suppose you could argue about whether or not it is more "primitive" but to say that primitive equals derogatory is fallacious. The restored church is modeled after the "primitive" church.

Yes, the scriptures do say it is lesser, they don't however say that those who held or hold to it are of a lower, primitive mindset, which is the opinion Snoozer expressed.

I've seen plenty of that from your ancestors,

Oh, really. Considering that to the best of my knowledge you and I have never met, that is an interesting statement.

etc. I think you are taking primitive and lower as derogatory when that isn't necessarily the case. I read it more like they were simpler, easier to understand ordinances.

You'll forgive me for remianing unconvinced that "lower" was meant in a positive way, or that Snoozer was using "primitive" in the sense of "original."

[volgadon]

Exodus 34:1–2

When quoting from the JST you really ought to mention it.

[slamjet]

Sorry, couldn't help myself

And for the general theme of this thread:

And because I like it when things come in three's:

[volgadon]

Slamjet, you forgot the line from "Men in Tights."

-I'll have two, please.

[volgadon]

If you want to lie and twist what I said into calling people primitive and lower then I can see how you would be so defensive. I didn't though. I said it was a primitive "mindset". If you want to misinterpret that as something else I don't have any defense.

I fail to see how I've misinterpreted that, unless you were using an extremely idiosyncratic definition of "mindset." In which case you can hardly blame me for misunderstanding.

Let's replace the word "mindset" with some of its standard definition and see if there is any improvement.

"The context of living under the mosaic law and having that lower, primitive mental inclination, tendency, or habit is something that most of us can't do with a flip of the switch, I would imagine."

The context of living under the mosaic law and having that lower, primitive attitude, disposition, or mood is something that most of us can't do with a flip of the switch, I would imagine"

"The context of living under the mosaic law and having that lower, primitive fixed mental attitude or disposition that predetermines a person's responses to and interpretations of situations is something that most of us can't do with a flip of the switch, I would imagine."

[Guest mysticmorini]

I still dont see why you are so offended.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I fail to see how I've misinterpreted that, unless you were using an extremely idiosyncratic definition of "mindset." In which case you can hardly blame me for misunderstanding.

Let's replace the word "mindset" with some of its standard definition and see if there is any improvement.

"The context of living under the mosaic law and having that lower, primitive mental inclination, tendency, or habit is something that most of us can't do with a flip of the switch, I would imagine."

The context of living under the mosaic law and having that lower, primitive attitude, disposition, or mood is something that most of us can't do with a flip of the switch, I would imagine"

"The context of living under the mosaic law and having that lower, primitive fixed mental attitude or disposition that predetermines a person's responses to and interpretations of situations is something that most of us can't do with a flip of the switch, I would imagine."

I don't know of anyone who is currently living under the law of Moses with a living prophet, guided by God, do you?

I believe it to be a lesser law due to failure to abide by a higher law so it pertains to more primitive matters, mostly focused on the law of carnal nature. To me that is a primitive or first steps law. I don't see why that is so offensive or would in any way offend any current friends. The law of Moses doesn't relate to any current religion any more than the Church of Christ relates to Catholicism or branch of the original Church of Christ so that statement certainly wouldn't be offensive to any current living person or religion. The law of Moses guided by a living prophet does not exist today. We have moved to a higher law. "Higher" meaning the other was "lower" and therefore more primitive. When we become adults in that respect we put away things of our childhood.

[volgadon]

I don't know of anyone who is currently living under the law of Moses with a living prophet, guided by God, do you?

What has that got to do with anything, unless you are suggesting that not living under living prophet, guided by God = a lower, primitive mindset.

To me that is a primitive or first steps law. I don't see why that is so offensive or would in any way offend any current friends. The law of Moses doesn't relate to any current religion any more than the Church of Christ relates to Catholicism or branch of the original Church of Christ so that statement certainly wouldn't be offensive to any current living person or religion.

Please tell me that you are kidding.

[Guest mysticmorini]

Please tell me that you are kidding.

In the sense that seminarysnoozer meant that comment, its right, the law of moses is a dead law.

[volgadon]

In the sense that seminarysnoozer meant that comment, its right, the law of moses is a dead law.

What sense might that be.

[Seminarysnoozer]

What has that got to do with anything, unless you are suggesting that not living under living prophet, guided by God = a lower, primitive mindset.

Please tell me that you are kidding.

It has to do with the idea that what I said was offensive to currently living people, your friends.

There is no current religion living the law of Moses as it was lived back then that I know about, which was a religion guided by a living Prophet back then. No, I am not kidding about that.

The reason I said that is because I think (maybe I am wrong) that some people think that Judaism is like the law of Moses. In fact there was a reference to that in this thread by someone. Is that religion guided by a living prophet?

So, all in all, we do not know what it was like to live under the law of Moses, we know very little about those circumstances and what was the "mindset" (probably a bad word, still can't think of another) or spiritual knowledge the average person under the law of Moses had. That is an important context to know when discussing the reasons for certain tokens and their symbolic significance.

The value of a lesson depends on how much a person knows. And the lesson is different depending on how much a person knows. That is why the a person who has lived all their life in the church can still go back and read the scriptures and learn something new each time. What word would you use to describe the line upon line position a person is at in their learning, maybe spiritual knowledge is better but that leaves out their carnal state. I think their carnal state is also important in terms of what lessons are important in that token.

[volgadon]

It has to do with the idea that what I said was offensive to currently living people, your friends.

There is no current religion living the law of Moses as it was lived back then that I know about, which was a religion guided by a living Prophet back then. No, I am not kidding about that.

I hate to burst that bubble, but a living prophet is not considered the salient point of the Law of Moses, so the notion that your statements aren't offensive because nobody really lives by the Law of Moses seeing as they don't have prophets hasn't a leg to stand on.

The reason I said that is because I think (maybe I am wrong) that some people think that Judaism is like the law of Moses. In fact there was a reference to that in this thread by someone. Is that religion guided by a living prophet?

I obviously can't stress this enough. THE central tenet of Judaism is that Jews are a covenant people of God, and that abiding in the covenant means following the 613 positive and negative commandments contained in the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses is central to Judaism (and to Samaritans), so to claim that The law of Moses doesn't relate to any current religion is patently absurd.

[volgadon]

Here is something I had written almost two years ago on one of the traditions associated with circumcision.

In chapter 29 of Pirkei de-Rabi Eliezer, a pseudepigraphic work dated by most scholars to sometime around the Muslim conquest, several legends are related regarding circumcision. Circumcision was the sign of the covenant between the Lord and his people, and it was practiced by all the house of Israel until they split int two kingdoms. The kingdom of Ephraim (Israel) stopped its citizens from circumcising, which caused the covenant to be broken. Elijah arose in a fit of jealous or zealous rage, (the two words in Hebrew are identical) and swore the heavens to let no dew or rain fall upon the land.

As a result jezebel tried to kill Elijah. He prayed unto the Lord, who asked him if he were better than his fathers, listing many, from Jacob to David, who were forced to flee for their lives. Elijah gets the not-so-subtle hint, and takes off into the wilderness. Here the Lord again speaks to him and Elijah says that he has been zealous for the sake of the covenant, and the Lord replies that he has always been zealous.

By your life (an oath), Israel shall not circumsize a soul unless you behold it with your own eyes.

As a result, the sages made a seat of honour for the angel of the covenant, as it is said (Mal 3:1): and the messenger of the covenant whom ye delight in cometh. The God of Israel shall hasten and bring in our lifetime a messiah to comfort us.

In Sephardic and Eastern synagogues there stands a special chair, Elijah's chair.

Whenever a boy is circumcised, before being given to the godfather, he is placed in that chair (which is decorated with myrtle leaves), to be held by Elijah, who is present, but unseen.

The congregation then recites a line from Psalm 118:26, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"

I myself was circumcised (whole other story, for a different time), it was in a Morrocan synagogue, and I too was placed in the Elijah seat.

Personally, I rather like the symbolism. It is through the agency of Elijah that we, as latter-day saints, are able to enter into some of the most precious and most sacred of covenants with the Lord, covenants that truly turn children's hearts to their fathers.

[volgadon]

Also, there is a newer tradition, called Zebed ha-Bat, a devotional party held for baby girls, during which they are given their name.

[Saldrin]

I am guided by a current prophet of God.....

[Seminarysnoozer]

Here is something I had written almost two years ago on one of the traditions associated with circumcision.

In chapter 29 of Pirkei de-Rabi Eliezer, a pseudepigraphic work dated by most scholars to sometime around the Muslim conquest, several legends are related regarding circumcision. Circumcision was the sign of the covenant between the Lord and his people, and it was practiced by all the house of Israel until they split int two kingdoms. The kingdom of Ephraim (Israel) stopped its citizens from circumcising, which caused the covenant to be broken. Elijah arose in a fit of jealous or zealous rage, (the two words in Hebrew are identical) and swore the heavens to let no dew or rain fall upon the land.

As a result jezebel tried to kill Elijah. He prayed unto the Lord, who asked him if he were better than his fathers, listing many, from Jacob to David, who were forced to flee for their lives. Elijah gets the not-so-subtle hint, and takes off into the wilderness. Here the Lord again speaks to him and Elijah says that he has been zealous for the sake of the covenant, and the Lord replies that he has always been zealous.

By your life (an oath), Israel shall not circumsize a soul unless you behold it with your own eyes.

As a result, the sages made a seat of honour for the angel of the covenant, as it is said (Mal 3:1): and the messenger of the covenant whom ye delight in cometh. The God of Israel shall hasten and bring in our lifetime a messiah to comfort us.

In Sephardic and Eastern synagogues there stands a special chair, Elijah's chair.

Whenever a boy is circumcised, before being given to the godfather, he is placed in that chair (which is decorated with myrtle leaves), to be held by Elijah, who is present, but unseen.

The congregation then recites a line from Psalm 118:26, "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!"

I myself was circumcised (whole other story, for a different time), it was in a Morrocan synagogue, and I too was placed in the Elijah seat.

Personally, I rather like the symbolism. It is through the agency of Elijah that we, as latter-day saints, are able to enter into some of the most precious and most sacred of covenants with the Lord, covenants that truly turn children's hearts to their fathers.

I appreciate you sharing your extensive knowledge on these subjects, thanks. Could you explain what you mean by "agency of Elijah". Between what and what did he have agency over?

[volgadon]

I appreciate you sharing your extensive knowledge on these subjects, thanks. Could you explain what you mean by "agency of Elijah". Between what and what did he have agency over?

Try D&C 110:13-16 and 128:16-19.

[Colirio]

I'm new to the site, so, I apologize if I am restating something obvious to everyone else.

Genesis 17:11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you.

12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed.

Joseph Smith Translation of Genesis 17:11 And I will establish a covenant of circumcision with thee, and it shall be my covenant between me and thee, and thy seed after thee, in their generations; that thou mayest know for ever that children are not accountable before me until they are eight years old.

The token of circumcision at eight days old was made in order to remember that children were not accountable to God until they were eight years old. It was established with an outward token and symbol (as most covenants are) so as to be remembered from generation to genenation by the seed of Abraham. A rereading of Genesis 17 demonstrates the covenants to the seed of Abraham.

( I suppose it would be tough symbol to forget... )

The tokens and symbols of all our covenants are established by God. Each has a deep meaning that help us remember events that will happen or have happened and that allow us to draw closer to our Savior.

Judging by verses 3 - 7 in the JST I also assume there was a lot more going on than what we might have guessed.

Joseph Smith Translation

Edited August 1, 2011 by Colirio