I Have 6 Questions....

[JoshuaFKon]

Hello JoshuaK. You said in a previous post that you found the book of Abraham interesting. Do you mind if I ask what it was about it that you were interested in? Also, you have presented this literature that provides evidence against the book of Abraham and asked us what we think about it, but I would like to know what you think about it.

Thanks.

As It stands I do not believe it. I think that there is strong evidence against it. However, I could be wrong and that's why I'm asking everyone's thoughts on it.

Thanks

Josh

[Jason]

Hello Jason. Would you be able to tell me where the Bible talks about this "remnant"?

Thanks.

Just a quick glance at my OT....Isaiah 1:9, Ezekiel 14:22-23. Those were the first quotes I found. I seem to recall the remnant being spoken of many times in Ezekiel, Jeremiah and Isaiah. Do a quick topical guide search and you'll see more.

[LionHeart]

As It stands I do not believe it. I think that there is strong evidence against it. However, I could be wrong and that's why I'm asking everyone's thoughts on it.

Thanks

Josh

This literature against the Book of Abraham is quite strong, however, before I would consider any truthfulness in it, I would need to know the credibility of the author thereof. Judging by some of the wording in the article, it seems to me that the author of it is very anti-Mormon. And who did he get his literature from; was it a credible source; or was it from a rogue archaeologist who merely developed his own opinions? (you know, the type of thing you see on television all the time about how a certain group of scientists proved something and yet that is the last time you hear of it)

As far as my personal beliefs of the Book of Abraham: that book is a source of some deep doctrine when understood; alot of which I understand and probably more of which I am still learning to understand. And the strange thing about it is the parts that I do understand make perfect sense. Don't ask me to try to explain it because I don't think I could. It requires alot of learning other principles before it begins to make sense. This is one of the reasons I continue to believe that it's true; in spite of this alledged evidence against it.

But if you would really like some good reading, read a little booklet called "The Lectures On Faith." That book is also a source of some deep doctrine when understood.

[Princess3dward]

Desiré,

Actually I would say the the validity of the Book of Abraham, and thus any theories or critizism of the Book of Abraham are "crutial" to you.

Because, as the late Apostle Bruce R. McConkie once said, the Book of Abraham:

“…contains priceless information about the gospel, pre-existence, the nature of Deity, the creation, and priesthood – information which is not otherwise available in any other revelation now extant."

So basically you're basing much of your doctrine, not on the Book of Mormon, but on the Book of Abraham.

I would suggest you reseach it. Don't just take my word on it, or anyone else's. Read "Abraham in Egypt" by Nibley and "By his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles Larson.

That goes for everyone.

Thanks,

Josh

prisonchaplain,

Thanks for the link to the Action Institute, I'll have to look into it...(I've never turned down free food yet)

CATO is actually Libertarian. ACLJ rocks!

Well, actually I am a Repubitarian, (the only one so far) 75% Libertarian and 25% Republican, but ACLJ does rock dosen't it?

Thanks again :)

Josh B)

I know the book of Abraham, and since I feel attacked, I will answer your question about the diagram of the sacrafice... either Joseph Smith completed it with revelation, or whoever found that got it wrong, OR they are making it up because they wantred to "challenge" our faith. I have read it and prayed about it. There is nothing wrong with it. It is truth... that just means that whatever they have.. isn't.

<div class='quotemain'>

No. It happened to a friend of mine. Sorry, but I didn't lie.

That's fine, but would you be so kind as to point out to me which Bible passage prophecies of a restoration? Im afraid Im not aware of that one.

On the other hand, there is a mention or two about a "remnant" that would be god's faithful. Perhaps your friend confused the two?

Of course, Im not trying to dissuade you from your beliefs, Im just trying to be practical and consistent.

:)

Don't worry.

I went though ALOT of crap earlier about my church, and I confermed all of that in my heart.

I wont be dissuaded.

You wanted a scripture?

I think I had two, but here is the one I found just now (I am not very good pulling them up very fast... I am faster with the BoM).

Acts 3:19-29.. mostly the last verse, but the first two for better understanding!

As It stands I do not believe it. I think that there is strong evidence against it. However, I could be wrong This literature against the Book of Abraham is quite strong, however, before I would consider any truthfulness in it, I would need to know the credibility of the author thereof. Judging by some of the wording in the article, it seems to me that the author of it is very anti-Mormon. And who did he get his literature from; was it a credible source; or was it from a rogue archaeologist who merely developed his own opinions? (you know, the type of thing you see on television all the time about how a certain group of scientists proved something and yet that is the last time you hear of it)

As far as my personal beliefs of the Book of Abraham: that book is a source of some deep doctrine when understood; alot of which I understand and probably more of which I am still learning to understand. And the strange thing about it is the parts that I do understand make perfect sense. Don't ask me to try to explain it because I don't think I could. It requires alot of learning other principles before it begins to make sense. This is one of the reasons I continue to believe that it's true; in spite of this alledged evidence against it.

But if you would really like some good reading, read a little booklet called "The Lectures On Faith." That book is also a source of some deep doctrine when understood.

The Pearl of Great Price was the first book I read, and I read it with my dad with a manual, so I was blessed to get a testimony of that first!

[JoshuaFKon]

I know the book of Abraham, and since I feel attacked, I will answer your question about the diagram of the sacrafice... either Joseph Smith completed it with revelation, or whoever found that got it wrong, OR they are making it up because they wantred to "challenge" our faith. I have read it and prayed about it. There is nothing wrong with it. It is truth... that just means that whatever they have.. isn't.

Desiré,

I am sorry you feel "attacked" by my questions. It is not my intention to "attack" anyone.

I will now address your answers.

(1) Joseph Smith Completed it with revelation.

Well, first of all this is not backed up by anything, it is pretty clear that he claimed to be actually "translating" the text.

This is backed up by his own diary entries, History of the Chruch, etc..

[July, 1835] - The remainder of this month I was I was continually engaged in translating an alphabet to the Book of Abraham, and arranging a grammar of the Egyptian language as practiced by the ancients. (History of the Church. Vol 2, p.238)

Of course even if He did, complete the facimile No. 1 with "revelation" his interpretation is clearly wrong. As you can see.

(2) Whoever found it got it wrong.

I'm not sure I understand this, do you mean every single Egyptologist in the world is wrong? or that the wrong scrolls were discovered?

(3) Or they are "making it up" because they want to challenge your faith

You mean to say that every Egyptologist is deliberatly lying mearly because they don't like Mormons?

I think if that was the case that Mormon Egyptologists (such as Mormon elder Dee Jay Nelson) would point it out, don't you think?

Thank you

Josh

[Princess3dward]

(1) Joseph Smith Completed it with revelation.

Well, first of all this is not backed up by anything, it is pretty clear that he claimed to be actually "translating" the text.

No?

I beg to differ.

It is backed up by God,

whom you still havn't asked.

Of course even if He did, complete the facimile No. 1 with "revelation" his interpretation is clearly wrong. As you can see.

I can see it was wrong?

Did I not say the OPPISITE!

That I KNOW it is right?

(2) Whoever found it got it wrong.

I'm not sure I understand this, do you mean every single Egyptologist in the world is wrong? or that the wrong scrolls were discovered?

Pick and choose.

They never asked who would actually know...

like... hmm... who would know?

GOD!

(3) Or they are "making it up" because they want to challenge your faith

You mean to say that every Egyptologist is deliberatly lying mearly because they don't like Mormons?

I think if that was the case that Mormon Egyptologists (such as Mormon elder Dee Jay Nelson) would point it out, don't you think?

Why should he debate?

And he can't if they don't know what they are talking about!

And if EVERY SINGLE ONE IN THE WORLD believes that,

then yes, Joseph used revelation! Question answered by trouble shooting!

Wasn't that easy?

Now... all that stands is was he a true prophet?

READ JS HISTORY AND ASK GOD!

Why do you refuse to ask God?

Why must you look for other reasons, and not get the whole picture?

[JoshuaFKon]

Desiré

And if EVERY SINGLE ONE IN THE WORLD believes that, And if EVERY SINGLE ONE IN THE WORLD believes that,

then yes, Joseph used revelation! Question answered by trouble shooting!

Wasn't that easy?

Now... all that stands is was he a true prophet?

READ JS HISTORY AND ASK GOD

don't you think that's rather cicrular logic,

You "know" its true, because He's a true prophet, yet if he was wrong, how do you "know" he was a true prophet?

Josh

[Ray]

Ray: ...Anyway, now that you've shown that you really want to investigate Abraham, or more specifically, the Book of Abraham, I will recommend that you pick up a good book by Hugh Nibley, an LDS scholar who died a little while ago, and see what he says about that. The book is called "Abraham in Egypt"

Josh: ... Thanks for the book title, I'll be sure to read it when I come back from vacation, Although I have not read "Abraham in Egypt" I am familiar with his (Dr. Hugh Nibley) work, and several of his theories on the Book of Abraham, such and the "Hidden Meaning Theory" "The Scribes Did It Theory" and the "Missing Black and Red Scroll" Theory. All of which I find to be lacking, and grasping at straws.

In response to your idea of finding Hugh Nibley’s knowledge to be LACKING:

I already told you he wasn’t God, so of course he didn’t have ALL good knowledge, but he did have a lot of good knowledge to share, and I know that was given by God… the source of all good knowledge in the world whether the world comes to know that or not.

In response to your idea that Hugh Nibley was GRASPING AT STRAWS:

Should I phrase what you’re doing like that??? Hugh Nibley did have some good knowledge to share, although he did not know EVERYTHING, and due to his lack he made comments to show he lacked some good knowledge from God… and that’s what you do when you share what you think when you don’t get your knowledge from God.

Sheesh. Cut the guy a little more slack. He died an old man and lived a full life while gaining the knowledge he had, and I know that he had gained some good knowledge from God. And I know 'cause God tells me it’s good.

But I'll be sure to read the book. If I may suggest a book, I believe you should read "by his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles M. Larson.

Heh, I thought you weren’t here to teach. I thought you wanted knowledge from us.

I know more about us and our beliefs than you do, and we’re gaining our knowledge from God.

Do you think you can add to all that?!?

[JoshuaFKon]

Lion Heart,

Hello JoshuaK. You said in a previous post that you found the book of Abraham interesting. Do you mind if I ask what it was about it that you were interested in?

I found it interesting because its the source of most of the differences (doctrinally) between Mormonism and Christianity (I know you consider yourselves Christians, so I feel bad calling myself a "Christian" and you a "Mormon" what words do you use to differentiate?)

This literature against the Book of Abraham is quite strong, however, before I would consider any truthfulness in it, I would need to know the credibility of the author thereof. Judging by some of the wording in the article, it seems to me that the author of it is very anti-Mormon. And who did he get his literature from; was it a credible source; or was it from a rogue archaeologist who merely developed his own opinions?

Although the author is not a mormon, I do not find him to be an “anti-mormon” and it is not just him, every Egyptologist who has examined the papyrus scrolls agree with him.

Also his sources all seem to be credible, and his book is well referenced, I would be happy to provide you any of his sources.

Hope that helps,

Josh

[JoshuaFKon]

Ray

In response to your idea that Hugh Nibley was GRASPING AT STRAWS:

Should I phrase what you’re doing like that??? Hugh Nibley did have some good knowledge to share, although he did not know EVERYTHING, and due to his lack he made comments to show he lacked some good knowledge from God… and that’s what you do when you share what you think when you don’t get your knowledge from God.

If you feel I'm graping at straws that is your opinion, I have not read his book that you suggested (yet) His theories that I have read I feel are lacking, prehaps I have not read them all yet.

Sheesh. Cut the guy a little more slack. He died an old man and lived a full life while gaining the knowledge he had, and I know that he had gained some good knowledge from God. And I know 'cause God tells me it’s good.

I admire Dr Nibley, I like that he at least tried to research what he believed, I after I read his book, I might still not agree with him, but I respect him.

But I'll be sure to read the book. If I may suggest a book, I believe you should read "by his own hand upon papyrus" by Charles M. Larson.

Heh, I thought you weren’t here to teach. I thought you wanted knowledge from us.

I'm not here to teach, someone reccomened me a book, I thanked them, promised to read it, and reccomended a book myself.

I know more about us and our beliefs than you do, and we’re gaining our knowledge from God.

Do you think you can add to all that?!?

It is because you know more about your beliefs that I am disscussiing them with you

Please forgive me if I have offended.

thanks

Josh

[Ray]

Please forgive me if I have offended.

Josh

Heh, you can't do anything I won't forgive you for, Joshua, and I respect you for trying to learn what is true. But to know what is true you must ask God to help you, otherwise you'll only hear what others tell you. :)

[Jason]

Don't worry.

I went though ALOT of crap earlier about my church, and I confermed all of that in my heart.

I wont be dissuaded.

You wanted a scripture?

I think I had two, but here is the one I found just now (I am not very good pulling them up very fast... I am faster with the BoM).

Acts 3:19-29.. mostly the last verse, but the first two for better understanding!

Hey thanks. I was looking for an Old Testament passage, but NT works too.

Im very sorry you have to suffer for being a Mormon. I remember my missionary days, and getting spitted on because we were LDS, and that just wasn't cool.

You won't get spit on around here, I promise. :)

[Princess3dward]

Desiré

And if EVERY SINGLE ONE IN THE WORLD believes that, And if EVERY SINGLE ONE IN THE WORLD believes that,

then yes, Joseph used revelation! Question answered by trouble shooting!

Wasn't that easy?

Now... all that stands is was he a true prophet?

READ JS HISTORY AND ASK GOD

don't you think that's rather cicrular logic,

You "know" its true, because He's a true prophet, yet if he was wrong, how do you "know" he was a true prophet?

Josh

That would be scary!

Good thing I know he is a true prophet!

PHEW!

[Dr T]

quick note:

In the fallacy of circular reasoning, which is often called begging the question, you assume to be true what you are supposed to be proving. But that's also true for all valid deductions, where the conclusion (what you are trying to prove) is derived from the premises or assumptions. This difference is that, in circular reasoning, the conclusion is contained in a single premise or assumption, while in a deductive argument the conclusion is derived from both premises. Consider the following exchanges:

Deductive Reasoning (Valid)

Sports Fan #1: What makes you say Australian Rules Football is the most exciting sport in the world?

Sports Fan #2: Because it is the fastest and highest scoring form of football, and whatever is the fastest and highest scoring form of football must be the most exciting sport in the world.

Circular Reasoning (Fallacious)

Sports Fan #1: What makes you say Australian Rules Football is the most exciting sport in the world?

Sports Fan #2: Because it is.

In both examples, the conclusion has been assumed in the premises. But the first argument follows a valid pattern: If P (fastest and highest scoring), then Q (most exciting). Aussie Rules Football is P (fastest and highest scoring), therefore Aussie Rules Football is Q (most exciting). But in the second example, the one for circular reasoning, the conclusion has been assumed entirely (or almost entirely) in a single premise. As a result, the conclusion of a circular argument can be seen as just a restatement of its only premise. It's like saying, "A is B, therefore A is B."

Often, however, circular reasoning is more subtle than this: it depends on an assumption not stated but assumed. Consider the famous argument of the French philosopher, René Descartes: "I think, therefore I am." Descartes has begged the question here, because when he said "I think," he'd already implied "I am" (or how else could he think?). Yet his fallacy continues to persuade people, over three hundred years later.

(Maybe it would have been better for Decarte to have reasoned, "I think therefore thinking exists.")?

Just trying to clarify,

Dr. T

[JoshuaFKon]

That would be scary!

Good thing I know he is a true prophet!

PHEW!

Thanks....it's all so clear to me now......

Maybe if you told me why you "know" he is a true prophet?

Thanks,

God bless,

Josh

[rosie321]

Sorry Dr T that circular quote was too much thinking for me.

Desiree I think everyone is just trying to tell you that its not good enough what you think when trying to defend your position. Right now no one believes what you say because they believe something different. So who is right. You have to offer evidence to support unless you are God and we never knew it :) Do you see the difference?

EX.

You believe Gordon Hinckley is a prophet because:

God says he reveals nothing except through his prophets. Maybe point out some verses that state that.

What organizations have prophets today?

This is the place that I found one.

See the difference?

Blessings

Rosie

[Dr T]

Rosie,

I like you. I'm glad there you've joined us here at LDS Talk. :)

[Ray]

That would be scary!

Good thing I know he is a true prophet!

PHEW!

Thanks....it's all so clear to me now......

Maybe if you told me why you "know" he is a true prophet?

Thanks,

God bless,

Josh

Didn't she say that she had gained that knowledge from God?

Maybe you should ask God how He knows.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Joshua, Desiree knows what she knows because God told her. But you can't accept personal revelation as a reason...you need a time-stamped email from God where He told her the truth, or a traceable phone call, or a physical letter with a return address...doesn't work that way. Of course you don't have to believe her when she says God told her Joseph Smith is a prophet, but faith isn't like Egypt, full of discrete, physical evidence and artifacts. It is, as Paul says, the substance of things hoped for.

You want us LDS to give you "evidence" that justifies our belief, so you can dismiss the evidence as faulty or lacking. We believe it because we believe God told us its true. That's ultimately what it comes down to, no more and no less.

[rosie321]

Rosie,

I like you. I'm glad there you've joined us here at LDS Talk

Gee thanks Dr T. now I have such a swelled head I'll never be able be able to fit through the narrow path to the celestial kingdom!

Desiree to clarify my last post there is nothing wrong with personal revelation as ApostleKnight said and to express what you feel. There are situations where that does not cut it. In the case of Josh I don't know if he had lines of evidence he'd still understand. Only Heavenly Father knows the answer to that. But it would be helpful for you to gather some information to back up your claims to better give a reason for the hope within you. It will make you stronger.

Blessings

[JoshuaFKon]

You want us LDS to give you "evidence" that justifies our belief, so you can dismiss the evidence as faulty or lacking. We believe it because we believe God told us its true. That's ultimately what it comes down to, no more and no less.

Yes, I want "evidence" that justifies your belief, but not so I "can dismiss the evidence as faulty of lacking"

Because I want to know the truth.

Thanks

Josh

P.S. I won't mind an email from God if you could swing it though :)

[Ray]

You want us LDS to give you "evidence" that justifies our belief, so you can dismiss the evidence as faulty or lacking. We believe it because we believe God told us its true. That's ultimately what it comes down to, no more and no less.

Yes, I want "evidence" that justifies your belief, but not so I "can dismiss the evidence as faulty of lacking"

Because I want to know the truth.

I got my knowledge from God, and I know that His knowledge is true, so if you want to know what God knows is true, then ask God to tell you the truth.

He really told me, and He can really tell you. Or will you simply believe that He told me???

P.S. I won't mind an email from God if you could swing it though :)

Heh, He has something more powerful than email, buddy boy. And He will personally send it to you. But you must first show you want to know Him, before He will tell you what's true. :)

[JoshuaFKon]

I got my knowledge from God, and I know that His knowledge is true, so if you want to know what God knows is true, then ask God to tell you the truth.

Ray,

I asked God several times, I heard nothing, I felt nothing.

Josh

P.S. If God ever does comeout with an email newsletter or something, put me on the list

[Dr T]

That sure would be a long list. Does He get inundated with prayers and they get clogged up like junk e-mail?

Hmmmm.

[Ray]

I got my knowledge from God, and I know that His knowledge is true, so if you want to know what God knows is true, then ask God to tell you the truth.

Ray,

I asked God several times, I heard nothing, I felt nothing.

Josh

And at the age of 18 you're ready to stop asking???

How much do you REALLY want to know Him???