I Have 6 Questions....

[Ray]

So then, what I'm hearing is that logic can take us so far (in justifying our beliefs) and we come to a cliff. Once secure enough that our belief system hold up to logical scrutiny then we have faith to take a leap in that belief. Is that correct? That seems to suggest then, that we should focus on some of the main issues that contradict what our belief system is based upon. There really should not be any fear of this because if our belief system has been established upon a solid foundation, all beliefs (in our system) must be able to withstand any criticism that is thrown at it.

Dr. T (the text was highlighted by me, the me that is known as "Ray", meaning the "Ray" that is posting as me right now, and yes "Ray" has my full authority)

That approach might seem logical to some, Doc, and while some might prefer it, I don't.

I'd rather ask God to tell me the truth before I BEGIN to believe something.

But I need to ask Him something SPECIFICALLY. I once asked God to tell me ALL truth, and He asked where I want to begin.

So I began by asking a question about something I wanted to know, and I tossed around all of my thoughts about that while I asked Him to show me the truth.

There were lots of reasonable conclusions, and all of them seemed logical, but only the TRUTH could set me free from the questions I had in my mind.

And when God assured me of what was the truth, I knew it, and I still know it know. I know it's the truth, and I know it's from God because God removed all of my doubts... about the thing I had asked Him about.

If I didn't know that, I still would ask God, was it YOU, or somebody else? And I'd never stop asking while I had any doubt it was God and He told me the truth.

And yes, I've also felt Satan. They give totally different feelings. And if you don't know that then you don't know God, no matter what others have told you.

[Dr T]

"(the text was highlighted by me, the me that is known as "Ray", meaning the "Ray" that is posting as me right now, and yes "Ray" has my full authority)" That was funny. Thanks, Ray.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

The problem with logic is it's only helpful when based on correct premises.

Many people thought cats were spreading the Black Plague, and killed as many cats as they could find. Of course rats were one of the biggest causes, and without cats to kill them the Black Plague spread even faster.

Killing cats was logical, but their premise (cats are the cause) was false, hence logic hurt them, not helped them.

That's what I mean. We're never going to agree on our premises, so using logic "alone" won't do any good. I'm not saying I don't find the gospel logical. I said I'm not going to waste time explaining how logic fits into my beliefs because Joshua has pretty much already read the best apologetic "logic" out there.

What else does he want?

[Dr T]

Thank you AK. So far, it seems that what has been established is, "Logic could be faulty and unable to be relied upon" and "Based only of emotion/feeling, it might all be subjective." What's left?

Thank you,

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

That's the point I'm making. Logic cannot destroy my spiritual witness. Logic cannot create a spiritual witness. What we feel God tells us is totally subjective, because we're the only one who can truly know what we feel and experience. So here's the situation.

1) Joshua wants to believe the LDS faith is correct, but needs logical reasons to do so.

or

2) Joshua believes the LDS faith is false, and wants to use logic to prove it's false.

In either case, it's been tried before. Logic can't be used to prove or disprove God's existence beyond doubt. It's a matter of faith. That's what I'm saying. The LDS doctrines are very logical...the gospel is logical. Trying to prove that the Book of Mormon is true scripture using logic...or the reverese...is ineffectual at best. It's not a text from Kant or Schopenhauer or Hegel where their precepts stand or fall based on psychological or scientific logic.

It's a book whose source plates we no longer have, which was delivered and taken by an angel most of us haven't seen, which was translated by a man we've never met, which contains teachings of peoples dead centuries ago...but yeah, let's debate its authenticity based on logic.

I don't believe the Book of Mormon is God's word because it's logical to believe so. I do happen to think it's logical to believe so, but that's not my prime reason for believing it. Okay Josh, here's a lil' logic for you.

The Book of Mormon's teachings oppose Satan. It teaches us to pray, to give unselfishly to others, to love enemies, to study God's words (including the Bible), to share the gospel with others, to rely on Jesus for salvation, and how to resist Satan and conquer him through God.

Now, would Satan "inspire" a man to write a book that gives its readers tools to defeat him? Then again, could a farmer with about a 3rd grade level of education fabricate such an inspiring book in about 60-70 days without a reference library, scholarly editors, theological training, etc... ?

Here's what it comes down to:

A bad man could not have fabricated such an inspiring book, and a good man would not have fabricated such an inspiring book.

As Jesus said in response to ridiculous claims about the source of his power, if Jesus cast out devils by Satan's power, then Satan is divided against himself and a house divided cannot stand. If Satan aided Joseph Smith in writing a book whose purpose is to oppose Satan, his house is divided and cannot stand. If Joseph Smith wrote the book on his own, without divine aid, that's a bigger miracle to me than if angels and God did assist him as he said.

I think it's illogical to assume Joseph Smith made up such a theologically compelling book of scripture without divine aid. But I know you think it's logical that he could have. Which is why I said logic is pointless when discussing whether the Book of Mormon is scripture or not. Either God says it's true or He doesn't.

If you don't feel God told you the BoM is true, don't believe it's true. That's fine. I don't know what else you expect us to do.

We can't convince you if God can't, and you can't convince us if God already has.

[Ray]

The LDS doctrines are very logical...the gospel is logical. Trying to prove that the Book of Mormon is true scripture using logic...or the reverese...is ineffectual at best. It's not a text from Kant or Schopenhauer or Hegel where their precepts stand or fall based on psychological or scientific logic. (AK's text put in bold by Ray)

Hi AK,

I don't get what you meant by my quote???

Are you saying the texts from those other people can be proven by logic alone???

If so, using logic alone, how could you prove that they wrote them, and that what they wrote was true???

Even if THEY told you that THEY wrote those words, and it WAS true, how could you prove that to others if you simply used logic alone???

And btw, my point is simply, YOU CAN'T. We must hear that from THEM, and then try their words, to know for a fact they are true.

And to "try them" of course I'll ask God. :)

We can't convince you if God can't, and you can't convince us if God already has.

Nice closer.

[Dr T]

Hi AK,

I love that you are here to talk to. I'm taking a snippet of your last post, from the middle, so it should be known that it is out of context.

I don't believe the Book of Mormon is God's word because it's logical to believe so. I do happen to think it's logical to believe so, but that's not my prime reason for believing it. Okay Josh, here's a lil' logic for you.

The Book of Mormon's teachings oppose Satan. It teaches us to pray, to give unselfishly to others, to love enemies, to study God's words (including the Bible), to share the gospel with others, to rely on Jesus for salvation, and how to resist Satan and conquer him through God.

Now, would Satan "inspire" a man to write a book that gives its readers tools to defeat him? Then again, could a farmer with about a 3rd grade level of education fabricate such an inspiring book in about 60-70 days without a reference library, scholarly editors, theological training, etc... ?

Here's what it comes down to:

A bad man could not have fabricated such an inspiring book, and a good man would not have fabricated such an inspiring book.

As Jesus said in response to ridiculous claims about the source of his power, if Jesus cast out devils by Satan's power, then Satan is divided against himself and a house divided cannot stand. If Satan aided Joseph Smith in writing a book whose purpose is to oppose Satan, his house is divided and cannot stand. If Joseph Smith wrote the book on his own, without divine aid, that's a bigger miracle to me than if angels and God did assist him as he said.

I think it's illogical to assume Joseph Smith made up such a theologically compelling book of scripture without divine aid.

In that excerpt, you are proposing that the BOM gives its readers tools to defeat Satan and therefore would not be consistent with a divinely inspired translation of such material. I admit, that is a plausible possibility but I would not end there in our speculation. Thanks for sharing you option on that. I would add however, that it could be just the opposite of what you are proposing. That would look like this, "Satan has led someone astray from the truth to preach another gospel that, when read and prayed about produces a ‘good feeling/assurance’ of its genuineness and therefore leads thousands away from the 'true God.'" I'm not saying that is what's happening here but I wanted to lay it out as another view point that might being going on. Seeing them side by side one says Satan is being defeated and the other is saying that Satan has craftily maskeraded as an angel of light while really leading people away from God and therefore strengthening his ends. It might be that more people will be in hell with him, all the while he is snickering, "I've lead them all astray and they think they are being godly." Again, all reading, please understand that it is just an alternative understanding of what might be happening.

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

In that excerpt, you are proposing that the BOM gives its readers tools to defeat Satan and therefore would not be consistent with a divinely inspired translation of such material.

Huh? I didn't say that at all.

It might be that more people will be in hell with him, all the while he is snickering, "I've lead them all astray and they think they are being godly."

So Satan is going to tell people to fight him and do good and that way get them to end up in Hell with him? My understanding is that all non-LDS Christians believe you have to accept Christ as your Savior to be saved. IF that were true, would Satan "inspire" a book whose message is to accept Christ as Savior?

[Dr T]

Hi A.K.

Huh? I didn't say that at all.

I did not communicate what I was trying to say appropriately. Sorry. I meant to say, "that the BOM gives its readers tools to fight against Satan and therefore would be inconsistent with what we know Satan's game plan to be."

In my elementary understanding of Satan, I would see him as wanting to lead people away from God/ensnare people with lies.

It seems likely that he can do that in multiple ways. One way might be to make other things more attractive like sin, for example. Another way might be to make people think/feel they are following God while in actuality, He can plain a false understanding of God which can lead people to not actually walk the correct path. That's all I was trying to say. I'm not challenging, just laying out different options.

Thank you, ApostleKnight,

Dr. T

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Gotcha Dr. T, thanks for the clarification.

I suppose anything's possible, but getting back to logic (which is so highly prized)...is it logical for Satan to fight against himself? I think every Christian would agree that praying to God and loving others are good things, regardless of their take on LDS teachings in general. I don't think it's logical to assume that Satan would fight against himself in an effort to mislead others. How is encouraging people to pray and serve their fellowmen "tricking" them into secretly following Satan? I know what you're saying--for the sake of hypothetical argument--but I wonder if anyone else thinks Satan would encourage people to be good in an effort to mislead them? Is that logical?

[JoshuaFKon]

I suppose anything's possible, but to emphasize Joshua's emphasis...is it logical for Satan to fight against himself? I don't care what someone thinks "the path" is, it surely includes praying and loving others...things Satan would never encourage.

A.K.

How many religons encorage prayer and loving others?

The fact the you love others does not prove you are correct.

And even if Mormons are "saved" (personally I don't know, do Mormons think Christians are "saved"?)

That doesn't prove you're right either. If I keep everything about mormonism but added...the phone book as part of my scripture, does that mean that because I'm "saved" and love others...that I'm right?

Also, I never said, nor do I believe that satan inspirired any of the Mormon texts. Of course I'm not sure that God inspirired them either...

Also, this seems to be a debate about if logic should be used or not....that's not my point on this thread,

( I'm disscussing that on "does faith need evidence")

I am using logic. If you don't want to base your beliefs on that...fine with me, but unless God tells me otherwise, I do want to base my belief on logic.

So If anyone would like to answer my questions about the Book of Abraham, please do.

If you couldn't care less what I say because I'm relying only on logic, fine. But why post and tell me I shouldn't depend on logic?

Feel free to "know" I'm wrong, I won't argue with you, but if you would like to disscuss FACTS not "feelings" on the Book of Abraham, I would appreciate your post.

and no hard feelings?

Thanks,

Josh

[Guest MrsS]

I have come to the conclusion that JoshuaK is expecting a lightning bolt as an answer from God. Or perhaps this thunderous voice booming from the heavens.

I have never actually heard Father answer me. Never heard words in my head or in my heart, or seen them appear in my minds eye either.

How do I know that Father has answered me? By the absence of confusion for one. Or by the overall feeling of comfort and ease when I think and ponder on my 'question'.

When my husband and I were 'courting' - I really was not sure if he was the right man for me. I certainly didn't want to get hooked up and find out he was wrong, wrong, wrong. I was so tired of the stupid 'dating' games that men insist on playing.

I took this all to Father. In short, by fasting and by conversing in plain and simple talk to Father, i.e.:" Father, you know my heart, you know my needs and you know my wants. You know that I am so lonely here on this Earth. You know that I desire a husband - a faithful and worthy priesthood holder, one who holds a valid temple recommend - I am not getting very far in my looking on my own. You know that I have been conversing with *******, he says he is a worthy priesthood holder, he says he has a valid temple recommend. He is funny, serious, knowledgable, Father you know what he is and isn't. Is he the husband You have picked for me?"

No sooner had I asked Father, then I sat quietly thinking of all the things ******* had said and written to me, and how I had felt when he had talked to me - that I was no longer confused, in a query, or uncertain. I felt washed, engulfed by a wonderful, warm and secure feeling. I knew that Father had just touched my heart and soul via the Holy Ghost, and that His answer was a resounding YES, ******* is the husband that I have chosen for you.

I also want to state that this did not happen in one sitting or a one time prayer. It took me a couple of trys to finally let go, to accept Fathers will. See that is the number one most important thing here. You have to be able to let it all go and willingly accept Fathers will. NOT YOUR OWN WILL or wants or desires. But Father's WILL.

At about the same time, in a different state, ******* was asking Father the same questions about me. The answer he received was the same - no words, just a very wonderful and comforting feeling of assurance.

Ray - oh how I know that glorious feeling of ASSURANCE that Father wraps around me!!!

JoshuaK - Father has been answering you - He always answers, we just do not always listen. Many, many times we don't want to hear the answer He gives us either - so we deny His answer and tell ourselves that He hasn't answered and won't answer.

1 Kings 19: 11 And he said, Go forth, and stand upon the mount before the LORD. And, behold, the LORD passed by, and a great and strong wind rent the mountains, and brake in pieces the rocks before the LORD; but the LORD was not in the wind: and after the wind an earthquake; but the LORD was not in the earthquake:

12 And after the earthquake a fire; but the LORD was not in the fire: and after the fire a still small voice.

Helaman 5: 30 And it came to pass when they heard this voice, and beheld that it was not a voice of thunder, neither was it a voice of a great tumultuous noise, but behold, it was a still voice of perfect mildness, as if it had been a whisper, and it did pierce even to the very soul—

emphasis added is mine

[JoshuaFKon]

I have come to the conclusion that JoshuaK is expecting a lightning bolt as an answer from God. Or perhaps this thunderous voice booming from the heavens.

To be fair, I said I would be happy with an email...

I respect your belief, If you are happy baseing your faith on "feelings" I won't argue with you.

But as I said in the post above:

I am using logic. If you don't want to base your beliefs on that...fine with me, but unless God tells me otherwise, I do want to base my belief on logic.

So If anyone would like to answer my questions about the Book of Abraham, please do.

If you couldn't care less what I say because I'm relying only on logic, fine. But why post and tell me I shouldn't depend on logic?

Feel free to "know" I'm wrong, I won't argue with you, but if you would like to disscuss FACTS not "feelings" on the Book of Abraham, I would appreciate your post.

If you want to disscuss the validity of my approach...I have started a thread "Does Faith Need Evidence"

Thanks,

Josh B)

[Guest MrsS]

Actually, Josh - reading any of your posts is like looking at a polish/norweigen/blond/what-ever joke:

over - - - ->

then on the other side of the paper

over- - - >

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Also, this seems to be a debate about if logic should be used or not....that's not my point on this thread,

Actually, I made it an issue because in post #169 you said you wanted to discuss why we believe what we do aside from our testimony. Well with testimony out of the way, what else is there but logic applied to so-called evidence or a lack thereof?

I didn't say you thought Satan inspired the BoM. Some people have said that, so I was addressing a few things at once.

No hard feelings at all, I just want to pinpoint what "rules of engagement" you'd like to use if testimony isn't allowed for now, and point out that logic without a witness from God is dead, as the body without the spirit is dead (I hope Jesus' half-brother doesn't mind me modifying his writings).

[JoshuaFKon]

Actually, I made it an issue because in post #169 you said you wanted to discuss why we believe what we do aside from our testimony. Well with testimony out of the way, what else is there but logic applied to so-called evidence or a lack thereof?

My bad,....I guess I wasn't clear. But I would like to reserve this thread for "logic" I do have "does faith need evidence" for all the other stuff...

No hard feelings at all, I just want to pinpoint what "rules of engagement" you'd like to use if testimony isn't allowed for now, and point out that logic without a witness from God is dead, as the body without the spirit is dead (I hope Jesus' half-brother doesn't mind me modifying his writings).

I guess my "rules of engagement" are..."feelings" don't count...(I'm not saying that they "don't count" for you, I just don't feel them)

Thanks

Josh B)

[Dr T]

Hello Joshua,

Would you feel comfortable stating that your belief in you system of faith is "not based on feelings"? I would quickly say that it does. As you have pointed out, "those feelings are different" from the LDS members on this board. THis difference is not in that they have feelings to support their beliefs and you don't, but you, for some reason, think that there is something else that you base your beliefs on. Religious discussions are often packed with a lot of emotionality. It sometimes, as you have seen above, brings up anger, frustration, love (for God), etc. In that sense, I'd hazard that you feel similar things. I'm enjoying this thread. Not because of the difficulty that some are having, the name calling, etc., but for the potential of reading two sides and seeing which belief system is best supported.

Thank you all,

Dr. T

[JoshuaFKon]

Dr. T,

I have "faith" in my belief system yes, and of course I have my own personal feelings...but my faith is not based on my "feelings" And even if it were, I would not offer up my feelings as "evidence" to someone who does not share my beliefs.

Josh B)

[Dr T]

Thanks Josh. What would you offer up?

[JoshuaFKon]

Thanks Josh. What would you offer up?

Well Dr. T,

If I was trying to prove Christianity on this thread....

not all, but some of my evidence breifly would be:

You should accept Christianity (I think) because:

(1) If you research it, the evidence strongly points towards there being a God.

a. The universe had a beginning.

b. The theory of evolution is very flawed.

d. There is no strong evidence against the existence of God.

c. The fact the Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies proves there is a "higher power"

(2) Of all the religions in the world Christianity has, (in my opinion) the best, (and the only) evidence for it.

a. The fact that Jesus fulfilled the messianic prophecies proves he was the "messiah" (the messianic prophecies are the prophecies the describe in detail the messiah that would come according to the Jewish Scripture) This means the Jewish faith was correct, and so at least one religion the believes Jesus was the messiah must be correct. (such as Christians, Catholics, Mormons, Etc..)

b. Also the Bible appears to be well backed up, and trustworthy.

Josh B)

[Ray]

Dr. T,

I have "faith" in my belief system yes, and of course I have my own personal feelings...but my faith is not based on my "feelings" And even if it were, I would not offer up my feelings as "evidence" to someone who does not share my beliefs.

Josh B)

I don't either, Josh... my testimony isn't based on my feelings.

My testimony is based on the feelings God has.

Do you know how to know how God feels about something???

Do you know of God's feelings for YOU???

You should accept Christianity *(I think) because...

...(2) Of all the religions in the world Christianity has, *(in my opinion)...

Josh B) *(text highlighted in bold by Ray)

Should any of us care what YOU think???

Should any of you care what I think???

I sometimes am curious, but I don't really care what anyone thinks but God.

[JoshuaFKon]

I don't either, Josh... my testimony isn't based on my feelings.

My testimony is based on the feelings God has.

Correct me if I'm wrong Ray, but your testimony is based on your "feelings" about God's "Feelings"

So....second hand feelings......lol

Of course I also said:

guess my "rules of engagement" are..."feelings" don't count...

That includes God's feelings...unless written down of course.

Josh B)

[prisonchaplain]

Josh, that's just a stupid question. I'm not saying you're stupid, but that question is, namely: If I don't feel God tell me the BoM is true, will you tell me why you think it is true, based on logic, without your "knowing?"

The main reason most LDS believe in the BoM is because we believe God told us it's His word. If we can't use our testimony as a reason for belief, we are left with, what...logic?

This is a truly interesting spiritual seeking point. It's one thing to 'know there is a God.' It's another to know who that God is. And then, what written document accurately represents his words to us?

Most Catholics have never thought to question the Bible, the Tradition and teachings of the Church--including what we call the deutercanonicals. Most Protestants, likewise, have never really grappled with WHY we believe the Bible is the only written document, and that the 'Catholic books' don't belong.

So, why should Mormons grapple with whether or not the BoM and the other Standard Works belong or not? A few thoughtful ones might, but not most--just like most Christians do not do the detail-oriented studies required to become proficient in the formation of canon.

The answer, of course, is that LDS consider themselves to be Christians. So, while they don't care what unrestored Christians think, they kinda do care. After all, we all want to be perceived as reasonable.

So, here's a question that might be easier to answer: How does your belief in the Standard Works help you to live a life that is more pleasing to God, and also more fulfilling? What tools has the Triple given you, that the Bible alone did not? Also, what are some questions that you've find the Bible unable to answer, that these other works did answer?

[Ray]

Correct me if I'm wrong Ray, but your testimony is based on your "feelings" about God's "Feelings"

So....second hand feelings......lol

No thank you. I do not really want to correct you. But that doesn't mean that what I'm now saying means what you are saying is true.

Of course I also said:

...guess my "rules of engagement" are..."feelings" don't count...

That includes God's feelings...unless written down of course.

Josh B)

Heh, says YOU.

[JoshuaFKon]

Ray, Ray, Ray......

No thank you. I do not really want to correct you. But that doesn't mean that what I'm now saying means what you are saying is true.

What does that even mean?

Heh, says YOU.

lol....ok says me

Oh....wait....I think my prayers have been answered! oh, yes....I'm feeling something....ok...got it!

I'm feeling that God feels I shouldn't listen to you anymore untill you become more resonable....

Josh B)