Things I Have Been Told By Missionaries And Family

[honeybear]

Do the LDS Temples serve the same purpose as the Jerusalem temple described in the Bible.

I have also been told that Jesus and His apostles instituted and practiced & performed the same rituals that are done in Mormon temples. Is this true?

[Traveler]

Do the LDS Temples serve the same purpose as the Jerusalem temple described in the Bible.

I have also been told that Jesus and His apostles instituted and practiced & performed the same rituals that are done in Mormon temples. Is this true?

The are similarities - especially with the symbolism. Perhaps some of the differenced can be attributed to different times and places - but there are differences.

We do not have records in Bible scriptures that the same ordinances of the temple were performed by Jesus with the Apostles - but there are some non biblical ancient documents that indicate that the apostles were involved in very similar ordinances. In addition the haji (in Islam) has many symbolic similarities with the temple.

Sorry this is vague but because of the sacredness of the temple these things are not to be trod upon by the world. Most likely this is also the reason that such things were not recorded in the common text.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Hello Honeybear,

Can you start by educating me on what the "purpose as the Jerusalem temple described in the Bible" were?

Thank you

[honeybear]

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Do the LDS Temples serve the same purpose as the Jerusalem temple described in the Bible.

I have also been told that Jesus and His apostles instituted and practiced & performed the same rituals that are done in Mormon temples. Is this true?

The are similarities - especially with the symbolism. Perhaps some of the differenced can be attributed to different times and places - but there are differences.

We do not have records in Bible scriptures that the same ordinances of the temple were performed by Jesus with the Apostles - but there are some non biblical ancient documents that indicate that the apostles were involved in very similar ordinances. In addition the haji (in Islam) has many symbolic similarities with the temple.

Thanks Travler, but I can only use the Biblical things rather than non "biblical ancient document" unless I can have them or have access to them I can only go by what is said about them.

Sorry this is vague but because of the sacredness of the temple these things are not to be trod upon by the world. Most likely this is also the reason that such things were not recorded in the common text.

All activities in the biblical temple were public knowledge. They are spelled out in detail in Scripture (for example, Exodus 30:7-10; Leviticus 4:5-7; 16:1-34; 24:1-9).6 The Bible warns the Christian against participation in secret activities (Matthew 10:26-27; Ephesians 5:11-12). And Jesus affirmed that He had no secret teachings, “I spake openly to the world … in secret have I said nothing” (John 18:20). In sharp contrast, the Mormon Church’s insists on keeping its temple rituals secret. I am not trying to be smart in way with you but it is true that the Bible was very open as well as informative about what went on in the Temple so why must the LDS keep things secret?

The Traveler

[Jason]

As far as the OP is concerned, there were some similarities, but they were more in line with the early "heretical" gnostic churches, not the "orthodox" churches of the New Testament. It is very doubtful that Paul, Peter or any of the others would have performed ceremonies even remotely similar to those of the LDS Church today.

Consider that the entire Endowment ceremony was borrowed from the first 3 degrees of Freemasonry, and considering that those ceremonies date no earlier than the 12th century, and you have your answer.

While Masons like to claim that their degrees derive from rituals from King Solomon's Temple, it's so incredible as to warrant a laugh. It is likely that since early LDS believed that the Mason degrees were an "apostate" form of the endowment ceremony, they adopted the idea that their ceremonies derived from King Solomons Temple.

As for the similarities, many early mystery religions kept their ceremonies private for various reasons, one of which was they were only for the initiated. Even some "orthodox" christians early on prohibited non-baptised from attending the Divine Liturgy (which is akin to the Mormon Sacrament meeting). That changed over centuries of time, but the tradition is still extant in some Greek Orthodox churches.

Make sense?

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Well honeybear, I see you've proven true the saying that, "When most people ask a question they're making a statement." You disagree with LDS practices, fine. By the way, Jesus Christ's teachings to his apostles/disciples during his 40 days on earth post-resurrection were not "had openly." But then again, the Bible isn't going to prove the LDS Church is true or false. There are other ways to arrive at such knowledge. Quoting and splicing scripture verses together isn't one of them.

[Traveler]

All activities in the biblical temple were public knowledge. They are spelled out in detail in Scripture (for example, Exodus 30:7-10; Leviticus 4:5-7; 16:1-34; 24:1-9).6 The Bible warns the Christian against participation in secret activities (Matthew 10:26-27; Ephesians 5:11-12). And Jesus affirmed that He had no secret teachings, “I spake openly to the world … in secret have I said nothing” (John 18:20). In sharp contrast, the Mormon Church’s insists on keeping its temple rituals secret. I am not trying to be smart in way with you but it is true that the Bible was very open as well as informative about what went on in the Temple so why must the LDS keep things secret?

The Traveler

No, it was not true not among the ancient Hebrew or among the apostolic Christians. For example look at Hebrews 9:5 "And over it the cherubims of glory shadowing the mercyseat; of which we cannot now speak particularly." The symbolism, meaning and purpose of cherubims is so secret that most Christians have no clue at all. A good example of this hidden and secret symbolism is in Genesis 3:24. This is often referenced incorrectly. The Cherubim did not keep man from the tree of life but rather was placed to "keep the way of the Tree of Life". So where is it explained what is the meaning of the Cherubim using a flaming sword in relationship to man concerning the way to the tree of life? In fact when does man encounter a flaming sword even symbolically?

ANSWER

You will not fine it in Biblical Scripture - well not if you do not know what to look for.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

You will not fine it in Biblical Scripture - well not if you do not know what to look for.

So ae we to take that symbolism as biblical then or someone's ideas that they put into scripture?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Traveler]

You will not fine it in Biblical Scripture - well not if you do not know what to look for.

So ae we to take that symbolism as biblical then or someone's ideas that they put into scripture?

Thanks,

Dr. T

You can make up what ever you like - that seems to be the way for posting on the internet.

However, that these subjects were covered in ancient documents (such as the Dead Sea Scrolls and other text not considered Biblcal but lost until about 50 years ago). We can say the the Church of Jesus Christ of LDS made some lucky guesses 150 years ago.

Let us list some of the symbols of the ancient temple and perhaps someone would like to point out what it means to modern Christians - in particular the non-LDS.

1. Altar of burnt offerings

2. Holy instrument of sacrifice

3. Laver

4. Table of Shewbread and its Instruments.

5. The menorah or sacred candlestick.

6. Altar of Incense.

7. Ark of the Covenant.

8. The ephod.

9. The Breastplate.

10. The Urim and Thummim.

11. The robe - the blue one that was woven without seams.

12. The golden diadem and the mitre.

The Traveler

[BenRaines]

I am not sure I understand the original point. Is it being said that if it is not in the Bible it didn't exist or it didn't happen?

Interesting that there are many writings that were not around when the Bible was compiled. Would they be placed in the Bible today if there was a revision? Was it God who called together the men who took the writings of ancient prophets, Old Testament and writings of those during Christ's time and shortly after, New Testament and told them what to put in the book we know as the Holy Bible?

I know we are not all in agreement but it seems limiting to me to say that God only wanted these writings to be in the Bible and that he would have nothing further to say to his children here upon the earth after about 2,500 years or recorded history from Moses until shortly after the time of Christ then no more.

Ben Raines

[Palerider]

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<div class='quotemain'>

Do the LDS Temples serve the same purpose as the Jerusalem temple described in the Bible.

I have also been told that Jesus and His apostles instituted and practiced & performed the same rituals that are done in Mormon temples. Is this true?

The are similarities - especially with the symbolism. Perhaps some of the differenced can be attributed to different times and places - but there are differences.

We do not have records in Bible scriptures that the same ordinances of the temple were performed by Jesus with the Apostles - but there are some non biblical ancient documents that indicate that the apostles were involved in very similar ordinances. In addition the haji (in Islam) has many symbolic similarities with the temple.

Thanks Travler, but I can only use the Biblical things rather than non "biblical ancient document" unless I can have them or have access to them I can only go by what is said about them.

Sorry this is vague but because of the sacredness of the temple these things are not to be trod upon by the world. Most likely this is also the reason that such things were not recorded in the common text.

All activities in the biblical temple were public knowledge. They are spelled out in detail in Scripture (for example, Exodus 30:7-10; Leviticus 4:5-7; 16:1-34; 24:1-9).6 The Bible warns the Christian against participation in secret activities (Matthew 10:26-27; Ephesians 5:11-12). And Jesus affirmed that He had no secret teachings, “I spake openly to the world … in secret have I said nothing” (John 18:20). In sharp contrast, the Mormon Church’s insists on keeping its temple rituals secret. I am not trying to be smart in way with you but it is true that the Bible was very open as well as informative about what went on in the Temple so why must the LDS keep things secret?

The Traveler

Secret....no........Sacred......YES

[honeybear]

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<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Do the LDS Temples serve the same purpose as the Jerusalem temple described in the Bible.

I have also been told that Jesus and His apostles instituted and practiced & performed the same rituals that are done in Mormon temples. Is this true?

The are similarities - especially with the symbolism. Perhaps some of the differenced can be attributed to different times and places - but there are differences.

We do not have records in Bible scriptures that the same ordinances of the temple were performed by Jesus with the Apostles - but there are some non biblical ancient documents that indicate that the apostles were involved in very similar ordinances. In addition the haji (in Islam) has many symbolic similarities with the temple.

Thanks Travler, but I can only use the Biblical things rather than non "biblical ancient document" unless I can have them or have access to them I can only go by what is said about them.

Sorry this is vague but because of the sacredness of the temple these things are not to be trod upon by the world. Most likely this is also the reason that such things were not recorded in the common text.

All activities in the biblical temple were public knowledge. They are spelled out in detail in Scripture (for example, Exodus 30:7-10; Leviticus 4:5-7; 16:1-34; 24:1-9).6 The Bible warns the Christian against participation in secret activities (Matthew 10:26-27; Ephesians 5:11-12). And Jesus affirmed that He had no secret teachings, “I spake openly to the world … in secret have I said nothing” (John 18:20). In sharp contrast, the Mormon Church’s insists on keeping its temple rituals secret. I am not trying to be smart in way with you but it is true that the Bible was very open as well as informative about what went on in the Temple so why must the LDS keep things secret?

The Traveler

Secret....no........Sacred......YES

[honeybear]

Many of the rules God revealed for the biblical temple are violated in Mormon temples. Here are four examples:

1. God appointed only one temple to reflect the fact that there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 12:5,13-14; 16:5,6). By contrast, the Mormon Church operates scores of temples, in violation of this divine mandate.

2. Only priests were allowed to enter the biblical temple. Worshippers – even the king of Israel5 – came no further than the altar of burnt offering in the courtyard. Since non-priests are allowed to enter and participate in Mormon temple activities, this is another point at which Mormon temple practice violates biblical revelation.

3. All activities in the biblical temple were public knowledge.

4. The Bible sets forth strict lineage requirements for the Aaronic priesthood. It teaches very explicitly that only men from the tribe of Levi and the family line of Aaron were qualified to serve as priests in the temple sanctuary (Numbers 3:10; Exodus 29:9; Numbers 18:1-7).8 The Mormon Church claims to have a restored Aaronic priesthood, but completely ignores this plain lineage requirements of Scripture.9

Many of the rules God revealed for the biblical temple are violated in Mormon temples. Here are four examples:

1. God appointed only one temple to reflect the fact that there is only one true God (Deuteronomy 12:5,13-14; 16:5,6). By contrast, the Mormon Church operates scores of temples, in violation of this divine mandate.

2. Only priests were allowed to enter the biblical temple. Worshippers – even the king of Israel5 – came no further than the altar of burnt offering in the courtyard. Since non-priests are allowed to enter and participate in Mormon temple activities, this is another point at which Mormon temple practice violates biblical revelation.

3. All activities in the biblical temple were public knowledge.

4. The Bible sets forth strict lineage requirements for the Aaronic priesthood. It teaches very explicitly that only men from the tribe of Levi and the family line of Aaron were qualified to serve as priests in the temple sanctuary (Numbers 3:10; Exodus 29:9; Numbers 18:1-7).8 The Mormon Church claims to have a restored Aaronic priesthood, but completely ignores this plain lineage requirements of Scripture.9

The Temple Made Obsolete

At the end of His earthly ministry, Jesus Christ predicted that the Jerusalem temple was about to be destroyed (Matthew 24:2). He told his disciples: “…verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another…”

This prophecy was fulfilled in A.D. 70, when the Roman general Titus demolished the temple; it has never since been rebuilt. Elsewhere, Jesus said that temple worship was about to be replaced by a new form of worship without a temple building: “the hour cometh, when ye shall neither in this mountain, nor yet at Jerusalem, worship the Father … But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him” (John 4:21,23).

A dramatic event at the time of Christ’s death on the cross signaled the end of temple worship. The Gospels record that at the very moment Jesus expired, “the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom” (Matthew 27:51; also Mark 15:38; Luke 23:45). Before it’s rending at the time of Jesus death, the thick temple veil (see Figure 1) had served as a barrier to prevent the priests from seeing into the temple’s inner room, the Holy of Holies. This inner sanctum represented the place of God’s holy and glorious presence. Only the high priest was allowed to enter the Holy of Holies, once a year on the Day of Atonement (Yom Kippur). This restriction signified that access into God’s presence was not truly provided by the Old Covenant. In the words of the New Testament book of Hebrews 9:8, “The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing.” According to ancient Jewish accounts, the thick temple veil was so strong that two teams of oxen pulling in opposite directions could not have torn it.10 Surely, this top-to-bottom tearing of the veil at the moment of Christ’s death was a supernatural act of God, heaven’s response to the completion of Jesus once-for-all atoning sacrifice on the cross. (Notably, no cross is displayed on Mormon temples, unlike Christian churches.) Through faith in Christ, believers are now granted free access into the very presence of God. In the words of the New Testament book of Hebrews, “Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God ... Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need” (Hebrews 4:14-16; see also 6:19;10:19-22).

The rending of the veil signified the end of the temple worship system. That system is now obsolete, and we no longer need a human priest or temple. Under the New Covenant established by Jesus Christ, He is the believer’s High Priest in the very sanctuary of Heaven itself. Thus, a “Christian temple” such as the Mormon Church proposes, is a contradiction in terms.

[karrie91]

Whereas I understand your point, I would like to make another.

Lds use the bibles as one part of the puzzle and not the entire truth. This is the same reason why other religions do not rely on the bible. Instead they make assumptions.

Fact, the bible was not written in t he time it was set, most of it is at least third hand knowledge.

Fact, the bible has been translated so many times that it has lost some of its original meanings.

Fact, certain words meant one thing 100 years ago and a completely different thing now.

What I am trying to say is even though the bible says many things, and has been translated to mean many other things, its difficult to place all the answers in the one source of information.

The temples were kept secret 1000's of years ago. the difference is that it wasnt focused on as a secret. The average person was not allowed in there, did they know what happened...Probably not. Did each priest know what went in all over the temple....Probably not.

Another example for why it is treated with respect is, to use an analagy, your prayers at the end of a day some are shared and some are so deep in your heart that heavenly father is the only one you let in. The temple is the same to most LDS, a place so buried in your heart that you want to hold it so tight just like the hearts cry to our father or the thoughts that arent shared. Everyone deserves the opportunity for that special place to be close to Heavenly father.

It goes back to what was said earlier Sacred not secret.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

I'll give you credit for doing your Jewish research HoneyBear. Although the Jewish accounts of the veil are mixed, as some record that the veil was as thick as a man's palm, certainly not able to resist "two teams of oxen." The important thing was not how thick the veil was that was torn, but that it was torn. As you said, this signaled the fulfilling of the Mosaic Law of blood sacrifices which the Old Testament temple revolved around. I penned a couplet about this some time ago, and I'll reproduce it here:

In the Law of Moses a lamb without spot was often killed;

In the Lamb of God the Law of Moses was once fulfilled.

Your entire premise is confused. Why? LDS temple worship doesn't purport to mirror the old testament temple system. If the LDS temple was a place where bullocks were killed and goats' blood was sprinkled on the horns of altars and on priests, then yeah even I'd say "What's the deal? Jesus did away with all that!"

But the LDS temple is a place where ordinances and promises of a new covenant are housed. Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law. I don't think you'll find one LDS member who'll argue that point. So your whole point being that there's no need for temple worship as found in the old testament is a moot point. We agree.

The problem, my friend, is that Jesus doing away with one system of temple worship isn't an authoritative ban on any other type of temple worship. Just because Titus razed the temple and Jesus prophesied of it doesn't mean temples wouldn't figure into further systems of worship and covenants. Well I guess you're saying it means that, but I think it's a stretch to conclude that.

I have to laugh/fall asleep whenever I read these "Biblical objections" to the LDS Church. I mean, the whole foundation of the LDS Church is new revelations, new authority, new doctrines (old ones restored)...so of course its not going to be limited by old testament models! Anyway, this board is not a place for anti-mormons to shred our faith and engage in debates as old as Methuselah. This is the gospel discussion board...not the anti-mormon sound off board. Thanks. :)

I've closed this topic. HoneyBear has three other accounts registered to their IP address, and 26 posts to 5 different users all bashing the LDS Church. HoneyBear and his/her alias accounts have been deleted. Multiple user ID's are not allowed...choose one and stay with it. Thanks.