I Have 6 Questions....

[rosie321]

Have you checked your antispam folders in your mental email?

Maybe there's a message tied up in there.

I think that some of the keywords faith, patience, hope, Holy spirit , to name a few are creating a system default in the communication between you and God.

Suggestion maybe your next step should be picking up the scriptures-all of them since you are determining whether or not the church is true.

Do a topical study starting with these topics. Read every verse you can find on it. Then pray about it.

Some words to start with:

Holy Spirit-since that is how the Lord will speak to you.

Faith[/-since this is what people need lots of especially when they begin.

Other good ones -prayer, christ, God, atonement, grace...........too much good stuff we have to think about.

Let us know your thoughts are in a couple of days. Give time for your mind to ponder, meditate on and process things. God does not usually make things magically appear (although he is more than able to). The best things are usually worked at and labored for. So to look up a few verses and not really stop to hear what Heavenly Father is saying to you is not good. You will not get the answer you seek and will walk away frustrated. Because you will not be communicating in the same manner that Heavenly Father does. The messages will be confused. As you are able to communicate on basic things you will be able to understand more complex things.

Just some suggestions to help you out.

Blessings

Rosie.

[JoshuaFKon]

And at the you're ready to stop asking???

How much do you REALLY want to know Him???

I think you must misunderstand me, I'm not going to "stop asking" but I'm not going to ignore all evidence and Ask God the same prayer 1000 times untill I get an answer.

I want to know Him (and I believe I do) with all my heart, what could be more important?

Thanks

Josh

P.S. just to get back on topic....I am looking for people's thoughts on the Book of Abraham

[Ray]

P.S. just to get back on topic....I am looking for people's thoughts on the Book of Abraham

I gave you some. From Hugh Nibley, no less. What do you want, only knowledge from God?

Oops, nevermind. You've answered that question. And I think you now know how to get it. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

Yes Ray, you've already answered that question,

I was thinking perhaps more people also had an opinion,

But thank you for answering it before.

Josh B)

[rosie321]

I was thinking perhaps more people also had an opinion,

Maybe more do but will not respond because you are willing to complete some very basic steps to understanding something.

From all of what you have said there seems to be 1 or more things going on here. Maybe a mixture.

1. You are just setting people up to try to shoot down whatever they say as was pointed out before.

2. You are unwilling to go through necessary steps to gain the knowledge you seek. Instead of repeating your same argument over and over maybe go back and do what I suggested a few posts above. Take a topic one that is foundational to the gospel. I suggested the Holy Spirit. Don't just say I saw it and thats it. Treat it like you've never seen it before. Spend some serious time with it to learn and comprehend it.

One of the inactive members who introduced me to the church said something wise when I recieved the Book of Mormon and wanted to read as quickly as possible. Dissect it. Have the truth instantaneously handed to me. Even though he was inactive and doing things outside of church standards he said thats not what you do. Yes it can be done. But this is a different kind of book. You will miss a lot was the jist of what he told me. If you are serious then do the steps.

You are not going to be personally airlifted to the mountaintops of understanding. You need to trudge up to the top like the rest of us. There are many beneficial lessons that you need to learn while doing so.

I am sorry but I can't help but feel that you fit more into no. 1. That scares and angers me to see you trifling with sacred things. I have no problem with someone who has learned and studied and honestly does not feel the same expressing their view or feeling that way. Like Jason for example. But I do have a problem with someone who asks for help and spits into the hands of those trying to help. Who will not try and do the most basic things for himself. If you want to understand then at least make some effort. No wonder you are not getting any of the answers you seek

[Ray]

Josh B)

You will see a lot better without those shades on, Josh.

Or can you not look at the Light 'cause it's too bright. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

Maybe more do but will not respond because you are willing to complete some very basic steps to understanding something.

From all of what you have said there seems to be 1 or more things going on here. Maybe a mixture.

1. You are just setting people up to try to shoot down whatever they say as was pointed out before.

If someone gives me an answer that I dissagree with, of course I'm going to point out why I dissagre with it. I have tried to point out problems I see with certain answers as politely as possible. what would you have me do?

You are unwilling to go through necessary steps to gain the knowledge you seek. Instead of repeating your same argument over and over maybe go back and do what I suggested a few posts above. Take a topic one that is foundational to the gospel. I suggested the Holy Spirit. Don't just say I saw it and thats it. Treat it like you've never seen it before. Spend some serious time with it to learn and comprehend it.

I believe I have done that with Mormonism, I had never seen it before, I spent lots of serious time with it to try and learn and comprehend it. However, I found some of the answers (in my opinion) to be lacking.

I am sorry but I can't help but feel that you fit more into no. 1. That scares and angers me to see you trifling with sacred things.

You honestly think that I would spend this much time on something because I want to "shoot down" anwers?

I'm trying to understand. But I don't think pointing out problems with answers I receive as "trifling with sacred things" I apologize if I have come off like that. it is not my intention.

But I do have a problem with someone who asks for help and spits into the hands of those trying to help. Who will not try and do the most basic things for himself.

What effort would you like me to make? Read the Book of Mormon? Talk to LDS members? Read books from both sides? disscuss the problems I have on a Mormon Fourm? what should I do?

Thanks

Josh

[rosie321]

Sit down. You and God. Now you have some things to go back with from the last time. Pick a topic and study it. One that would be basic to any faith. Spirit , faith etc.

As far as being afraid to ask God again. Obviously you have not gotton a satisfactory answer or you would not keep asking the same question. IN the NT there is the story of the widow who is encouraged to go back before the judge. Keep asking it says. Eventually the judge will grow weary. Go to Heavenly Father. In the BOM 2 Nephi 32: it clearly says that the SPIRIT OF THE LORD teaches a man TO PRAY and the EVIL SPIRIT teaches a man NOT to pray. Although I know of no scripture in the Bible that states it so clearly off the top of my head I believe most christians would agree to that.

Faith one of the topics I suggested you read about in Alma 32 says experiment on my words. Think of a scientist. They go experience lots of errors along the way. Without those errors they wouldn't know what is

true or not. Would you trust a perfect study? With no error. Chances are not. You'd either think it was biased or worry what might have been missed.

You are called to be a scientist in Gods laboratory. What you are looking for is the truth for Joshua. There may be failed attempts along the way. Heck some may wind up rather messy. But you have to keep trying and experimenting. Maybe you will find that the church is completely false -which I doubt. Or you may find some truths in there that you never expected. The thing is is that you have to get into the lab and start experimenting. No one else can do it for you. You are the only one to test in Joshuas laboratory the idea of whether it is true or not.

Your quiting before you start or not following basic laboratory rules will cause the laboratory to blow up and you will fail. Not because it couldn't work but because you didn't try.

Happy experimenting!

[JoshuaFKon]

Sit down. You and God. Now you have some things to go back with from the last time. Pick a topic and study it. One that would be basic to any faith. Spirit , faith etc.[

I have studied, an I am familier with all such basic concepts, I have been a christian for many years.

As far as being afraid to ask God again. Obviously you have not gotton a satisfactory answer or you would not keep asking the same question. IN the NT there is the story of the widow who is encouraged to go back before the judge. Keep asking it says. Eventually the judge will grow weary. Go to Heavenly Father.

This verse is talking about an "unjust judge" not God, Why was he "un-just?" because he wouldn't help her until she asked him 1000 times. I await an answer from God.

You seem to be saying that disscussing my opinion on this fourm is wrong, is that correct?

Your quiting before you start or not following basic laboratory rules will cause the laboratory to blow up and you will fail. Not because it couldn't work but because you didn't try.

I am not "quiting before I start" I have not quit yet, are you saying that I can't/shouldn't disscuss my opinion on here untill God tells me that Mormonism is correct?

Thank you,

Josh

[Ray]

Wow. I really like those thoughts from you, Rosie. You have a very nice way of saying things. :)

It made me think of some science experiments, where something was said to really work, but those who had tried it hadn't tried it for long, or had not met all the conditions.

For example:

If I were to tell someone that water will freeze if they put it in the freezer, because I had done it and it worked, they might come back and say that it DOESN"T work, because it really didn't work for them./

Perhaps I didn't mention some parameters OR they didn't ask some questions which would help them to succeed in the experiment.

The freezer must have power from a good power source. Proper power is essential for operation.

The freezer must function when it has proper power. It needs all of the parts that it needs.

The freezer must be set to the proper temperature, even when it has power and functions.

The water must be placed in the freezer long enough. If not left long enough, it won't freeze.

And in all of those factors, there are many other factors, to make water freeze in a freezer.

Just imagine a child saying something won't work while thinking he did everything right, and when he finds out there is more to be done, he just does it, and it works, and he smiles. :)

[Dr T]

Josh,

For someone on vacation, you sure spend a lot of time on the computer.

[JoshuaFKon]

For someone on vacation, you sure spend a lot of time on the computer.

I am a computer addict , (Just wait till I get back from vacation) Plus, The weather is terrible.

Josh

[Dr T]

Bad weather on your vacation or at home? If it's at home, I guess I'll be reading A LOT MORE of your thoughts.

Dr. T

[JoshuaFKon]

The weather on vacation is bad....so I would be on here 24/7, except my internet connection is "low" lol

:)

But yeah, wait till I get home to my beautiful new desktop computer with high-speed internet connection. (I miss it so.... ) then I'll really have the time to post on here alot...lol

Josh

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Josh, the best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon. Forget all the criticisms against or justifications for it. Just take it as it is. See what you think of its teachings, not its grammar. That should be step one. Period. After that, you will really have something to discuss, not just other people's concerns. When you can say, "I read in 2 Nephi 2 about the atonement and I wonder why it says x, y or z," then you'll be on the right path.

Imagine me critiquing the Bible without having read anything but the verses being critiqued. Read it through so you'll know what you're condemning/accepting.

[JoshuaFKon]

Josh, the best thing to do is read the Book of Mormon. Forget all the criticisms against or justifications for it. Just take it as it is. See what you think of its teachings, not its grammar. That should be step one. Period. After that, you will really have something to discuss, not just other people's concerns. When you can say, "I read in 2 Nephi 2 about the atonement and I wonder why it says x, y or z," then you'll be on the right path.

Imagine me critiquing the Bible without having read anything but the verses being critiqued. Read it through so you'll know what you're condemning/accepting.

I have read much of the Book of Mormon, and I mostly agree with it (doctrinally) What I do not agree with is The Book of Abraham, (which, by the way, also seems to conflict with the Book of Mormon as I said before)

I have not read the entire Bible (ever tried to read Leviticus?) But I have read most of it, I believe that I have studied Mormonism enough before I came on here (as you pointed out) That my opinion is worth considering.

But thanks for your thought, I will continue reading The Book of Mormon untill I finish.

Thanks again,

Josh

[Guest MrsS]

JoshuaK,

You would do well to follow the advice given to Elder Robert S Wood by his political philosopher - I have put it in bold below.

Ensign, May 2006, 93

Instruments of the Lord’s Peace

Elder Robert S. Wood

Of the Seventy

I recall that as a graduate student I wrote a critique of an important political philosopher. It was clear that I disagreed with him. My professor told me that my paper was good, but not good enough. Before you launch into your criticism, she said, you must first present the strongest case for the position you are opposing, one that the philosopher himself could accept. I redid the paper. I still had important differences with the philosopher, but I understood him better, and I saw the strengths and virtues, as well as limitations, of his belief. I learned a lesson that I’ve applied across the spectrum of my life.

I also agree with Rosie, Desire', Apostle Knight, Ray - you have not given enough time and energy into studying, pondering (See also Meditate; Think

Prov. 4: 26 Ponder the path of thy feet.

Prov. 5: 21 he pondereth all his goings.

Prov. 21: 2 Lord pondereth the hearts.

Prov. 24: 12 doth not he that pondereth the heart consider it.

Luke 2: 19 Mary kept all these things, and pondered them.

1 Ne. 11: 1 sat pondering in mine heart I was caught away.

2 Ne. 4: 15 scriptures, and my heart pondereth them.

2 Ne. 32: 1 why do ye ponder these things in your hearts.

Hel. 10: 2 pondering upon the things which the Lord had shown.

3 Ne. 17: 3 ponder upon the things which I have said.

Moro. 10: 3 receive these things, and ponder it in your hearts.

D&C 30: 3 ponder upon the things which you have received.

D&C 88: 62 leave these sayings with you to ponder.

D&C 88: 71 ponder the warning in their hearts.

D&C 138: 1 I sat in my room pondering over the scriptures.

JS-H 1: 47 third visit . . . I was again left to ponder. from: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/p/129 )

from dictionary.com : ponder

v : reflect deeply on a subject; "I mulled over the events of the afternoon"; "philosophers have speculated on the question of God for thousands of years"; "The scientist must stop to observe and start to excogitate" [syn: chew over, think over, meditate, excogitate, contemplate, muse, reflect, mull, mull over, ruminate, speculate] WordNet ® 2.0, © 2003 Princeton University

and praying about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Since you have stated numerous times that you have prayed and have not received answers from God - perhaps you need to check out dictionary.com, and any and all of the on-line bibles that you have at your disposal as to what prayer is and how to pray. You also need to study up on How to hear when Father answers me.

You also have to Shut Up and Listen before you get UP OFF YOUR KNEES! In Other Words: Give Father the common courtesy of sufficient time to answer you, AND the common courtesy to listen with your heart and soul - NOT with you ears and mind. God speaks to your soul, i.e. spirit and to your heart.

Go to lds.org, click on Gospel Library, then do an advanced search, click on All Materials, then put in the exact phrase: How to hear answers, or something to that effect. See if that helps you. Put in prayers, answers to prayers, etc.

[JoshuaFKon]

You would do well to follow the advice given to Elder Robert S Wood by his political philosopher - I have put it in bold below.

Ok, I'll do that, But what is the strongest case for your position?

As for my praying,

I know how to pray, I have been a christian for many years, and as I've said I've prayed about this before, but if it makes you happy, I will try again.

But if I don't get an answer in.... then no one asks me to pray about the Book of Mormon to see if its true, for...a week. deal?

If you don't mind me asking...if I go away and "ponder" it for a certain ammount of time, and don't reach the conclusion you have reached. Will anyone answer my questions based on logic without telling me:

(1) I shouldn't question you

(2) My motives are wrong

(3) Don't tell us things that anti-mormons say, because its not valid

(4) If I really was honest about wanting to know, God would have told me

(5) I'm not trying hard enough, or correctly and that's why God hasn't told me

(6) It's all about faith, I "know" its true, so I won't take the time to answer your pointless, mormon-hating questions.

What do I have to do/say/read/understand/ponder/ to get past that? I will do it. (within reason)

I can't make God tell me it's true, I will try again, but lets just say that for some reason I don't hear from God. Will you try to answer my questions? without using your "knowing"

Thanks,

Josh

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Josh, that's just a stupid question. I'm not saying you're stupid, but that question is, namely: If I don't feel God tell me the BoM is true, will you tell me why you think it is true, based on logic, without your "knowing?"

The main reason most LDS believe in the BoM is because we believe God told us it's His word. If we can't use our testimony as a reason for belief, we are left with, what...logic? And when was logic superior to revelation? Sure, it can be debated whereas whether God spoke to me or not is between Him and me. You just strike me as wasting your time and ours with this angle.

All the logical reasons in the world why people believe the BoM doesn't make it true or untrue. Moroni 10:3-5 doesn't say, "Read this book and find at least ten logically compelling reasons to believe it," it says, "Read this book, pray about it in faith, and God will tell you."

You're looking for man's wisdom to defend God's omniscience. Of course, no contest. The best "logic" for believing the BoM is at the sites you claim to have visited (which I believe you have), such as Jeff Lindsay's, FAIR, etc... so my question is what more can you possibly hope to get here? Most lay LDS members aren't archeologists, linguists, ethnohistorians, or even people with Master's Degrees. So why in the world would you think we'd give you answers different from the best apologetics out there?

When is enough enough for you? What is it you're really hoping to read? What do you want from us? The same stuff you've read already? Why? Why not just take the time to read the scriptures (I have read Leviticus actually...some of the most incredible imagery/symbolism/principles foreshadowing Christ's Messianic role are contained in it by the way, such as Lev. 17:11). I just don't understand what you want.

If God said the BoM is true, it's true. If He didn't, all the logic in the world won't make it true. If He did, all the logic in the world won't make it untrue. See the problem? If you don't feel God's assurance that the BoM is what Joseph Smith said it was, don't believe in it. If you do feel God told you it's true, don't disbelieve in it because of logic.

[shanstress70]

You would do well to follow the advice given to Elder Robert S Wood by his political philosopher - I have put it in bold below.

Ok, I'll do that, But what is the strongest case for your position?

As for my praying,

I know how to pray, I have been a christian for many years, and as I've said I've prayed about this before, but if it makes you happy, I will try again.

But if I don't get an answer in.... then no one asks me to pray about the Book of Mormon to see if its true, for...a week. deal?

If you don't mind me asking...if I go away and "ponder" it for a certain ammount of time, and don't reach the conclusion you have reached. Will anyone answer my questions based on logic without telling me:

(1) I shouldn't question you

(2) My motives are wrong

(3) Don't tell us things that anti-mormons say, because its not valid

(4) If I really was honest about wanting to know, God would have told me

(5) I'm not trying hard enough, or correctly and that's why God hasn't told me

(6) It's all about faith, I "know" its true, so I won't take the time to answer your pointless, mormon-hating questions.

What do I have to do/say/read/understand/ponder/ to get past that? I will do it. (within reason)

I can't make God tell me it's true, I will try again, but lets just say that for some reason I don't hear from God. Will you try to answer my questions? without using your "knowing"

Thanks,

Josh

Josh, even though I'm non-LDS, I agree wholeheartedly with a lot of what my cohorts are saying. If you are interested in possibly becoming Mormon, you need to read the BoM and pray about whether it is truthful or not. Apparently, God flat-out talks to some, but most of us aren't as lucky. I, like you, have never gotten a clear answer from God, where he actually says words to me. For me, it is all about the feeling I get when you ask for an answer - I just realized this not too long ago.

I was LDS and began having very bad feelings about the LDS church, where I would feel physically sick about some aspects of the church. I prayed and prayed and received what I think is a confirmation that I should leave. All the while I was studying LDS sources and non.

Now others will tell you that they get just the opposite feeling, or that God has actually told them that the LDS church is true, when asking about the truthfulness of the LDS church. Who's right? I'm not sure, but people are definitely getting mixed messages.

All I know is that I feel much more at peace since leaving, and I have found my truth. Others would feel totally lost if they left, like they are turning their backs on truth.

You can talk to others till you're blue in the face, but all you can do is inform yourself by reading, give much thought and prayer to the subject, and then search your heart to see what your answer is. Faith is just like that. You will find no proof, or faith wouldn't be an issue.

Good luck to you! And didn't you say you're 18? Take your time - don't feel like you have to figure out the truths of the world today.

[Dr T]

Hello all,

I hold logic pretty high on my importance list. If we are going to say that "Logic does not apply to God" or “Nothing can bound/limit God” I need to point out the irony in that statement. Using logic to define things about God (who He is, what He is like, etc.) This, in itself, is showing what you are trying to argue against. If we cannot base God in logic, then we end up not being able to say/know anything about Him.

Dr. T

[Jason]

Im with Dr. T on this. We have two competing forces here: The Reasonable Man, and the Emotional Man. Most Latter-day Saints encourage we pay more attention to the Emotional Man than the other. But to deny one is to ignore who we are and the very basis of what makes us human.

Our beliefs must at least be reasonable, or we are lying to ourselves. Intellectual suicide is just as much a cause for depression as emotional repression.

[Ray]

When I say that I believe it is best to base our beliefs, or at least my beliefs, on faith from God, I don’t ever intend to convey the message that logic should be avoided. Logic is an essential element in analyzing my thoughts about anything…

BUT logic alone won’t tell me the truth, because LOGIC IS NOT ENOUGH.

For instance, using logic, I can state:

I believe what I believe because what I believe is logical, so what I believe that is logical must therefore in fact be true.

Right? Isn’t that logical?

If what I believe is logical, then it MUST in fact be true?

Can anyone see that what I believe MAY NOT be true, if logical?

And btw, I’m being a tad facetious, because I know a conclusion attained using logic is sometimes not really the truth, but if you believe you can show me I’m wrong, then go ahead and knock yourself out.

Now, in regards to the matter of faith, faith is another word for assurance, so when one has faith one has an assurance that what one believes is the truth, even when one cannot see the truth because TRUTH cannot be seen. And just as one can be sure of the truth, others can be sure one is wrong, when in fact what one knows or is totally sure of is what God assured one is true.

And no matter what you or others may say, I believe God assures me with truth, and I also believe His assurance of truth can help all of us become one.

[rosie321]

You cannot have true faith without logic or proof. You can't have one without the other. Its a marriage of the two. To better explain my thought let me twist and pervert scripture for a second as this verse is not found there with this wording. For neither is faith without logic or logic without faith in the Lord. Sorry. But those words seemed to fit quite well there.

Its a magical blend of both. Thats the mystery of life. Almost everything demands some kind of balancing act. (Grace vs Law/works is another popular balancing topic) Our job is to find out through trial and error what that is for us. It is for our learning and appreciation to find out what that is for us. Whille we may have glimpes -Underneath or beyond faith and logic is usually the ultimate truth. Through struggles and effort we draw closer to the wonderful beauty of ultimate truth.

True faith, in my opinion, gets you to the point where you can listen and discover what is true.

It also keeps you through all the storms that comes against it. It keeps you sane when you are unable to see or do not know something. Or when things are too deep for words. Its a peaceful knowing. Faith focuses more on the heart.

Fleeting thought-I can't remember what the term was for it in psychology for the chaos that can be if things are not ordered in your mind. It can be distressing. Faith can balance things out and keeps you sane.

Logic is necessary and can steer our faith in the right direction. So we aren't tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine. Logic focuses more on the brain.

Both have elements in them that are beneficial . Some people are more prone one way than another. Your mission in life. To keep growing and to find the magical blend that leads you to ultimate truth.

[Dr T]

So then, what I'm hearing is that logic can take us so far (in justifying our beliefs) and we come to a cliff. Once secure enough that our belief system hold up to logical scrutiny then we have faith to take a leap in that belief. Is that correct? That seems to suggest then, that we should focus on some of the main issues that contradict what our belief system is based upon. There really should not be any fear of this because if our belief system has been established upon a solid foundation, all beliefs (in our system) must be able to withstand any criticism that is thrown at it.

Dr. T