Questions about posterity


Seminarysnoozer
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Questions about posterity.

1. Is “Posterity” the same thing as offspring? Does "posterity" have to be genetically related?

2. Outside our immediate family that we know here in this life, what is the value of our Earthly posterity in the next life? Would a distant family member, separated by many generations mean anything to us in the next life more than any other "brother" or "sister" we know? If so, why?

Of course I understand the value of family and our personal relationships but why is there so much emphasis on earthly posterity or is it that “posterity” is referring to all the people we have an effect on in this life and in the future, not necessarily our “offspring”. Otherwise, I am not sure how it matters who my great great great grandson is that I will never meet in this life and will be my “brother” anyways in the next life. In other words, if a person is my great great great grandson in this life, will that make much of a difference to me if we are both fortunate enough to make it into the Celestial Kingdom? How would that relationship be different than any other person I might be in contact with in the Celestial Kingdom. I am having a hard time seeing the value of earthly posterity in the next life.

Also, if there is some value to posterity, it would seem that those who are around early in the process have a greater posterity.

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Questions about posterity.

1. Is “Posterity” the same thing as offspring? Does "posterity" have to be genetically related?

2. Outside our immediate family that we know here in this life, what is the value of our Earthly posterity in the next life? Would a distant family member, separated by many generations mean anything to us in the next life more than any other "brother" or "sister" we know? If so, why?

Of course I understand the value of family and our personal relationships but why is there so much emphasis on earthly posterity or is it that “posterity” is referring to all the people we have an effect on in this life and in the future, not necessarily our “offspring”. Otherwise, I am not sure how it matters who my great great great grandson is that I will never meet in this life and will be my “brother” anyways in the next life. In other words, if a person is my great great great grandson in this life, will that make much of a difference to me if we are both fortunate enough to make it into the Celestial Kingdom? How would that relationship be different than any other person I might be in contact with in the Celestial Kingdom. I am having a hard time seeing the value of earthly posterity in the next life.

Also, if there is some value to posterity, it would seem that those who are around early in the process have a greater posterity.

I believe the contexts for posterity is more closer to the idea of family and family growth more than the idea of genetic continuance.

so i'd wger that a great great grandson to you today would still be considered a great great grandson to you in the next life. It might have a slightly different spin on it, but i don't think its going to be different enough to be concerned or alarmed if it does have a different spin to it.

Edited by Blackmarch
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I believe the contexts for posterity is more closer to the idea of family and family growth more than the idea of genetic continuance.

so i'd wger that a great great grandson to you today would still be considered a great great grandson to you in the next life. It might have a slightly different spin on it, but i don't think its going to be different enough to be concerned or alarmed if it does have a different spin to it.

Thanks. I guess what I am getting at is trying to understand why Abraham or Joseph of Egypt would receive great posterity as a reward for their faith. What is it about having a large earthly posterity that makes it a reward more than just knowing that a lot of people will follow the commandments because of ones efforts. What about "posterity", the genetic kind, makes it valuable as opposed to all the people, for example, that Jesus Christ affected?

Or does "posterity" really just mean all the people that receive the gospel as a result of one's effort in this life? ... not a genetic thing.

If it is just referring to genetic posterity, I am not sure I see the carried-over-into-the-next-life value of having a large genetic posterity.

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There's a quote out there from Brigham Young about how each of us has the responsibility to build up our own kingdom to ourselves. I personally think this is done through one's posterity. (Obviously, "adoption" was an exception to the rule--or an exception that proves the rule--but you get the picture.)

Parents take pride in the accomplishments and creations of their children and grandchildren. I imagine that it's the same with our Father in Heaven. My opinion is that one fundamental aspect of the sealing ordinance is to perpetuate that sense of pride--that "glory", if you will--throughout the generations and on into eternity.

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There's a quote out there from Brigham Young about how each of us has the responsibility to build up our own kingdom to ourselves. I personally think this is done through one's posterity. (Obviously, "adoption" was an exception to the rule--or an exception that proves the rule--but you get the picture.)

Parents take pride in the accomplishments and creations of their children and grandchildren. I imagine that it's the same with our Father in Heaven. My opinion is that one fundamental aspect of the sealing ordinance is to perpetuate that sense of pride--that "glory", if you will--throughout the generations and on into eternity.

I agree that we can have the opportunity to build our kingdom but I would think that is referring to the potential for spiritual children. I am having a hard time appreciating how my great grandchild 10 generations from now (if there is such a thing) being so far removed from me would build any kingdom related to me.

If the sealing is what provides us the sense of pride or glory, then how is that sealing any different between a great x10 grandson from earth versus any brother or sister I have in the Celestial Kingdom? I am assuming our sealing all the way back to Adam and Eve will make us all sealed together in that sense anyways.

What does genetic link add to that when there is no personal relationship (unlike a child or grandchild)?

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There are blessings that go along with many different family trees...

from doing genealogy work, I have found many fascinating things which have been passed down from generation to generation within our family - you might not have met your great great *** great grandparents, but I bet your family still has some traditions/quirks that came from them.... it's actually a bit eerie to read the journals of ancestors, and see just how much is passed down...

as far as ancients having more people descended from them because they came earlier in the game - I think of the temple mirrors - they go both ways - family trees go both ways, we are related to both our children, and our ancestors... our joys/sorrows/triumphs go both ways giving honor/joy/sorrow to both our descendants and our ancestors.

just my $0.02!

It seems that the "posterity" discussion always turns into a "family tree" discussion when I have talked to my husband about this. I think it comes back to that every time. And since we are all part of the same family tree then in that sense, your posterity is my posterity etc. There is only one posterity, the Eternal family, or there is no posterity. It is not as individual as it comes across. It seems that there is only one Eternal Family or there is no family.

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If the sealing is what provides us the sense of pride or glory, then how is that sealing any different between a great x10 grandson from earth versus any brother or sister I have in the Celestial Kingdom? I am assuming our sealing all the way back to Adam and Eve will make us all sealed together in that sense anyways.

Well, that's the thing. We talk, in the Church, about the function of the temple as being to seal "families" to "be together forever"; but if you listen very closely to the ceremony itself--there's nothing that links one sibling to another. Nothing. It's all about the parent-child relationship.

That doesn't mean that siblings aren't important. It does mean that I can (apparently) attain my exaltation without having my bond with my brother solemnized through priesthood authority.

When all is said and done, I don't think temple work is primarily about warm fuzzies or interpersonal relationships per se. It's about cementing people into their place in the Patriarchal Order.

What does genetic link add to that when there is no personal relationship (unlike a child or grandchild)?

I would suggest that you're basing this on the potentially flawed assumption that an ancestor cannot influence his posterity after he is dead.

Ancestors can influence their posterity--even generations they never met in person--through their writings, through their influence on individuals who survive them and do interact with their posterity, and through "spirit of Elijah"-type manifestations that I don't pretend to fully understand, but the reality of which could be attested to by many who have gotten the "family history bug" or done temple work.

And since we are all part of the same family tree then in that sense, your posterity is my posterity etc. There is only one posterity, the Eternal family, or there is no posterity.

If that were the case, then isn't the logical implication that it doesn't matter whether any of my unborn children come to your family or mine since they'll be able to trace their ancestry back to Adam either way?

My daughter's family tree may not ultimately matter to God. It may not even matter to my daughter.

But it matters to me.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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I'm not sure I know all the answers to the above questions but this is an important gospel topic. Let me add a few items...

Elder Oaks stated in 1985 that, "The basis of the government of God is the eternal family" (Parental Leadership in the Family).

Family is the government of God! It boggles the mind. This one statement breeds 100 others. But I don't doubt it. Our Father in Heaven is anxious that we be organized into families before, during, and after this life. Let me share a few quotes and thoughts in conjunction with this.

Brigham Young told about a visit he had from Joseph Smith. Brigham quoting Joseph Smith said, "Be sure to tell the people to keep the Spirit of the Lord; and if they will, they will find themselves just as they were organized by our Father in Heaven before they came into the world. Our Father in Heaven organized the human family, but they are all disorganized in great confusion." Brigham then explained what he saw, "Joseph then showed me the pattern, how they were in the beginning. This I cannot describe but I saw it, and saw when the Priesthood had been taken from the earth, and how it must be joined together, so that perfect chain from Father Adam to his latest posterity." (Brigham Young Collection, February 17, 1847)

Here on earth Satan has wrecked much havoc on the family organization. So much so that we often question how it will work in the eternities. As with any organization there has to be order. Even on earth nothing can get done without a chain of communication and responsibility. Establishing order is a vital part of the priesthood and temple work. In fact, I believe the temple has much more to say on this point then many suppose at first. Elder Scott said, "While participating in temple ordinances, consider your relationship to Jesus Christ and His relationship to our Heavenly Father. This simple act will lead to greater understanding of the supernal nature of the temple ordinances."

Based on the above quote it is clear that our Father in Heaven organized the human family before they came to this earth.

Another from Heber C. Kimball at the funeral of Jedediah M. Grant. Quoting what Jedediah M. Grant saw in the spirit world he says, "He said to me, brother Heber, I have been into the spirit world two nights in succession, and, of all the dreads that ever came across me, the worst was to have to again return to my body, though I had to do it. But O, says he, the order and government that were there! When in the spirit world, I saw the order of righteous men and women; beheld them organized in their several grades, and there appeared to be no obstruction to my vision; I could see every man and woman in their grade and order. I looked to see whether there was any disorder there, but there was none; neither could I see any death nor any darkness, disorder or confusion. He said that the people he there saw were organized in family capacities; and when he looked at them he saw grade after grade, and all were organized and in perfect harmony." (Journal of Discourses Vol. 4 pp 136-137)

After this life we will again be organized in families. Family is a vital part of Father's plan.

Last one from Theodore M. Burton in General Conference April 1975, "One thing we often fail to realize is that our priesthood comes to us through the lineage of our fathers and mothers. The Lord explained it in these words: 'Therefore, thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers. …' (D&C 86:8.) 'Oh,' I can hear some of you say, 'there must be something wrong with that statement, for I am the only member of my family who has joined the Church. How could I have received the priesthood from my parents?' In this scripture the Lord was not talking about your priesthood line of authority. He was talking about your inherited right to receive and use priesthood power..."

The reception and use of priesthood power is tied to family, including ancestors and posterity.

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I would suggest that you're basing this on the potentially flawed assumption that an ancestor cannot influence his posterity after he is dead.

Ancestors can influence their posterity--even generations they never met in person--through their writings, through their influence on individuals who survive them and do interact with their posterity, and through "spirit of Elijah"-type manifestations that I don't pretend to fully understand, but the reality of which could be attested to by many who have gotten the "family history bug" or done temple work.

My daughter's family tree may not ultimately matter to God. It may not even matter to my daughter.

But it matters to me.

Thanks for your response. I guess I believe we will quickly return to our pre-mortal arrangement of one big family (divided into 3 kingdoms) with the possible addition of a spouse.

What I would like to understand better is why would one of our past ancestors would use the possessive "my" posterity, or as you put it "can influence their posterity"? What would make them put value on "theirs" and not "ours" collectively? So, they are following their left behind genetic map, their blood line? There is some possessive value to that? What value does a blood line have over a non-blood line in the next life? (Of course, not taking about immediate family but distant family separated by generations) Abraham and Sarah show the importance of continuing a blood line to the point of trying to find other ways to get it, like Hagar. And obviously they were more concerned about the future posterity, not just immediate because they were satisfied with just one offspring to carry the bloodline.

In the next life, if Abraham runs into an "offspring" that was born 1000 years later, what eternal value does he get from that that I wouldn't get from knowing that person? If the joy and blessing comes from the fact that maybe that person held the priesthood and followed the commandments, why wouldn't I as a member of that patriarchal order also feel the same joy for that individual without having the mortal bloodline link with that person?

Is it just because there is something in common, like when a returned missionary finds another returned missionary that went to the same mission in a different decade?

In other words, what eternal value is held within mortal genetic ties? (Again, not spiritual children or future spiritual eternal children etc.)

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I'm not sure I completely understand where you're going, but let me offer some shots in the dark:

--If you and I are second cousins, and we meet at a family reunion where our common great-grandmother is present, your relationship with me will be qualitatively different than your (or my) relationship to our great-grandmother. And either of our relationships with that great-grandmother would be different than it would be with--say--a great aunt. There's something intangible about the person who raised me (or raised the person who raised me, and so on . . .) that makes them special.

--In that vein, perhaps the special thing isn't blood or DNA per se; but that the personal relationships that the biological relationship generally (but certainly not always) entails.

--As a parent, one of my responsibilities is to labor for the well-being of my children. One of my prerogatives (assuming I do my duty diligently) is to share in their achievements and accomplishments, and know that everything they have done for good is to some extent attributable to me. So there's a two-way flow of blessings and obligations, and I think this is the relationship that gets formalized in the temple. But the sealing perpetuates that bond across multiple generations and on into eternity, formally linking people who never met in this life but whose mortal actions still influenced and blessed each other.

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I'm not sure I completely understand where you're going, but let me offer some shots in the dark:

--If you and I are second cousins, and we meet at a family reunion where our common great-grandmother is present, your relationship with me will be qualitatively different than your (or my) relationship to our great-grandmother. And either of our relationships with that great-grandmother would be different than it would be with--say--a great aunt. There's something intangible about the person who raised me (or raised the person who raised me, and so on . . .) that makes them special.

--In that vein, perhaps the special thing isn't blood or DNA per se; but that the personal relationships that the biological relationship generally (but certainly not always) entails.

--As a parent, one of my responsibilities is to labor for the well-being of my children. One of my prerogatives (assuming I do my duty diligently) is to share in their achievements and accomplishments, and know that everything they have done for good is to some extent attributable to me. So there's a two-way flow of blessings and obligations, and I think this is the relationship that gets formalized in the temple. But the sealing perpetuates that bond across multiple generations and on into eternity, formally linking people who never met in this life but whose mortal actions still influenced and blessed each other.

To see where I am going, stretch that example you gave to your great great great great grandson in the future. Obviously, we are not taking about interpersonal relationships that are any more unique than one would have with anybody else. The only link in that case is genetic, which I am assuming is part of the word, posterity.

Are you suggesting the word "posterity" only applies to those that we have personal relationships with in this life? I don't think you are. Then, certainly Abraham did not have much of a "posterity" if that is the case.

If posterity has nothing to do with genetics or offspring from procreation, I am fine with that. Is that how everyone understands that? I would think most think it is related to offspring.

In your last paragraph you are somewhat saying that even maybe people that are baptized by a set of missionaries would fall into that category of being their "posterity" as they were certainly influenced by them.

Edited by Seminarysnoozer
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Let me give another metaphor to help with what I am trying to understand. I think we can relate posterity to a family tree. If we are all part of the family tree related to Adam and Eve, then we are all connected in that way, if we uphold the covenants given us. I think we can agree on that. If that is the case, we are all on the same tree, does it matter where we are on that tree? Does it matter if we are close to the trunk and have many branches coming off of where we are at versus a tiny branch close to the top of the tree that has no offshoots?

If we say that we benefit from this relationship no matter where we are at in the chain, forwards and backwards, offspring and ancestors, then I don't see how there is individual "posterity" as we are all part of the same family tree. Your tree is my tree. ... unless it matters where one is on the tree, close to the trunk versus a distant branch.

If it matters where one is in the tree such as a major branch, where if one were to cut that branch the tree might die, then those that came before us are at an advantage, they have more "posterity". And those that die before having the ability or opportunity to bear children also would be at a disadvantage. So, it makes more sense to me that it doesn't matter where one is on the tree so long as they are a part of the tree. And if that is the case then there is no such thing as individual "posterity". My "posterity" (including the forward and backwards links) can be the same as Abraham's, in other words. That would then take out any genetic-proximity produced advantage.

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Does it matter if we are close to the trunk and have many branches coming off of where we are at versus a tiny branch close to the top of the tree that has no offshoots?

The "bracket" is an interesting device. It exists in all organizations, be they corporate hierarchies or playoff seeding in sports tournaments. In the church the bracket is directly tied to the cosmism of the family, as the Lord has passed his utilization of the tool down to us as a device of godliness.

The difference between the bracket's use in the world and it's use by God is the direction in which the action flows. In a tournament, for example, you begin with 16 teams and the action flows towards the final two contenders, whereupon the glory is claimed by the champion. So: 16 ->8->4->2->1. With a family you begin with two people who are 'one flesh' in marriage... which is hopefully the opposite of a championship bout... who have children, grandkids, great-grandkids, Etc.

Both the married couple and the lone champion achieve a sense of glory from their efforts. The difference between the glory of God and the glory of the world is that when the bracket flows outward from the 'one', everyone shares in the glory. Going the other direction hoards all the glory for the 'top dog'. Hence the dysfunction often associated with MLMs, which purport to be the former but always prove to be the latter.

So I think what your question really comes down to, Snoozer, is the value of relationships. Not just looking at couples that happen to be up or down the line in those sealing room mirrors, but actually stepping through those mirrors and getting to know those people personally. The more that are available to you the greater your glory will be because of the inter-relational potential that resides between you and each person.

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The "bracket" is an interesting device. It exists in all organizations, be they corporate hierarchies or playoff seeding in sports tournaments. In the church the bracket is directly tied to the cosmism of the family, as the Lord has passed his utilization of the tool down to us as a device of godliness.

The difference between the bracket's use in the world and it's use by God is the direction in which the action flows. In a tournament, for example, you begin with 16 teams and the action flows towards the final two contenders, whereupon the glory is claimed by the champion. So: 16 ->8->4->2->1. With a family you begin with two people who are 'one flesh' in marriage... which is hopefully the opposite of a championship bout... who have children, grandkids, great-grandkids, Etc.

Both the married couple and the lone champion achieve a sense of glory from their efforts. The difference between the glory of God and the glory of the world is that when the bracket flows outward from the 'one', everyone shares in the glory. Going the other direction hoards all the glory for the 'top dog'. Hence the dysfunction often associated with MLMs, which purport to be the former but always prove to be the latter.

So I think what your question really comes down to, Snoozer, is the value of relationships. Not just looking at couples that happen to be up or down the line in those sealing room mirrors, but actually stepping through those mirrors and getting to know those people personally. The more that are available to you the greater your glory will be because of the inter-relational potential that resides between you and each person.

What I gather from this statement is that you think Earthly posterity doesn't matter as much as the "value of relationships". The more I discuss this, the more I get the perception that "posterity" doesn't mean much in this life.

As we will all be connected, some a closer connection in terms of earthly time frame, because we will all be connected to Adam and Eve through the patriarchal order, then it won't matter who was grandson to whom and if one is a descendant of Joseph Smith versus Joe Hashimura. If I am a descendent of Joe Hashimura as opposed to Joseph Smith then I could still develop a close relationship with Joseph Smith in the next life. So, the whole earthly lineage and "posterity" really means nothing. If we are one family tree all connected to Adam and Eve, I don't see how anyone will have "more available" then anyone else.

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Thanks. I guess what I am getting at is trying to understand why Abraham or Joseph of Egypt would receive great posterity as a reward for their faith. What is it about having a large earthly posterity that makes it a reward more than just knowing that a lot of people will follow the commandments because of ones efforts. What about "posterity", the genetic kind, makes it valuable as opposed to all the people, for example, that Jesus Christ affected?

Or does "posterity" really just mean all the people that receive the gospel as a result of one's effort in this life? ... not a genetic thing.

If it is just referring to genetic posterity, I am not sure I see the carried-over-into-the-next-life value of having a large genetic posterity.

good question.

I think theres a few reasons-

on the earthly or worldy side of the coin, family was an indication of stability, wealth, and power, and influence... and when working together generally ran a lot smoother with more direction than just a conglomeration of different people.

Also i think abraham knew how great an influence people can become over generations, and that if you get say a nuclear family that passes on what they knew to their descendants and such is repeated through the generations then its not too long before there will be many people believing and practicing such.

Another reason is it provided another way to allow God to bless people.

A spiritual reason is in that we are trying to be like God, and he has a great family.

another is the concept of binding people together in unity, with ties that are supposed to be stronger than just friends or comrades.

for genetic reasons - is you pass on traits and trends.

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I disagree. I think God places each of us within a certain circle of people for a reason.

What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. - Matthew 19:6

although it is interesting to note that the highest familial relation that we have - that of husband and wife - is one that is chosen rather than inherited. Also, to consider baptism as a mean of being born to heavenly parents - this too is one of choice rather than genetics.

If you go back to the original post, what I was asking was the relevance of posterity, meaning people that are offspring that are many generations separated and on earth at a different time than that person, to that person in the afterlife. How and what value does "posterity" of the earthly kind bring to the person after this life? If one individual has a posterity of 100 and the other 1,000,000 offspring, is there a difference in the afterlife? How and why? Obviously, posterity meant something more to Abraham than just the ones he had as a circle of relationships in this life.

And we are all "joined together" via Adam and Eve. So, is there such a thing as individual posterity?

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good question.

I think theres a few reasons-

on the earthly or worldy side of the coin, family was an indication of stability, wealth, and power, and influence... and when working together generally ran a lot smoother with more direction than just a conglomeration of different people.

Also i think abraham knew how great an influence people can become over generations, and that if you get say a nuclear family that passes on what they knew to their descendants and such is repeated through the generations then its not too long before there will be many people believing and practicing such.

Another reason is it provided another way to allow God to bless people.

A spiritual reason is in that we are trying to be like God, and he has a great family.

another is the concept of binding people together in unity, with ties that are supposed to be stronger than just friends or comrades.

for genetic reasons - is you pass on traits and trends.

Thanks,

So, you lean to the side of "posterity" meaning the lessons past on from generation to generation and not so much who is related to whom. Right?

How would that relate to Abraham and being in his "posterity" if there was a break in the passing on of traditions and lessons, there was an apostasy. It was restored, but that would make the genetic trait and trends pathway a dead end at some point. So, that would support more the idea that we are not talking about genetically related people as one's "posterity". "Posterity" would possibly include all the people one baptizes on their mission, for example.

The spiritual reason and lesson could certainly apply to one's immediate family and responsibilities while on the earth but I would have a hard time seeing how that lesson applies to my great great great great grandson. ... if he is part of my "posterity".

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As we will all be connected, some a closer connection in terms of earthly time frame, because we will all be connected to Adam and Eve through the patriarchal order, then it won't matter who was grandson to whom and if one is a descendant of Joseph Smith versus Joe Hashimura.

As it pertains to mere bloodline, I agree.

If I am a descendent of Joe Hashimura as opposed to Joseph Smith then I could still develop a close relationship with Joseph Smith in the next life. So, the whole earthly lineage and "posterity" really means nothing. If we are one family tree all connected to Adam and Eve, I don't see how anyone will have "more available" then anyone else.

As this pertains to adoption and/or the parent-child sealing, I disagree.

One function of the temple is to make us kings and priests. Kings have inheritances through established lineages. England's Edward VIII and Germany's Kaiser Wilhelm II were first cousins. However, one of them had a peculiar lineage that gave him a legitimate claim to the throne of Germany. The other did not.

How would that relate to Abraham and being in his "posterity" if there was a break in the passing on of traditions and lessons, there was an apostasy. It was restored, but that would make the genetic trait and trends pathway a dead end at some point. So, that would support more the idea that we are not talking about genetically related people as one's "posterity". "Posterity" would possibly include all the people one baptizes on their mission, for example.

Sure; and that's the kind of usage we see in Isaiah 53--Christ dies without generation [seed], but He receives his seed when we make our souls an sacrifice for sin.

And bear in mind, too, that (for example) the restoration was effected by people who were both physical and spiritual heirs of Abraham--Moses, Elijah, Moroni, and Jesus Himself.

The spiritual reason and lesson could certainly apply to one's immediate family and responsibilities while on the earth but I would have a hard time seeing how that lesson applies to my great great great great grandson. ... if he is part of my "posterity".

I think that's a great key of Godhood--the more branches, leaves, and twigs can trace some part of their sustenance back to you; the stronger you tend to become. And your own capacity to be aware of, and love, and assist each of those individuals grows on into infinity. The branch sustains, and also draws strength from, both the sub-branches that descend from it and the trunk and roots from which it stems.

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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As this pertains to adoption and/or the parent-child sealing, I disagree.

One function of the temple is to make us kings and priests. Kings have inheritances through established lineages. England's Edward VIII and Germany's Kaiser Wilhelm II were first cousins. However, one of them had a peculiar lineage that gave him a legitimate claim to the throne of Germany. The other did not.

Thanks for your response.

This is what I am not totally understanding. The difference though from the example you gave is that we are all part of the Adamic lineage and if we are members of the church, also of the Abrahamic lineage. So, as long as I am part of that lineage then there is no difference in my posterity from your posterity, right?

Even though you are focusing on the parent-child sealing, if you take that back to Adam and Eve or maybe even Noah, then we are all connected in that way (or will be someday). If the blessings obtained from "posterity" not only pertain to our descendants but also our ancestors then all the blessings that Adam and Eve have as their posterity are also potentially mine and yours, they are the same. The only way it could be different from one person to another is if we are just looking at "posterity" and the associated blessings in the forward direction and not back. Its been said several times though that the blessings extend backwards ... all the way to Adam and Eve, I assume for all of us.

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I think most patriarchal blessings specify what family you are from (Ephraim etc.) and if this is through blood or adoption - and that we should read the original blessings that go along with our line.

(Guide to the Scriptures | E Ephraim.:The tribe of Ephraim)

In the last days their privilege and responsibility is to bear the priesthood, take the message of the restored gospel to the world, and raise an ensign to gather scattered Israel (Isa. 11:12–13; 2 Ne. 21:12–13).

that a specific line of people were supposed to end the apostasy says something...

I still think that relates to this life. My original question is how it relates to after mortal life blessings from posterity alone. If my great great great great grandchildren decide to have 10 children as opposed to 5, does that make a difference for me in the afterlife?

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Thanks for your response.

This is what I am not totally understanding. The difference though from the example you gave is that we are all part of the Adamic lineage and if we are members of the church, also of the Abrahamic lineage. So, as long as I am part of that lineage then there is no difference in my posterity from your posterity, right?

Just want to make sure we're on the same page, terminology-wise: By "posterity" you mean "descendants", right?

Because of course there's a difference in our posterity. There always will be, unless/until our respective descendants begin intermarrying at some point down the line. To put it very crudely: My kids are members of my "kingdom", but not of yours. And vice-versa.

Generally speaking, yes; we both have the same blessings as becoming kings and queens, priests and priestesses, and so on as described by D&C 76 and 132. But the specifics differ. You share in the joys and the accomplishments of your children in a way that I never will. They receive assistance, encouragement, and inspiration from you in a way that they never will from me.

Even though you are focusing on the parent-child sealing, if you take that back to Adam and Eve or maybe even Noah, then we are all connected in that way (or will be someday).

Yes; but I'm not personally convinced that that particular connection is the primary goal of the Patriarchal Order.

If the blessings obtained from "posterity" not only pertain to our descendants but also our ancestors then all the blessings that Adam and Eve have as their posterity are also potentially mine and yours, they are the same. The only way it could be different from one person to another is if we are just looking at "posterity" and the associated blessings in the forward direction and not back. Its been said several times though that the blessings extend backwards ... all the way to Adam and Eve, I assume for all of us.

Sure; we are all heirs to the blessings passed down through Adam and Eve and through many other common ancestors.

But we do not have the exact same common ancestry (and again, I'm using "ancestry" very loosely here and would not limit it to mere bloodline/DNA). My own inherited blessings include the contributions of specific individuals (my parents, for example), which your particular inherited blessings lacks. And vice-versa.

As far as ancestry goes, it isn't just about making us heirs to the blessings of the same generic covenants. It's about making us heirs and beneficiaries of the peculiar ministries of specific individual ancestors.

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Just want to make sure we're on the same page, terminology-wise: By "posterity" you mean "descendants", right?

Because of course there's a difference in our posterity. There always will be, unless/until our respective descendants begin intermarrying at some point down the line. To put it very crudely: My kids are members of my "kingdom", but not of yours. And vice-versa.

Generally speaking, yes; we both have the same blessings as becoming kings and queens, priests and priestesses, and so on as described by D&C 76 and 132. But the specifics differ. You share in the joys and the accomplishments of your children in a way that I never will. They receive assistance, encouragement, and inspiration from you in a way that they never will from me.

Yes; but I'm not personally convinced that that particular connection is the primary goal of the Patriarchal Order.

Sure; we are all heirs to the blessings passed down through Adam and Eve and through many other common ancestors.

But we do not have the exact same common ancestry (and again, I'm using "ancestry" very loosely here and would not limit it to mere bloodline/DNA). My own inherited blessings include the contributions of specific individuals (my parents, for example), which your particular inherited blessings lacks. And vice-versa.

As far as ancestry goes, it isn't just about making us heirs to the blessings of the same generic covenants. It's about making us heirs and beneficiaries of the peculiar ministries of specific individual ancestors.

Thanks again. I guess I didn't realize that our children and our descendents are part of our "kingdom" in the next life. I will have to try to understand that better. I didn't consider that the divisions that are formed here would continue divided in the next life.

The inherited blessings, if there is such a thing, I suppose there is in some ways, I have always considered to be a part of this life only. I don't see how bloodline/DNA differences would continue into the next life. I am not sure why such differences would exist.

My bias (maybe in error) is to believe that our current genetic arrangement and associated ancestry is done for the benefit of our earthly, mortal and testing condition. In a non-earth, non-mortal, non-testing setting, I am not sure how "peculiar ministries" are relevant, at least to what degree. To me, this is like saying, because I sat next to two girls in Kindergarten class I will be sitting next to two girls in every class of my education.

I tend to believe the DNA/bloodline, era in which one arrives on the earth, family in which a person is put into etc. are for this state. What we do with this state of being will determine where we are in the eternities but I think a lot of those conditions are temporary as this life is temporary. Otherwise, one would have to argue that what we have here in terms of conditions but also genetics is based in how good or not so valiant a person is in the previous life and a reflection of their future rewards. It is not a linear relationship, we know that by what we believe will happen to those that are born with trisomy 21, for example. That person with trisomy 21 has no children, no descendents and therefore no posterity in this life. That is a reflection of their reward in the next life? I don't think so.

As an example, if a person is born as a product of rape and they themselves cannot have children in this life, I cannot even begin to grasp the idea that that situation is a reflection of their future family in the eternities. I think there are many similar examples of earthly situations that cannot reflect the eternal arrangements of relationships .... rape, slavery, wars, diseases that might affect the number of children a person can have, etc.

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I tend to believe the DNA/bloodline, era in which one arrives on the earth, family in which a person is put into etc. are for this state. What we do with this state of being will determine where we are in the eternities but I think a lot of those conditions are temporary as this life is temporary.

Agreed; but there must be something about the family relationship that transcends the eternities. Otherwise our "families can be together forever" meme goes from over-simplification to outright misleading.

Otherwise, one would have to argue that what we have here in terms of conditions but also genetics is based in how good or not so valiant a person is in the previous life . . .

As to the previous life: Not necessarily; it just means that we were born into conditions that the Lord deemed the most appropriate for our own spiritual development. Which is what we believe already.

. . . and a reflection of their future rewards. It is not a linear relationship, we know that by what we believe will happen to those that are born with trisomy 21, for example. That person with trisomy 21 has no children, no descendents and therefore no posterity in this life. That is a reflection of their reward in the next life? I don't think so.

Well, yes and no. Remember, we believe in "eternal increase" for the righteous, so those who didn't get the opportunity for parenthood in this life would seem to still get it sooner or later in one sphere or another.

Does someone with Trisomy 21 get denied the experience of parenthood, which may then delay his/her eternal progression? Yes; but remember that our religion teaches that all mortal experiences--including parenthood--help us to develop specific attributes, and whatever attribute we develop here rises with us in the resurrection and gives us "so much the advantage in the world to come". Logically, someone with Trisomy 21 will have to forego completely (or only experience to a limited degree) a number of other experiences that we typically view as having a significant influence on our spiritual development. Doesn't mean they don't get the same reward--it just means that it might be on a different timetable.

As an example, if a person is born as a product of rape and they themselves cannot have children in this life, I cannot even begin to grasp the idea that that situation is a reflection of their future family in the eternities. I think there are many similar examples of earthly situations that cannot reflect the eternal arrangements of relationships .... rape, slavery, wars, diseases that might affect the number of children a person can have, etc.

I think I've already kind of gone over how this can be dealt with regarding progeny. With regard to "ancestry"; I think the key lies in adoption. In fact, the parent-child sealing was originally called "adoption", and it wasn't until Wilford Woodruff's administration that the Church began to heavily emphasize sealing biological parents to biological children. (And even today, you can still have a legally adopted child sealed to you in the temple.)

[i'll also note, for the record, that this is my own doctrinal interpretation and not necessarily mainstream LDS doctrine.]

Edited by Just_A_Guy
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Well, yes and no. Remember, we believe in "eternal increase" for the righteous, so those who didn't get the opportunity for parenthood in this life would seem to still get it sooner or later in one sphere or another.

Does someone with Trisomy 21 get denied the experience of parenthood, which may then delay his/her eternal progression? Yes; but remember that our religion teaches that all mortal experiences--including parenthood--help us to develop specific attributes, and whatever attribute we develop here rises with us in the resurrection and gives us "so much the advantage in the world to come". Logically, someone with Trisomy 21 will have to forego completely (or only experience to a limited degree) a number of other experiences that we typically view as having a significant influence on our spiritual development. Doesn't mean they don't get the same reward--it just means that it might be on a different timetable.

[i'll also note, for the record, that this is my own doctrinal interpretation and not necessarily mainstream LDS doctrine.]

Thanks for your responses because it is helping me flesh out my beliefs on this topic.

I think here you hit on one of the aspects of this topic that I am not sure about. I think I understand it but it just doesn't seem right to me. That is, you seem to easily equate our successes as parents here as part of our "eternal increase". I guess I have boxed "eternal increase" to what happens when a person is in the Celestial Kingdom and starts to form their own eternal family. I look at everyone here on earth, including my own children as brothers and sisters as we are all children of our Heavenly Parents. That arrangement, to me, surpasses in importance the earthly family arrangements as I believe these family arrangements are opportunities to gain parenting skills and experience for something bigger. If we are faithful in small things we will be given bigger things. The bigger thing, to me, is the pre-mortal family we were a part of and will go back to until we are mature enough to move on to our own individual "eternal increase" families. I hope my earthly children go on to form their own "eternal increases" as I wish for all my brothers and sisters. My real children though, will be my spiritual children. I think that will be the source of our real posterity and eternal increase. If it is locked into the finite arrangements of this life, I am not seeing how that is "eternal increase".

I look at our successes here, including our expressed desire for eternal family as part of the test. It is a way to express our desire to eventually have spiritual offspring and show that we are capable of that responsibility. If a spirit in the pre-mortal life already showed that desire and capability in whatever way God has to assess that potential, then I think that person wouldn't have to show or develop that trait here, maybe those are the ones with trisomy 21, for example. If they satisfied that requirement, passed the test already, I don't see why they would have to do it again in some other time frame, in some other sphere. This is a stepping stone to move onward to bigger things. This life is not the final arrangement of the family make up.

Of course, the "eternal family" can continue for those who want that and I am sure we will have continued relationships with our children, parents etc. but again I have a hard time seeing how a relationship with my great great great great grandson of this world would be any different than my relationship with your great great great great grandson if we are all first brothers and sisters, spiritually.

If I take a test in school and the question sets up a scenario, the scenario is temporary. If the test asks, 'Jack and Jill travel in a train going 45 miles per hour, how far will they have traveled in three and a half hours?" I don't expect to find Jack and Jill traveling in a train going 45 miles per hour in real life. The person sitting next to me taking the test might have a different question, "Bill and Jennifer travel on a train going 30 miles per hour, how far will they have traveled in 5 hours?" That doesn't mean that in the real world I will only travel with people named Jack and Jill and in the real world the person sitting next to me will only travel with Bill and Jennifer. ... to some degree, maybe not that exclusively, I look at this life similarly, we are in a testing situation, the scenarios are unique and individual but are temporary. We are not establishing permanent roots here, we are in the nursery of our development and will be transplanted to permanent ground later to grow our tree. This life is an arranged existence that had to be different than our usual life in that we have the veil and a carnal body. I haven't produced any spiritual children or posterity in this life, this is just a role playing test run for bigger responsibilities. My earth children will never be my spiritual children because they are my spiritual brothers and sisters.

sorry ... went on with that.

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