repentance, death, and the spirit world

[Seminarysnoozer]

D&c 132: 22-23

[Guest pogi]

Sorry brother, I'm not following you with D&C 132: 22-23. What exactly does that have to do with the Holy Spirit of promise? Can you expound a little?

[Seminarysnoozer]

Sorry brother, I'm not following you with D&C 132: 22-23. What exactly does that have to do with the Holy Spirit of promise? Can you expound a little?

I wasn't answering that question, just was continuing with the theme of needing to be in the world to keep our second estate.

I think the Holy Spirit of promise is the ratifying seal of approval that the Father puts on the contract made by covenants if the people involved are true to their end of the contract. So, it can still be broken by unrighteousness.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think, too, in going along with the theme of death repentance and the spirit world that this life is the final test but not the only test. We have gone through a lot of "testing" already in the pre-mortal life, enough to be able to call some 'noble and valiant'. To make that designation requires some kind of measurement and I think that measurement was complete as far as our spiritual maturity goes before coming here. God uses that information, couched with our experience here and all it's associated variables including what we were given here to make the final judgement. The final judgement is not just based on this life experience. ...but it is final.

[Guest pogi]

SS,

Your theory is based on some hefty assumptions.

You put it, "I am just saying that our spirit alone, before coming here, learned all it could and prepared all it could. There is no room for further preparation, it did all it could. And so our spiritual natures will not change."

Could you please verify this anywhere in scripture? The fact that we passed the first estate, or test, does not imply that we learned or prepared all that we could. It implies that we learned and prepared enough, some more than others, including the noble and great ones. The only real test that we passed was our willingnes to follow Christ's plan and come to earth. That speaks nothing of reaching our full potential for spiritual growth. Because you pass a test in school does not mean that you learned or prepared all that you could, it means that you learned and prepared enough. There is still much, much room for growth after passing a test, or failing a test for that matter.

Edited September 30, 2011 by pogi

[Seminarysnoozer]

SS,

Your theory is based on some hefty assumptions.

You put it, "I am just saying that our spirit alone, before coming here, learned all it could and prepared all it could. There is no room for further preparation, it did all it could. And so our spiritual natures will not change."

Could you please verify this anywhere in scripture? The fact that we passed the first estate, or test, does not imply that we learned or prepared all that we could. It implies that we learned and prepared enough, some more than others, including the noble and great ones. The only real test that we passed was our willingnes to follow Christ's plan and come to earth. That speaks nothing of reaching our full potential for spiritual growth. Because you pass a test in school does not mean that you learned or prepared all that you could, it means that you learned and prepared enough. There is still much, much room for growth after passing a test, or failing a test for that matter.

The opposite assumption is even more "heavy". You would have me assume that Heavenly Father would send spirits to Earth without being as prepared as they could be?

If the test involves where we go from here, then I would assume we are at the crossroads to make that decision. Why would God want to test our decision to go one way or another before we are at the crossroads? I believe in a God of order and purpose. I don't think this probationary period is a 'dry-run' or a practice test.

Liken to a college entrance exam, would you take it when you are still in 6th grade and not planning on going to college for another 6 years? Or take it when you feel like you haven't prepared enough for it? Only if you thought you could take it again, which I realize some people do it to know what they have to study more etc.. But, where in the scriptures does it say that we can go through mortality again to take advantage of a "practice run"? There is no such thing. Either the test counts or it doesn't. If the test doesn't count then this life is not a probationary period.

If God takes into account our pre-mortal life as part of His final judgement, then we have been tested all along. If you view this life as a fresh start, so to speak, everyone is on the same plane, nobody is more valiant or noble than anyone else, then I could see how one would believe that pre-mortal life did not involve any judgement or testing. We believe Abraham's words though, that there were some more noble and valiant than others. We also believe where much is given much is required. How could God do that to people if there was no pre-testing or measure before this life besides just passing the first estate?

Elder Bruce R. McConkie: “God sends his spirit children to earth on a regular, organized schedule. There is nothing haphazard or accidental about the peopling of the earth or the assignment of various land areas to the races of men. ‘The race and nation in which men are born in this world is a direct result of their pre-existent life. All the spirit hosts of heaven deemed worthy to receive mortal bodies were foreordained to pass through this earthly probation in the particular race and nation suited to their needs, circumstances and talents. … Not only Israel, but all groups were thus foreknown and their total memberships designated in the pre-mortal life.’

Also; 1 Nephi 3 :7; "7 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, said unto my father: I awill go and do the things which the Lord hath commanded, for I know that the Lord giveth no commandments unto the children of men, save he shall prepare a way for them that they may accomplish the thing which he commandeth them."

That doesn't sound to me like He sent us here not fully prepared.

Understand that I am not saying the spirit can't continue to grow, I am just saying that it has fully prepared for that step. We are prepared as fully as we could to show and prove which degree of glory we fit best with.

[Guest pogi]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but there are a couple of points that I am having trouble with. You said in a previous post:

"Don't get me wrong, I think a person's spiritual nature can change in this life but not by much. That, to me, is more along the lines of refinement not a change of their true nature, we all accepted God's plan before coming here, we all kept our first estate. Now we are tested with the second estate."

You keep speaking of our "true nature" and its limited ability to change. What exactly are you defining as our true nature? It sounds like you are saying that our "true nature" is our spiritual selves and its ability to make correct choices. If that is the case, why would that be limited? The scripture you used in 1 Nephi 3:7 contradicts your stance and testifies to our unlimited ability to make correct choices and have unlimited growth, no matter what our circumstances of birth, spiritual advancement in the pre-earth life, or preparedness for this life. I mean, who is really prepared for life anyway!? Maybe I was absent from the preparedness lesson for life or something; cause I sure don't feel prepared. However, I do see that as I turn to the Lord, a way is always prepared.

1 Nephi 3:7 says that "he shall prepare a way" It does not say that we are fully prepared and thus will be able to find our own way; it says that the Lord will prepare a way for the willing. Our ability and unlimited potential for growth, to me, is not in question, it is our willingness.

You make it sound like our "true nature" is like a dog leash, some longer than others, and when we reach that potential, boom, it yanks our neck back. Our true nature is ever evolving and limitless.

Edited September 30, 2011 by pogi

[Marchman]

I have read alot of this thread and I like what you both had to say on this subject Seminarysnoozer. I think the thing is is there are minds that are not prepared to accept things that are by the spirit. And when I say that Im not siding with anyone, Im saying that as we progress in this life in righteousness the spirit is able to reveal to us some things that are pertinant for us to know. As Ammon said in his return from his mission "..what natural man is there that knoweth these things? I say unto you, there is none that knoweth these things, save it be the penitent....yea unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed.."

[Seminarysnoozer]

I have read alot of this thread and I like what you both had to say on this subject Seminarysnoozer. I think the thing is is there are minds that are not prepared to accept things that are by the spirit. And when I say that Im not siding with anyone, Im saying that as we progress in this life in righteousness the spirit is able to reveal to us some things that are pertinant for us to know. As Ammon said in his return from his mission "..what natural man is there that knoweth these things? I say unto you, there is none that knoweth these things, save it be the penitent....yea unto such it is given to know the mysteries of God; yea, unto such it shall be given to reveal things which never have been revealed.."

Knowledge while in the flesh is something different than what the spirit knows in it's preparation to enter this state. This condition is a fallen state of ignorance, the natural man cannot understand the things of the spirit, this is true. But, in keeping the second estate, the test isn't to understand everything but a test of faith. And when one is righteous they will be given helps in making more righteous choices through revelation. For our second estate, we are not so much graded based on what we know but what we do with the knowledge we have that is based in faith. If this is a test of faith we are not supposed to remember what happened in the premortal life. So, this idea that people should have a chance to go back in the spirit form and prepare some more and then go back into a state of being under the veil to forget that additional information they just learned in further preparation does not make sense.

This is a test of faith, a test of character, not a test of knowledge - that happened in terms of passing the first estate. All here passed the test of having enough knowledge to move onto the second estate, we all qualified for this test. Do you believe we all qualified for the test (covenant) we are in right now, the second estate? Or are there some here that took the second estate (covenant) upon themselves in the presence of God in error?

[Seminarysnoozer]

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, but there are a couple of points that I am having trouble with. You said in a previous post:

"Don't get me wrong, I think a person's spiritual nature can change in this life but not by much. That, to me, is more along the lines of refinement not a change of their true nature, we all accepted God's plan before coming here, we all kept our first estate. Now we are tested with the second estate."

You keep speaking of our "true nature" and its limited ability to change. What exactly are you defining as our true nature? It sounds like you are saying that our "true nature" is our spiritual selves and its ability to make correct choices. If that is the case, why would that be limited? The scripture you used in 1 Nephi 3:7 contradicts your stance and testifies to our unlimited ability to make correct choices and have unlimited growth, no matter what our circumstances of birth, spiritual advancement in the pre-earth life, or preparedness for this life. I mean, who is really prepared for life anyway!? Maybe I was absent from the preparedness lesson for life or something; cause I sure don't feel prepared. However, I do see that as I turn to the Lord, a way is always prepared.

1 Nephi 3:7 says that "he shall prepare a way" It does not say that we are fully prepared and thus will be able to find our own way; it says that the Lord will prepare a way for the willing. Our ability and unlimited potential for growth, to me, is not in question, it is our willingness.

You make it sound like our "true nature" is like a dog leash, some longer than others, and when we reach that potential, boom, it yanks our neck back. Our true nature is ever evolving and limitless.

Thanks for your response, I think this is a good discussion.

Our true nature is the the thing that God is proving by putting us here. It has to be said with a term that is a little vague because we don't understand all the variables that go into that proving. We know it is a test of obedience and faith. From the teachings of Brigham Young; "This is a world in which we are to prove ourselves. The lifetime of man is a day of trial, wherein we may prove to God, in our darkness, in our weakness, and where the enemy reigns, that we are our Father’s friends, and that we receive light from him and are worthy to be leaders of our children—to become lords of lords, and kings of kings—to have perfect dominion over that portion of our families that will be crowned in the celestial kingdom with glory, immortality, and eternal lives (DBY, 87)."

I like the words here, "friend", "worthy", those are aspects of our 'true nature' that really can only be revealed in this fallen, behind the veil state. The question raised though was one of maybe God let a few in to this proving ground without being fully ready to prove that we are obedient in this situation and that we are really our Father's friend. What more preparation did we need to have the opportunity to show that we are obedient and friends of the Father while under the mask of mortality, when we are told that we entered into the covenant of the second estate knowingly, willingly and under our Father's watchful guidance? If the Father said it was time to go, people want to say it was not time to go?

I am saying that we matured enough, that the spirit could not mature any more to prove our true natures, whether we are obedient enough, friend's enough, or worthy enough. If we passed the first estate, that qualifies us for the second estate by definition. In other words, we are fully ready for this test by passing the first estate test. I don't think He passed people in the first estate test in error. Otherwise, that would also mean that some spirits were cast out of His presence in error too.

You are not supposed to consciously remember your preparedness except through spiritual inspiration. That is why I use the term true nature, it is supposed to come naturally while in this setting. It is not something forced or rehearsed it is the shoot-from-the-hip instinct that allows someone to make correct choices based in their spiritual character. Knowledge and what we are given allows us to have more choices in this life but the choice one would make with any given set of variables would remain the same based on their true natures. This is the whole "what would Jesus do?" thing comes from. We hope our true nature is more Christlike to choose how Jesus would choose if He were in our situation. This isn't a pass/fail thing it is a graded measure and so it makes it difficult to lay out like one would with testing something like fund of knowledge. This is not an open book test, it is a test of faith. What I am trying to say is that the result of the test would be the same, even if someone would try to prepare for it for another billion years in the spirit form because even if one is more knowledgeable where much is given much is required, God takes that into account to judge our true nature.

The story of the ten talents suggests that we do enter this life with different talents and are thus given different amounts but the individual who was given one had every chance of being a good servant just as much as the one given five. Or are we trying to say here that he was only successful because he was given 5 and all of us should have another test when we all are given 5 talents instead of 1? I am saying, no, the test is still valid for the one given 1 talent as it is for the one given 5. What do you think would happen if the guy in the story who got 5 talents only got 1 in the beginning? He would still double it, because that is his true nature. I don't think he doubled it just because he got 5. That is what is being suggested here, that we somehow go back and get more talents before we come here so that we can pass the test in a better way. Passing the test is irrelevant to the total amount of knowledge and progression the spirit has if we have all passed the mark of being ready for the test which is to pass the first estate. Then, all of us here are worthy enough to prove to God which kingdom we want to be in for the rest of Eternity.

President Kimball said; "When we were spiritual beings, fully organized and able to think and study and understand with him, our Heavenly Father said to us, in effect: “Now, my beloved children, in your spirit state you have progressed about as far as you can. To continue your development, you need physical bodies. I intend to provide a plan whereby you may continue your growth. As you know, one can grow only by overcoming.

...

We mortals who now live upon this earth are in our second estate. Our very presence here in mortal bodies attests the fact that we “kept” our first estate. Our spirit matter was eternal and co-existent with God, but it was organized into spirit bodies by our Heavenly Father. Our spirit bodies went through a long period of growth and development and training and, having passed the test successfully, were finally admitted to this earth and to mortality.

If we are true and faithful, we shall rise, not alone in immortality but unto eternal life. Immortality is to live forever in an assigned kingdom. Eternal life is to gain exaltation in the highest heaven and live in the family unit."

"To live forever in an assigned kingdom" based in what happens the moment we become immortal, so this obviously does not apply to the spirit world. But at that moment of becoming immortal, whatever Kingdom we are assigned to, we are to live in that Kingdom forever.

Edited October 1, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Guest pogi]

A couple of points:

I think that your definition of our "true nature" totally discredits the physical body. Our physical body is not only a tabernacle and a tool of the adversary to test us with. I think it is a mistake of huge proportion to suggest that our bodies cannot also influence our spirits for good. It does not only bring growth through trials, it is also a tool to create growth through the positive experiences of our divine natures. Our bodies are like a catalyst for spiritual growth by both offering trials and divine experiences that our spirits could not have otherwise. Thus, our true nature is whatever we are at the time, whether spirit or soul. If our true nature is simply spirit as you suggest, I agree, it is limited in its potential for growth, but coupled with the body it is limitless in its potential through the propagation of its seed; glory added upon glory for all eternity. Also, to suggest that our true nature is spirit, one would have to conclude that God's true nature is also spirit. That is obviously false; God could not be God without the aid of the divinity of the flesh.

I also think that it is a gross mistake to suggest that there are some destined to the glory of the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, with no hope of eternal life, as you suggest in your discussion with rameumptom, due to their pre-mortal experience. The story of the ten talents illustrates this perfectly. We all come to earth some with 1 and some with 5 talents etc. Christ clearly does not say that he that only has one talent due to his limited growth in the pre-existence has no hope of celestial glory, he also clearly does not expect him to multiply his talents by 10, to equal those of the man who doubled his 5 talents, in order to qualify for salvation. I believe that not all of us came to earth spiritually developed as much as we possibly could be. Clearly, those older than us would be more developed. God takes that into account in the final judgment, which is why he does not expect him with only 1 talent to return with 10 talents in order to enter his glory. Like you said, where much is given, much is expected. We all developed enough to be tried, but could not get any closer to divinity without a body; but this is not to say that we could not have developed further in spirituality in the pre-earth life. Had we stayed and developed further, in the end, more would have been expected of us; thus judgment is equal and fair. We all have equal opportunity, again, it boils down to our willingness.

Edited October 1, 2011 by pogi

[Seminarysnoozer]

A couple of points:

I think that your definition of our "true nature" totally discredits the physical body. Our physical body is not only a tabernacle and a tool of the adversary to test us with. I think it is a mistake of huge proportion to suggest that our bodies cannot also influence our spirits for good. It does not only bring growth through trials, it is also a tool to create growth through the positive experiences of our divine natures. Our bodies are like a catalyst for spiritual growth by both offering trials and divine experiences that our spirits could not have otherwise. Thus, our true nature is whatever we are at the time, whether spirit or soul. If our true nature is simply spirit as you suggest, I agree, it is limited in its potential for growth, but coupled with the body it is limitless in its potential through the propagation of its seed; glory added upon glory for all eternity. Also, to suggest that our true nature is spirit, one would have to conclude that God's true nature is also spirit. That is obviously false; God could not be God without the aid of the divinity of the flesh.

I also think that it is a gross mistake to suggest that there are some destined to the glory of the telestial or terrestrial kingdoms, with no hope of eternal life, as you suggest in your discussion with rameumptom, due to their pre-mortal experience. The story of the ten talents illustrates this perfectly. We all come to earth some with 1 and some with 5 talents etc. Christ clearly does not say that he that only has one talent due to his limited growth in the pre-existence has no hope of celestial glory, he also clearly does not expect him to multiply his talents by 10, to equal those of the man who doubled his 5 talents, in order to qualify for salvation. I believe that not all of us came to earth spiritually developed as much as we possibly could be. Clearly, those older than us would be more developed. God takes that into account in the final judgment, which is why he does not expect him with only 1 talent to return with 10 talents in order to enter his glory. Like you said, where much is given, much is expected. We all developed enough to be tried, but could not get any closer to divinity without a body; but this is not to say that we could not have developed further in spirituality in the pre-earth life. Had we stayed and developed further, in the end, more would have been expected of us; thus judgment is equal and fair. We all have equal opportunity, again, it boils down to our willingness.

Thanks,

First of all, I totally agree with your second paragraph, I don't think I was saying anything different from what you put there, in fact, I think I was trying to stress that same point that God will take into account our varied current setting in his judgement. I think you would agree though that we don't all enter this life on the same page.

I still would disagree with your first paragraph though but more maybe in terms of semantics because I think the overall idea is correct. I think it is the situation we are in that can be beneficial to spiritual growth not the body by itself. Of course, the body is part of the situation but the growth comes from having opposition and a chance to work through the agency this provides. The body itself doesn't provide spiritual growth any more than Satan himself does. Carnal things lead to carnality and spiritual things lead to spirituality. Let me remind you too that Moses, after seeing the bigger picture, said that man was nothing, he never really appreciated that until seeing the bigger picture.

I mean, if you want to be technical about it, I guess I could agree that opposition provides growth but really what a person is saying there is that when there are opposite sides to choose from, that situation provides growth not that the evil side by itself provides growth. It is beneficial to be here and to be exposed to this opposition for this aspect of our overall growth but it is not a permanent condition, just a probationary period in which we are dual beings. This is a different state than when we are a single being with both body and spirit.

Our current body is not in harmony with our spirit, if it was then one would remember all that happened in the premortal life. If one says that the veil makes the spirit forget everything that happened before then that would also make it so that one's spirit is not who you really were in the premortal life and we would only be testing how the body alone reacts to things. I don't think that is the case. I think our spirit's influence is who we really are but the body being mostly in control of our thought process and being dampens that influence. That is why we are to overcome carnality, overcome our body. Just like Jesus overcame His body and the death that is associated with it. We are here to learn how to overpower our body's influence so that we can master that. He overcame it to the point of not wanting to turn a stone to bread even though He fasted 40 days and nights. The degree to which we master that skill is what is taken into account to determine what school of glory we can go onto to continue our training. Do we like the spirit being in control more than the body or do we give into the body being in control over spiritual influences. To what degree a person wants to follow spiritual influences over carnal influences is our true nature which can only be seen when we are given that choice between spiritual versus carnal.

To test your first paragraph statement, please tell me one thing that comes from the mortal carnal body alone as opposed to a 'mortal body-spirit dual being situation' that is beneficial to our growth. (Again, I am not taking about the perfected body-spirit situation after resurrection) Is it sexual drive enough to lust after another man's wife life David, is it the desire for power or fame, is it hunger powerful enough to sell one's inheritance for food, is it the desire to put chemicals into the body for pleasure, is it the feeling of revenge and anger enough to kill someone else? Certainly all those things don't come from our spirit which passed our first estate. Our spirits are pure and clean and valiant as we enter into this life. The situation of opposition can allow us the victory of overcoming those challenges and the experience to appreciate what we have in the future but the carnal body by itself is the source of the opposite direction of where we want to go with spiritual growth.

Just like a weightlifter wouldn't say the weight gave him strength, that wouldn't be a correct statement. It is the pulling against the weight that gave him strength. Yes, you gotta have the weight to pull against it but the weight itself is not the source of the strength added it is what is done with the weight that is the source of the strength. What a person does with the "weight" is our 'true nature' as it would be the same thing they would do if given any weight. The matured spirit would choose at the same level of righteousness no matter what the situation. This is why the test of the second estate only has to happen once.

[Seminarysnoozer]

I finally found where I remember reading about the idea of an individual's "true nature". It is from Elder Joseph B. Wirthlin, finally found it in my ancient manila folder filling system. lol

Wirthlin said; "“No Hypocrisy and No Deception;

Truth can also describe “that which is [actually] the case rather than what is manifest or assumed,” as in the true dimensions of a problem or the true nature of an individual.

Do we, indeed, actually live the gospel, or do we just manifest the appearance of righteousness so that those around us assume we are faithful when, in reality, our hearts and unseen actions are not true to the Lord’s teachings?

Do we take on only the “form of godliness” while denying the “power thereof”?

Are we righteous in fact, or do we feign obedience only when we think others are watching?

The Lord has made it clear that He will not be fooled by appearances, and He has warned us not to be false to Him or to others. He has cautioned us to be wary of those who project a false front, who put on a bright pretense that hides a darker reality. We know that the Lord “looketh on the heart” and not on the “outward appearance.”

So, in this sense it is the amount that we actually walk the walk and not just talk the talk. I realize this is probably not the best set of words because we commonly talk about knowing the true nature of God. But in many senses, we are trying to show how much we like His true nature by making ours like His. In the premortal life we could talk the talk more than walk the walk, whereas here we can show our worthiness and willingness to "do", which is part of our "true nature". It is the thing that the Lord looketh on as opposed to what the world sees. I think this also relates to the words; "to bring to pass" meaning there is nothing assumed when our true natures are revealed, they are brought to pass, as Wirthlin says truth is not assumed.

Also in support of my statement that we have progressed as far as we could in the premortal life to the point of this next step; Dallin H. Oaks said; “Our understanding of life begins with a council in heaven. There the spirit children of God were taught his eternal plan for their destiny. We had progressed as far as we could without a physical body and an experience in mortality. To realize a fulness of joy, we had to prove our willingness to keep the commandments of God in a circumstance where we had no memory of what preceded our mortal birth.”

[Guest pogi]

seminarysnoozer, I am glad to hear that we agree on a few things. This has been an enjoyable conversation, thanks; but, I have to say that your beliefs about the body are dangerously close to those of Opus Dei.

This is the equation that I derive from your statements.

The spirit = source of good, true nature

The body = source of evil, false nature?

Let us not forget that neither our spirits nor our bodies could choose good or evil without being tempted by God or Lucifer. That is why man is nothing! It is not because of our bodies. It is not our bodies that corrupt us and defile us; it is Lucifer and our choice to follow him.

There is a great talk by Susan Tanner the young women general president about our bodies. She says, “He seduces some to despise their bodies; others he tempts to worship their bodies. In either case, he entices the world to regard the body merely as an object. (sound familiar) In the face of so many satanic falsehoods about the body, I want to raise my voice today in support of the sanctity of the body. I testify that the body is a gift to be treated with gratitude and respect.” We are to accept our bodies as a gift with gratitude and respect for it, not despice it and treat it as the enemy of our souls; something to be overcome. Our bodies are not the source of the natural man, Lucifer is.

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Cor. 3:16–17). You compare our bodies to Satan in regards to spiritual growth. Why then are they considered holy by God; temples, that if defiled God will destroy that man?

You said “The body itself doesn't provide spiritual growth any more than Satan himself does.”

How could they be considered by God to be holy?

“In the Word of Wisdom, for example, the spiritual and physical are intertwined. When we follow the Lord’s law of health for our bodies, we are also promised wisdom to our spirits and knowledge to our minds (see D&C 89:19–21). The spiritual and physical truly are linked.”

Just do a search on lds.org on the body and try to find one talk that speaks of the body as you do.

We are not less but more like Heavenly Father because we are embodied.

You asked “please tell me one thing that comes from the mortal carnal body alone as opposed to a 'mortal body-spirit dual being situation' that is beneficial to our growth.”

Answer: The body is worthless without the spirit, so is the spirit worthless without the body to God.

Edited October 2, 2011 by pogi

[Seminarysnoozer]

seminarysnoozer, I am glad to hear that we agree on a few things. This has been an enjoyable conversation, thanks; but, I have to say that your beliefs about the body are dangerously close to those of Opus Dei.

This is the equation that I derive from your statements.

The spirit = source of good, true nature

The body = source of evil, false nature?

Let us not forget that neither our spirits nor our bodies could choose good or evil without being tempted by God or Lucifer. That is why man is nothing! It is not because of our bodies. It is not our bodies that corrupt us and defile us; it is Lucifer and our choice to follow him.

There is a great talk by Susan Tanner the young women general president about our bodies. She says, “He seduces some to despise their bodies; others he tempts to worship their bodies. In either case, he entices the world to regard the body merely as an object. (sound familiar) In the face of so many satanic falsehoods about the body, I want to raise my voice today in support of the sanctity of the body. I testify that the body is a gift to be treated with gratitude and respect.” We are to accept our bodies as a gift with gratitude and respect for it, not despice it and treat it as the enemy of our souls; something to be overcome. Our bodies are not the source of the natural man, Lucifer is.

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are” (1 Cor. 3:16–17). You compare our bodies to Satan in regards to spiritual growth. Why then are they considered holy by God; temples, that if defiled God will destroy that man?

You said “The body itself doesn't provide spiritual growth any more than Satan himself does.”

How could they be considered by God to be holy?

“In the Word of Wisdom, for example, the spiritual and physical are intertwined. When we follow the Lord’s law of health for our bodies, we are also promised wisdom to our spirits and knowledge to our minds (see D&C 89:19–21). The spiritual and physical truly are linked.”

Just do a search on lds.org on the body and try to find one talk that speaks of the body as you do.

We are not less but more like Heavenly Father because we are embodied.

You asked “please tell me one thing that comes from the mortal carnal body alone as opposed to a 'mortal body-spirit dual being situation' that is beneficial to our growth.”

Answer: The body is worthless without the spirit, so is the spirit worthless without the body to God.

Thanks again. I still think we believe the same thing, it is just a matter of semantics. It is in the choosing that we either defile or glorify. I agree, just like you even said, "...it is Lucifer and our choice to follow him." That same choice though is the source of glory even though we have mostly been talking about bad choices, it provides both opportunities. So, sometimes we can say the mortal body-spirit provides an opportunity to do either good or bad but dependent on our choices. The option of bad though does not come from our spirit until we have started to choose evil for a period of time, then it becomes marred with those previous choices. Don't forget though that it is Lucifer that tempted Eve and thus, we have our corrupted body. My body, your body is as a result of Lucifer's tempting. I recognize that as a member of the Church, I am not separating that fact from our discussion here. Lucifer is the source of the temptations that come as a result of the fall. Therefore, he is the source of all evil choices in the same way that God is the source of all good choices as we are spirit children of our Heavenly Father.

As the talk by Susan Tanner, she seems to be supporting what I am saying, that the body is not "merely an object". If the body is not merely an object, like a coat over the spirit, what is it? That, to me, implies what I have been saying that it has it's own force, it's own pull. One despises their body by not appreciating the full potential of this learning tool. This occurs when we suffer pain, depression and illness, people are pulled to the point of saying things like "I wish I wasn't alive", in other words, 'I wish I didn't have this learning opportunity to choose between good and evil.' And worship the body is to follow all of it's pulls such as those the dangers associated with sexual drives, pull for gluttony (Word of Wisdom pulls that you mentioned), power, fame, etc. Both of those situations, if one were to choose to follow the body, that choice is influenced by Lucifer (he gets credit for it so to speak) simply because he contributed to the Fall which opened this opportunity for corrupting our own spirits. The Susan Tanner talk, I interpret, as saying we should be thankful for and respect (be cautious and careful) with this situation that provides an opposition and therefore opportunity for either glory or sin. Glory of course is when we follow the spirit's influence and appreciate this opportunity for growth for what it is and sin or unhappiness when we follow the body's influence either to despise itself or to worship it, that is both from the body.

...

I thought I already gave you references from LDS.org but I can do it again ...

This is from a talk by David O. Mckay; "Teachings of David O. McKay

Each of us has two contrasting natures: the physical and the spiritual.

Man is a dual being, and his life a plan of God. That is the first fundamental fact to keep in mind. Man has a natural body and a spiritual body. In declaring this fact the scriptures are very explicit:

“And the Gods formed man from the dust of the ground, and took his spirit (that is, the man’s spirit), and put it into him; and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” [Abraham 5:7.]

Man’s body, therefore, is but the tabernacle in which his spirit dwells. Too many, far too many, are prone to regard the body as the man, and consequently to direct their efforts to the gratifying of the body’s pleasures, its appetites, its desires, its passions. Too few recognize that the real man is an immortal spirit, which [is] “intelligence or the light of truth,” [see D&C 93:29] animated as an individual entity before the body was begotten, and that this spiritual entity with all its distinguishing traits will continue after the body ceases to respond to its earthly environment. Said the Savior: “I came forth from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go to the Father.” (John 16:28.)"

And this is how Paul describes the body also from David O. Mckay's teachings; "In his epistle to the Galatians, Paul specifically enumerates the “works of the flesh,” as he calls them, and the “fruits of the Spirit.” Note this classification: The works of the flesh are manifest as these:

“… Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

“Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

“Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

“Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

“And they that are Christ’s have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

“If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.” (Gal. 5:19–25.)"

I think "works of the flesh" and "fruits of the spirit" is a very common theme in our scriptures and teachings, this is not a new concept that can't be found.

Let me give you one example to chew on, Where does alcoholism come from? There are several studies that show that there is a genetic predisposition for alcoholism. And when a person drinks, pleasure driven centers in the brain reinforce that drive. There still has to be a choice, to drink or not, and that is where either our spiritual success or downfall comes from. But the pull to the downfall, in this specific example, comes from the body. Eventually, after making that bad choice over time, the spirit will also carry that drive. But the original pull and option for this downfall was not from the spirit, I think you might agree with that. I don't think there were any alcoholics in the pre-mortal life. And I don't think our perfected body after resurrection will carry the alcoholic gene. The corruption, that all of our bodies have, will be removed with resurrection.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Guest pogi]

I guess my biggest hang up is on this sentiment that you offer: “The option of bad though does not come from our spirit until we have started to choose evil for a period of time, then it becomes marred with those previous choices.”

Didn’t the original choice to do bad come from our spirit? How can you say it doesn’t have the option to do bad? Agency is a function of spirit, not flesh. Maybe you could clarify, because it sounds like you are saying that without a body, Satan can have no influence over our spirits. I think that is fundamentally untrue. The war in heaven proves this fact.

I do not believe that the desires of the flesh are inherently evil as you suggest. Every desire of the flesh is a gift to man. In fact, they are necessary to become as God. Without a sex drive, God’s plan would be destroyed. They are inherently good, but we all know what Satan can do with a good thing. Without Satan, our bodies would not be a source of any sin, corruption, or evil drive or desire whatsoever. Satan tempts us to kick our desires into overdrive, with no moderation. Our mission is not to fight against the flesh and overcome it. It is to reverence the flesh and protect it through moderation. Our fight is against the adversary, not ourselves.

Our bodies are like a vehicle that is equipped with all of the attributes that get us to where we need to go. Our spirits from birth are like inexperienced drivers. If we get in an accident, it would be foolish to blame the car for being equipped with a gas pedal. Where is the accountability here? We need to take spiritual accountability for our physical actions. If the spirit is not accountable for giving into the lusts of the flesh (which derive from Satan, not our flesh), than the fix for lust would have to be a biological one rather than a spiritual one. There is no such thing as physical sin, only spiritual.

Also, to attribute the lust for power and fame to the evil desires of the flesh is a mistake. The greed for power and fame existed long before the flesh; it is why the son of the morning became the devil. He wanted all of the honor attributed to God, that is fame and power.

I think that the “works of the flesh” that you quote, are not referring to the corruptness of the body, but are referring to the corruptness of man. Again, the flesh is not inherently corrupt; one would have to conclude that God is corrupt for making it. The body is not corrupt in the sense that it is a driving force of evil, it is only corrupt in the sense that it will die. The “works, or fruits of the spirit” are not referring to the spirit of man, but are referring to the spirit of God. It is a direct comparison to the works of man to the works of God, not a comparison to our flesh and spirit.

The sooner we can stop battling against our bodies, but fully accept and respect them as part of us, the sooner we can advance on the true threat.

In reference to your quote form President McKay, it is true that we are dual beings, spirit and body, but to call them contrasting is unfortunate in my opinion. I find them quite complimentary. Does that mean I am disagreeing with a former prophet…I guess so. It’s not the first time it’s happened. I disagree with a lot of what Brigham said.

Anybody attending a 12 step program can tell you that while their addiction may have turned into a biological problem, it started out as a spiritual one. The spirit is the driver here, not the body.

Edited October 3, 2011 by pogi

[Vort]

The question is not whether desires of the flesh are "inherently evil". The question is: Who is the master, the spiritual desires or the fleshly desires? Desires of the flesh, like fire, are a useful servant but a fearsome master.

[Guest pogi]

While I like that saying, it is not to be taken literally. It is simply pointing to the truth that fleshly desires can be good or bad.

There are good spiritual desires and there are good fleshly desires, there are evil spiritual desires and there are evil fleshly desires. It is not a question of what, but whom we choose to make our master. Both our flesh and spirit can do no good or evil of themselves. They are not the source.

Our flesh and its desires get a bad wrap that they don't deserve!

Our body is not a contrasting being to our spirit, I'm sorry. The only truely contrasting beings are God and Satan, and ultimately their followers. Our spirits and flesh are neutral until they make a choice of whom to follow, and judgment has been placed. Until then we are in probation (both body and spirit).

We can be spiritual slaves to Satan just as easily as we can become physical slaves to him. In fact, he attacks our spirits first: shame, greed, power, pride. These spiritual practices and beliefs are what lead to the physical addictions of sex, pornography, drugs, etc. Our evil physical desires, stem from a corrupt spirit, not the other way around.

Give our bodies a break people, they, nor their desires can be our masters. Neither can our spirits. Anybody that believes this way is fighting the wrong fight and has their eyes are off the mark.

Edited October 3, 2011 by pogi

[Seminarysnoozer]

Our bodies are like a vehicle that is equipped with all of the attributes that get us to where we need to go. Our spirits from birth are like inexperienced drivers. If we get in an accident, it would be foolish to blame the car for being equipped with a gas pedal. Where is the accountability here? We need to take spiritual accountability for our physical actions. If the spirit is not accountable for giving into the lusts of the flesh (which derive from Satan, not our flesh), than the fix for lust would have to be a biological one rather than a spiritual one. There is no such thing as physical sin, only spiritual.

.

I think a better analogy would be the body is like a plane on autopilot. It will go in a particular direction, that of the natural man unless the spirit takes control. The autopilot nature of the body is not driven by the spirit. When we get into a "crash" it is the body that crashed even though one can say it is the spirit's "fault" because it didn't take control. But this is all relative to how much control we are allowed in this life. For some, that control is not much. That has to be taken into account.

Is it a sin to have a lustful thought pop into your head? If not, how do you justify that unless you say that the body is what led to that lustful thought and not the spirit. If the spirit was in that much control of every thought then we would be accountable for every little thought in passing. What we are accountable is what we do about those passing thoughts, how we correct the autopilot so to speak. The spirit being perfectly in control of every function of the body would require a perfect body. We have corrupted bodies. I am curious what you think having a fallen corrupted body means?

We are all given different autopilots too. They don't all pull in similar ways.

If the spirit alone could sin then why didn't we "sin" before coming here? We didn't, we just were either more or less valiant but still obedient. Those that chose not to be on the path of obedience took themselves out of the program by following Satan. All that are here, as they enter this world, are perfectly obedient spirits, some more valiant than others but still pure and obedient. Sin is "natural" because it comes from the body's pull. The sin of omission is to not keep our hearts in spiritual matters but even then the body wins over, we all sin and we can never fully control the body ourselves in this life without help. If the pull towards sin didn't come from the body then we would call it "unnatural". Then the 'unnatural man' would be an enemy to God. Why else would we call it the 'natural man'? ... and 'works of the flesh'?

The decision of what aspect of one's dual being is in our heart or what we desire is what we are accountable for. Satan can try to pull us towards carnal desires and make them really tempting but not put into our head the decision to choose carnal over spiritual. If he could control the actual decision then that would not be agency. He can only make it seem like the carnal desires are better. That is the only tool he has to affect our spirit. Because as we choose to like carnal things over spiritual pulls we get used to them and crave them more from a spiritual stand point. This carries over into the spirit world after we die. This is what allows for a graded measurement, where are we between those two poles or opposites, carnal versus spiritual at the time of Judgement.

[Seminarysnoozer]

The question is not whether desires of the flesh are "inherently evil". The question is: Who is the master, the spiritual desires or the fleshly desires? Desires of the flesh, like fire, are a useful servant but a fearsome master.

Thanks, absolutely!

The body can only be evil if it has the option of also being righteous by itself. The body is not "evil" but it provides the opposition to pull away from God, it allows for the knowledge of good and evil and the choice between those two things. Adam and Eve's body became carnal, thus allowing them to know good and evil, because now there is a spectrum. There was no "evil" before there was a carnal body to contend with.

I agree the test of this life is who is the master. But that can't be tested unless there are two separate masters at least in the beginning of the test, the head of which is Christ and Satan, affected through us via our spirit and body respectively. I can't serve two masters, I either serve the spirit or the carnal body. If Christ is the master of the body too, then by serving the body I would be serving two masters. If Satan directly influences our spirit, then by serving the spirit I would be serving two masters. But we can't serve two masters, so their influences are at two poles. In this life though we are a complicated mixture of those two influences through a multitude of choices. As a result of resurrection, all of us including the most evil ones (except the sons of perdition) will have only one master but have a spirit and body, because the body will no longer be corrupted.

The reason I say at the 'beginning of the test' is because of the process of hardening of the heart or obscuration of the right eye. After a while, when a person chooses carnality there is a hardening of the heart and obscuration of the right eye, meaning that person has less access to spiritual influences, then they may not have two masters. I think the opposite is true when a person has their calling and election made sure, then they have fully overcome the carnality of their bodies and it is no longer an issue to contend with. ... I guess those are the exceptions to the rule.

Edited October 3, 2011 by Seminarysnoozer

[Seminarysnoozer]

Give our bodies a break people, they, nor their desires can be our masters. Neither can our spirits. Anybody that believes this way is fighting the wrong fight and has their eyes are off the mark.

I think it is a big "mark" as expressed by many authorities including Paul and Bruce R. McConkie: "There might be a way to put this subject in better perspective. Instead of asking, “Are the General Authorities human?” let me ask you, “Is your bishop human?” What would the answer be? Or if I say to you, “Are the missionaries human?” would the answer be yes or no? It depends entirely on what we are talking about. Certainly they are human in the sense that every foible and frailty and difficulty common to the human race attends all of them and all of us. But on the other hand, the General Authorities and the bishops and the missionaries—and this extends out and includes every member of the Church—ought not to be human in the sense of worldliness or carnal pursuits. None of us should be “human” if by that is meant living as carnal men live.

When we come into the Church, we say that we forsake the world. We are supposed to overcome the world. The Book of Mormon language is that we put off the natural man and become a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord. (Mosiah 3:19.) Well, if we, all of us, lived up to our potential and raised ourselves to the standards that we ought to have, then none of us would be human in the worldly or the carnal sense. Yet with it all we would be so in the sense that we are mortal and all that’s related to it."

[james12]

There are good spiritual desires and there are good fleshly desires, there are evil spiritual desires and there are evil fleshly desires. It is not a question of what, but whom we choose to make our master. Both our flesh and spirit can do no good or evil of themselves. They are not the source.

While I agree that our flesh and spirit can do no good or evil of themselves it is more about who has control over our spirit and who has control over our body. I feel Elder Bednar was very clear about this in a talk given to Rick's College.

Ye Are the Temple of God - Ensign Sept. 2001 - ensign

In it he quotes Brigham Young who said:

“The spirit is pure, and under the special control and influence of the Lord, but the body is of the earth, and is subject to the power of the Devil, and is under the mighty influence of that fallen nature that is of the earth. If the spirit yields to the body, the Devil then has power to overcome the body and spirit of that man, and he loses both"(Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 70).

We can be spiritual slaves to Satan just as easily as we can become physical slaves to him. In fact, he attacks our spirits first: shame, greed, power, pride. These spiritual practices and beliefs are what lead to the physical addictions of sex, pornography, drugs, etc. Our evil physical desires, stem from a corrupt spirit, not the other way around.

Give our bodies a break people, they, nor their desires can be our masters. Neither can our spirits. You are fighting the wrong fight; your eyes are off the mark.

Brigham Young further clarifies the issue of whether our body or spirit is attacked by Satan he says:

“Recollect, brethren and sisters, every one of you, that when evil is suggested to you, when it arises in your hearts, it is through the temporal organization. When you are tempted, buffeted, and step out of the way inadvertently; when you are overtaken in a fault, or commit an overt act unthinkingly; when you are full of evil passion, and wish to yield to it, then stop and let the spirit, which God has put into your tabernacles, take the lead. If you do that, I will promise that you will overcome all evil, and obtain eternal lives. But many, very many, let the spirit yield to the body, and are overcome and destroyed” (Discourses of Brigham Young, sel. John A. Widtsoe [1941], 70).

I do agree that our bodies are not inherently evil but it is clear that Satan attacks us primarily through the body, not the spirit. Elder Bednar further expands this thought after quoting the above Brigham Young statements and 2 Ne 2:26-29 he says:

"I suggest that you thoroughly study and prayerfully ponder the statement of Brigham Young and these verses from 2 Nephi. Neither passage asserts that the physical body is inherently evil. Rather, they teach that we live in a fallen world. The very elements out of which our bodies were created are by nature fallen and ever subject to the pull of sin, corruption, and death. Thus, the Fall of Adam and its consequences affect us most directly through our physical bodies. And yet as President Young stated, we are dual creatures, for at the same time that we inhabit a physical body that is subject to the Fall, we also have a spirit that represents the eternal part of us. We are the spirit sons and daughters of God and have inherited divine qualities from Him. The precise nature of the test of mortality, then, can be summarized in the following questions: Will my body rule over my spirit, or will my spirit rule over my body? Will I yield to the enticings of the natural man or to the eternal man? That, brothers and sisters, is the test. We are here on the earth to develop godlike qualities and to learn to bridle all of the passions of the flesh (see Alma 38:12)."

[Guest pogi]

I think we can both agree that a body on autopilot would be a dead body. It is an impossible scenario. It cannot go in a particular direction on its own. It is not capable of making choices on its own.

No, it is not a sin to have a lustful thought pop into your head. Is it a sin to have a wet dream? Meditating on it or acting on it is a sin. Lets say you do choose to meditate and ruminate over a lustful thought, did it germinate from your body, no; it germinated from Satan. Like I said the body and spirit are incapable of good or bad if left to their own devices. There is no such thing as autopilot.

A fallen corrupted body means one that has fallen from a state of immortality to a state of mortality.

To say that we didn’t sin before coming here I think is a false assumption. Did repentance not exist in the pre-mortal world? I would think so, the atonement was eternal after all. Why do you assume that God only sent the sinless to earth? The scriptures only state that he sent those that chose his plan. Being free from sin is not a pre-req that was mentioned.

If sin is only a “natural pull” of the flesh, how do you explain Satan. Does he have flesh? Because we have flesh, do we have potential to be more evil than Satan?

Why do you assume that the term “natural man” refers to the flesh. After all your own argument is that our spirits define our “true nature” If the flesh was our false nature, then it wouldn’t be called the natural man would it?

It looks like there have been other posts that I haven’t read. Hopefully I am not sounding like an echo here.

[Guest pogi]

You say that “there was no evil before there was a carnal body to contend with.” There was also no good before the “carnal body” (I think you mean mortal; they had flesh in Eden) either! So, what exactly does that prove?

God affects us via our spirit and Satan affects us via our bodies?

You presume that God only influence our spirits and can have no effect on our bodies? Need I read the word of wisdom? Need I offer the testimonies of many recovering addicts? Need I read the miracles of Christ? Let’s not limit God here; he created our bodies after all. You presume that Satan cannot influence our spirits? Let’s not limit Satan here either, after all he is spirit.

If anybody understands addiction (I do) they understand that Satan attacks the spirit first.

Let’s peel back sin like an onion. Can you offer me one physical sin that did not start out as a spiritual weakness? At the core of any sin you will find one of two attributes: Pride or shame (spiritual sin). There are many great talks on this. Adam hid from God because of shame. Any physical act is in direct consequence of spiritual condition. This was the first great assault on the spirit. There was no sin before this, only a transgression that was performed with no knowledge of good or evil.

You guys can “contend with” your body all you want. I choose to embrace and cherish mine. My contention is with the devil.

Edited October 3, 2011 by pogi

[Seminarysnoozer]

I think we can both agree that a body on autopilot would be a dead body. It is an impossible scenario. It cannot go in a particular direction on its own. It is not capable of making choices on its own.

No, it is not a sin to have a lustful thought pop into your head. Is it a sin to have a wet dream? Meditating on it or acting on it is a sin. Lets say you do choose to meditate and ruminate over a lustful thought, did it germinate from your body, no; it germinated from Satan. Like I said the body and spirit are incapable of good or bad if left to their own devices. There is no such thing as autopilot.

A fallen corrupted body means one that has fallen from a state of immortality to a state of mortality.

To say that we didn’t sin before coming here I think is a false assumption. Did repentance not exist in the pre-mortal world? I would think so, the atonement was eternal after all. Why do you assume that God only sent the sinless to earth? The scriptures only state that he sent those that chose his plan. Being free from sin is not a pre-req that was mentioned.

If sin is only a “natural pull” of the flesh, how do you explain Satan. Does he have flesh? Because we have flesh, do we have potential to be more evil than Satan?

Why do you assume that the term “natural man” refers to the flesh. After all your own argument is that our spirits define our “true nature” If the flesh was our false nature, then it wouldn’t be called the natural man would it?

It looks like there have been other posts that I haven’t read. Hopefully I am not sounding like an echo here.

Again, I think I mostly agree with you, we are kind of being specific about points of an overall concept that we are more alike than dissimilar. ... and I enjoy this conversation because it makes me think about it in more detail than I would otherwise.

I appreciate James comments above .... look at Elder Bednar's quotes. I think if one looks at the corrupted body as the tool of Satan in this life (again, not the perfected body after resurrection) then we are mostly saying the same things, because ultimately Satan is the source of the evil but via the body. In the same way Christ is the source of righteousness and salvation, via the spirit.

"True nature" as I gave discussion before means one that is not outwardly obvious. ...see Joseph Worthlin quotes. i.e - the world sees the outside the Lord sees the inside.