Baptism questions

[Lilac]

I'd like to ask a few more questions on baptism. (I posted a few things on my son and a baptism)

The missionary ran down a few questions that they would be asking my son in the "formal interview".

I can't remember all of them but two of them stuck out. 1. Have you ever been involved in an abortion or homosexual acts 2. Have you been arrested/criminal history

(Background info., I was a Baptist and have been baptized as an adult so I am familiar with the general process of a believer's baptism)

Why is this important to ask a convert?

Aren't all sins the same and washed clean by the blood of our Savior? Why are these particular sins singled out?

I have not been involved in any homosexual acts, abortions, criminal activity etc. but I do not like someone asking me that, to be brutally honest. I feel that as a sinner, we come to Christ carrying a lot of baggage and that is the purpose of the baptims, to wash our sins away and to cleanse us as we become a new creature in Christ. My past sins are gone forever, washed white as snow.

Whether I had an abortion at age 15 (which I did not) or whether I had did anything else that is a no-no...isn't that the purpose of baptism? To wash those sins away? There is only Person who knows me intimately and that is God. I am still a loved Chid of God who desires baptism.

Is one sin worse than the other? This sounds Catholic to me, like there is a venial sin and a mortal sin and confession to a priest for the sins....

Why are certain things asked? Isn't it assumed that we are all a mess before we come to Christ?

And if you answer "yes, I had an abortion when I was 15" or "yes, I explored homosexuality in college", so then what happens? I would have to discuss this with another person? I can't even imagine the shame someone would feel at having to go through all that with a stranger...or explain your sexual past? If it was really complex like "oh yeah, I had tons of abortions back when I was bisexual" do you have to explain all of that but having one abortion at age 15 gets a pass?

When I expressed the desire to be baptized as a young adult, the questions were more like "do you love the Lord with all your heart, mind and soul". "Do you accept Jesus as your Savior". "Can you explain the message of salvation?" What I did in the past is irrelevant because we are starting new today, with a new life in Christ.

Thank you in advance for answering my questions. :)

[estradling75]

Because the Church is not Christ. Barring direct revelation from God the leaders of the church will not know the intents of a persons heart.

A baptism is only as good, and as cleansing, as the power of the faith and repentance of the person being baptized. Without those you are just getting wet.

All sins are bad before God but certain sins have greater impact on a persons life then others. The questions that stand out for you are questions that society is more and more is saying its ok to do, but by God's standard is a serious sin. The questions will not stop someone who has performed such act and then come unto Christ forsaking all the sins of their past life. It will stop those that think they can stand in both worlds.

[Suzie]

And if you answer "yes, I had an abortion when I was 15" or "yes, I explored homosexuality in college", so then what happens? I would have to discuss this with another person?

The missionary who performed the interview would speak to his mission president and the person would probably have to meet with a member of the Mission Presidency.

[Lilac]

No one can ever know the intentions of a person's heart. We all hope that when a person gets baptized that their faith is strong and it will last a lifetime.

Sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn't. Every church has that issue of people who were baptized and then sorta disappear.

Why can't you ask a person where you stand on those issues currently rather than past history? If a person has a current solid testimony, that should carry far more weight than what they did when they were 15, young and did not know Christ.

[Lilac]

The missionary who performed the interview would speak to his mission president and the person would probably have to meet with a member of the Mission Presidency.

So, you would have to meet with other humans, who are equally as sinful as the baptism candidate, and they would be in judgment of the candidate? To determine if they are worthy of baptism? To determine if they are really sorry? How can a human ever know another person's heart or intention? You can't. You have to take them at face value. If you are going to baptize the person anyway, then why ask about specific sins then?

I'm really uncomfortable with that. I would think a "I have done things that have broken God's laws and I am truly sorry for my sins" would be enough.

If I knew I had a closet full of various serious issues in my past and then would have to get called in to discuss them with men, I'd run far from the baptism.

I didn't know there were baptism questions like that. I assumed they were "do you love the Lord with all your heart" type questions. Like where the person is now in their spiritual journey. I only heard two of the baptism questions. Are there others? Maybe I would have to speak to a Bishop too then? I'm certainly not perfect and did stupid things...I'm glad this came up with my son because I had no idea.

(I'm sorry that sounded confrotational, I didn't mean it to be but I don't know how to soften up my question. I really am typing with a pleasant tone!)

Edited July 28, 2011 by Lilac

[estradling75]

Why can't you ask a person where you stand on those issues currently rather than past history? If a person has a current solid testimony, that should carry far more weight than what they did when they were 15, young and did not know Christ.

That is what the question leads to. They are however sensitive topics that 19+ year olds have very little practical experience dealing with so it gets bumped up to someone with more experience.

They ask about the situation at the time to determine why it happened and ask about how they have changed in attitude and behavior from that point to now. Their current outlook toward their past behavior is what makes the difference.

And yes they are all flawed human beings, much like all the prophets and apostles in the bible. Yet in spite of their many flaws they are the ones God put in charge of running things here on earth. Which is why the baptismal questions also ask if you believe that the church has been restored to the earth through Joseph Smith.

[Lilac]

I do see what you are saying...not sure I agree but I do get your point.

If I can ask you more...

I believe sin is separation from God. Anything that breaks God's Law is a sin. They are equal in God's eyes. We are all sinners and in need of a Savior. God's grace and mercy extends to all, irregardless of what you have done or left undone.

Why does a baptism interview focus on an abortion then?

(By the way, I am very pro-life, I don't want to sound like I'm pro-choice here.)

I just cannot picture someone doing an interview and then you are asked about some particular sin and you honestly answer "yes" and then you get referred over to the Bishop. It am actually shocked at that, to tell you the truth.

I fully expected to be asked questions about who I am now and what I believe in now. I can answer any personal question about my behavior now.

I am just really suprised that they stop the interview and some red flag sins get referred to a bishop. If the sin is going on now, yeah, of course that needs to be addressed. Maybe the candidate needs to have some more classes on God's Laws. I'm with you 100%.

Are some sins considered worse than others?

[estradling75]

I do see what you are saying...not sure I agree but I do get your point.

If I can ask you more...

I believe sin is separation from God. Anything that breaks God's Law is a sin. They are equal in God's eyes. We are all sinners and in need of a Savior. God's grace and mercy extends to all, irregardless of what you have done or left undone.

Why does a baptism interview focus on an abortion then?

(By the way, I am very pro-life, I don't want to sound like I'm pro-choice here.)

I just cannot picture someone doing an interview and then you are asked about some particular sin and you honestly answer "yes" and then you get referred over to the Bishop. It am actually shocked at that, to tell you the truth.

I fully expected to be asked questions about who I am now and what I believe in now. I can answer any personal question about my behavior now.

I am just really suprised that they stop the interview and some red flag sins get referred to a bishop. If the sin is going on now, yeah, of course that needs to be addressed. Maybe the candidate needs to have some more classes on God's Laws. I'm with you 100%.

Are some sins considered worse than others?

It the eyes of God all sins are bad because of the separation. In the eyes of humanity all sins are not equal because they are harder to completely repent from and forsake.

We believe that God has given the authority to act in his name and perform the necessary ordinances of the gospel to flawed human beings. He has also instructed these flawed humans to not allow anyone unworthy to partake. This requires mortal judgement (barring God making his will known). For baptism the requirements are three. Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The desire to forsake all sins (Please note the word desire no one is perfect but the desire needs to be strong) , and the willingness to join flock of God (aka the church). The failure to retain people after baptism is because for one reason or another the new convert loses one of the three.

All the baptism question focus on given the flawed human that is called to make a judgement enough information to make the best judgement they can. Experience has shown there are certain areas that need greater resolution. Abortion stands out to you, others areas would stand out to other people.

[Lilac]

If you have a strong testimony currently and appear to be truly sorry for your past transgressions, then after prayer and conversations, that should be enough for a person to be an eligible candidate. Aren't these the people that we want to bring to Christ?

Yes, certain sins do carry heavier baggage and damage to the soul but that should not be a deciding factor in who gets baptized. So then why ask? It just grates on me like "oh, that one is a bad one, you need to be referred to someone else to determine if you can be baptized" (don't mean to be disrespectful but that is truly how it sounds to me). What difference does it matter how the sin happened? Sin is sin.

If you are offering counseling, spiritual or otherwise, that is fine and is optional. I'm fine with someone saying "do you have issues that you would like to discuss further or recieve counseling on?" I think that is kind and caring for the human soul. No problem with that.

I personally haven't lived a very spicey life. I could probably do any interview and be fine. Or reasonably fine. (Much thanks to my mother who taught me about God) But what about the person who has lived far outside of God's Laws? I'm certainly no better than they are.

I am just having a lot of trouble with this. I'm sorry. My baptism interview with the Baptists was nothing like this at all. It was all about Jesus. It was not about what I did in the past but rather, what Jesus did for me.

I never thought about it in terms of "worthy or unworthy". I think we are all unworthy of anything holy and it is through Jesus we are given the gift of worthiness through salvation.

I guess I need to speak to someone directly in the church because this bothers me deeply. I didn't know that the LDS had different thoughts on this. It is true that you can talk apples and oranges and not even realize it.

Thanks for your time.

Many blessings.

[Guest gopecon]

I appreciate your questions and concerns. I think that the reason that some sins are treated as bigger than others can be for a couple of reasons. One is that they can be lifestyle based. A willingness to leave them shows the true level of commitment of the new convert. As has been mentioned earlier, baptism itself does a person no good without repentance from sins. As there are some sins that require confession to a bishop (judge), the authority for determining sufficient repentance for these same types of sins is held with the mission president and not delegated to the interviewing missionaries. Abortion involves taking or preventing life. While it is not referred to as murder, it is a very serious offense that can not be casually repented of.

[estradling75]

If you have a strong testimony currently and appear to be truly sorry for your past transgressions, then after prayer and conversations, that should be enough for a person to be an eligible candidate. Aren't these the people that we want to bring to Christ?

Yes, certain sins do carry heavier baggage and damage to the soul but that should not be a deciding factor in who gets baptized. So then why ask? It just grates on me like "oh, that one is a bad one, you need to be referred to someone else to determine if you can be baptized" (don't mean to be disrespectful but that is truly how it sounds to me). What difference does it matter how the sin happened? Sin is sin.

If you are offering counseling, spiritual or otherwise, that is fine and is optional. I'm fine with someone saying "do you have issues that you would like to discuss further or recieve counseling on?" I think that is kind and caring for the human soul. No problem with that.

I personally haven't lived a very spicey life. I could probably do any interview and be fine. Or reasonably fine. (Much thanks to my mother who taught me about God) But what about the person who has lived far outside of God's Laws? I'm certainly no better than they are.

I am just having a lot of trouble with this. I'm sorry. My baptism interview with the Baptists was nothing like this at all. It was all about Jesus. It was not about what I did in the past but rather, what Jesus did for me.

I never thought about it in terms of "worthy or unworthy". I think we are all unworthy of anything holy and it is through Jesus we are given the gift of worthiness through salvation.

I guess I need to speak to someone directly in the church because this bothers me deeply. I didn't know that the LDS had different thoughts on this. It is true that you can talk apples and oranges and not even realize it.

Thanks for your time.

Many blessings.

I think you are still missing the point... Saying yes to the abortion(or other of similar type) question does not mean a person can't be baptized... It means ok sensitive area needs to be bumped up. The purpose of the second interview is the same as the first only done with someone with (presumably) more skill and experience in handling sensitive matters.

They will ask questions about the persons current mindset toward such action (in addition to the past) If the current mindset is good (aka have the desire to forsake such sin) they will be allowed baptism. If not then more work needs to be done to help them build up their faith and understanding of what God wants of them to help them prepare for baptism.

[LittleWyvern]

I just got home from my mission about a month and a half ago, so I know how this feels for people. I'll try to answer your questions with this perspective.

I can't remember all of them but two of them stuck out.

If you want, I can message you all 6 questions asked. They're not secret, they're in Preach My Gospel which is on the church website.

1. Have you ever been involved in an abortion or homosexual acts 2. Have you been arrested/criminal history

Why is this important to ask a convert?

Aren't all sins the same and washed clean by the blood of our Savior? Why are these particular sins singled out?

These questions aren't asked to punish someone for sins that have already been forgiven. The main purpose of these questions is, if the answer is yes, to replace the 20 year old missionary doing the interview with someone leagues more mature (for example, someone from the mission presidency). Essentially, the missionary is deemed not mature enough to discuss those issues. I'm sure the person from the mission presidency would ask if those sins have been repented of and, if they have, wouldn't ask any more details. This is what we read in the Doctrine and Covenants about the qualifications for baptism anyway:

37 And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

A lot of the baptismal interview questions do ask about how you are now. For instance, here's question #1:

1. Do you believe that God is our Eternal Father? Do you believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, the Savior and Redeemer of the world?

And question #3, which precedes the question about homosexuality and criminal activity (that's important):

3. What does it mean to you to repent? Do you feel that you have repented of your past transgressions?

I have not been involved in any homosexual acts, abortions, criminal activity etc. but I do not like someone asking me that, to be brutally honest. I feel that as a sinner, we come to Christ carrying a lot of baggage and that is the purpose of the baptims, to wash our sins away and to cleanse us as we become a new creature in Christ. My past sins are gone forever, washed white as snow.

Whether I had an abortion at age 15 (which I did not) or whether I had did anything else that is a no-no...isn't that the purpose of baptism? To wash those sins away? There is only Person who knows me intimately and that is God. I am still a loved Chid of God who desires baptism.

I completely agree with you, but something that is important to remember is that repentance is part of baptism. Repentance is often mention either with baptism or as preparation to enter the Kingdom of God. For example:

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

And why is that? Through confessing our sins through prayer we can obtain forgiveness from Christ, but through baptism we mend the broken covenant, almost like we receive the covenant again. By this process, both mercy (through the Atonement of Jesus Christ) and justice (through the repairing of the law that we broke by sinning) are satisfied.

If this is confusing the way I put it, please let me know. I need to go to work right now but I'll be back a little later and I'll be glad to help you :)

[Lilac]

I think you are still missing the point... Saying yes to the abortion(or other of similar type) question does not mean a person can't be baptized... It means ok sensitive area needs to be bumped up. The purpose of the second interview is the same as the first only done with someone with (presumably) more skill and experience in handling sensitive matters.

They will ask questions about the persons current mindset toward such action (in addition to the past) If the current mindset is good (aka have the desire to forsake such sin) they will be allowed baptism. If not then more work needs to be done to help them build up their faith and understanding of what God wants of them to help them prepare for baptism.

I think I get ya. (i just don't agree with you)

You are asked questions about your past behavior which does not mean that you are unworthy, just that this area needs to be explored further and how you feel about your past sins. If you have made a true repentence.

I am just not comfortable with specific sins being addressed while other sins are not addressed. It feels like a hierarchy of sins. We are all sinners and "further explanation" is just not warranted. I'm not comfortable your sin being taken to a higher authority for discussion when you are asking for baptism. Sure, if you are currently engaged in a sinful, unlawful lifestyle, that must be addressed. But if I am living a good and holy life now, why do we have to discuss something that happened 20 years ago or who knows what?

It just feels to me like there should be more emphasis on grace and the gift of eternal life with our Savior that we are being given. Not something you did when you were young or when you were in a messed up state of mind. If we were going to dissect eachother over past sins, no one would ever get baptized!

I don't know why this bothers me so much. Like I posted, it really wouldn't affect me personally. Maybe because it just sounds "works based" rather than "grace based" to me? To me, baptism is 100% grace based. To discuss my past works, whether good or bad, is a waste of time. I shouldn't have an easier interview experinece because I have lived a Christian life or a tough interview because I'm an ex-junkie bisexual with numerous abortions in my history. We all stand the same before God. A sinner.

again, thanks for the discussion.

[estradling75]

We believe that it is by Grace we are saved after all we can do... So being works based is a common complaint we hear

[Lilac]

And why is that? Through confessing our sins through prayer we can obtain forgiveness from Christ, but through baptism we mend the broken covenant, almost like we receive the covenant again. By this process, both mercy (through the Atonement of Jesus Christ) and justice (through the repairing of the law that we broke by sinning) are satisfied.

I'm with you. Repentence comes before baptism.

But why is a third person involved? I think forgiveness involves you and God. (Perhaps the person you offended.) Having some kind of sexual encounter in college or who knows what doesn't really involve anyone else. I think sins are private. Between you and God. Catholics confess their sins to a priest and I don't agree with that.

Why are certain sins only discussed?

Thanks for your post.

Sure you can send me the list of questions...they ran them down quickly with my son and my mind just stopped on "they are asking you specific sins?"

Edited July 28, 2011 by Lilac

[Lilac]

We believe that it is by Grace we are saved after all we can do... So being works based is a common complaint we hear

I know that. I've read it and heard it myself. I don't really see the LDS as works based but this particular incident made it come to my mind. Like one "work" is better or worse than another.

You know what, I wish I didn't have so many questions. It would be easier for me to just join the LDS and be happy. However, my mind doesn't work that way. I examine these theological things.

[LittleWyvern]

I'm with you. Repentence comes before baptism.

But why is a third person involved? I think forgiveness involves you and God. (Perhaps the person you offended.) Having some kind of sexual encounter in college or who knows what doesn't really involve anyone else. I think sins are private. Between you and God. Catholics confess their sins to a priest and I don't agree with that.

I'm sure the missionaries taught you about the concept of "two or three witnesses."

16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

1 This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

This pattern crops up a lot and is pretty important. The LDS church applies this pattern to a lot of things. One of the main reasons for a baptismal interview is to have a third witness to the two missionaries teaching the person who is going through the interview. The missionaries teaching witness that, in their best judgment, that the person they are teaching meets the requirements for baptism as outlined in D+C 20:37. The person doing the interview is really only there to provide a third witness to that fact. The questions are then designed to help the person doing the interview (who has most likely never met the person before) see that the person he is interviewing does in fact meet the requirements for baptism. This pattern of witnesses extends beyond the baptismal interview. When a person is baptized, there are two people who are official witnesses to the baptism, whose only job is to ensure that the prayer before the baptism is said correctly and the person being baptized is fully immersed in the water. That way, these witnesses, along with the person doing the baptism, can witness to the Bishop that the baptism is valid. Next, when that person is given the Holy Ghost, there must be at least 2 people performing the ordinance. Now I hope you're not just thinking that these are all just inconvenient formalities. The point that I'm trying to make is that we take ordinances very seriously. These are no less than promises with God, and we want to make doubly or triply (yeah, I know that's not a word ) sure that we're doing it the way God has told us to do it.

Why are certain sins only discussed?

Because those are the only sins that would require somebody more mature to do the interview. :)

Sure you can send me the list of questions...they ran them down quickly with my son and my mind just stopped on "they are asking you specific sins?"

I'll message you the list as soon as I'm done typing this post. :)

EDIT: hooray for lunch break, too. :)

[Lilac]

I'm out today, I'll be back to the thread later.

thanks.

[bytebear]

I would read D&C chapter 20.

37And again, by way of commandment to the church concerning the manner of baptism—All those who humble themselves before God, and desire to be baptized, and come forth with broken hearts and contrite spirits, and witness before the church that they have truly repented of all their sins, and are willing to take upon them the name of Jesus Christ, having a determination to serve him to the end, and truly manifest by their works that they have received of the Spirit of Christ unto the remission of their sins, shall be received by baptism into his church.

The baptism interview is the way you witness to the church that you have truly repented of all your sins. Baptism is not a trivial covenant. You are taking upon yourself the name of the Lord. If you do that unworthily or with false intent, then you are in more grave danger of damnation than if if you had not made the covenant. You covenant with God and then abandon that covenant? So the church wants to protect you from entering the covenant before you are ready. It's not about punishing you for being sinful. It''s about making sure you are truly ready to covenant with God.

I am so glad you are seeing how serious this decision is and are thinking about it this deeply.

I read in another post how you have been praying for a sign, but i think it's easier than that or a least less spectacular. Listen to the still small voice*. Just ask God if this is the true church, if Joseph Smith was a true prophet, and if the Book of Mormon is true. I can tell you have a testimony of Jesus Christ, and a deep conviction of His divinity. Ask God that if this church is true, to give you the same deep conviction about His church. Then you will have no doubts. With that testimony, repentance and any stumbling blocks will fall away.

* 1 Kings 19:11-13

And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the Lord. And, behold, the Lord passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the Lord; but the Lord was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the Lord was not in the earthquake:

And after the earthquake a fire; but the Lord was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

And it was so, when Elijah heard it, that he wrapped his face in his mantle, and went out, and stood in the entering in of the cave. And, behold, there came a voice unto him...

Edited August 6, 2011 by bytebear

[Lilac]

Hi Guys!

Sorry I abandoned my own question.

I spoke with all the people and we have worked it out. I said to them exactly what I posted here. They seemed fine with that answer/my point of view and didn't push anything else. They said that was fine to feel that way and when I do my interview, I can give the same answer/point of view and it will work out fine.

I had my son re-interviewed with the Ward Missionary President and it was all straightened out very easily.

We are back on for the baptism. :)