MikeSpady Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 I teach a Walking for Fitness class at the high school level. Before our first off-campus walk, I instructed my students to observe all traffic law, ie. use crosswalks and no jaywalking. Not two minutes after I gave these instructions, my entire class witnessed two Mormon missionaries jaywalk. I wanted to approach them but they were going in the opposite direction. God presented me an opportunity one hour later as they reappeared and were walking in my direction. I told them they were not a good testimony to their Church as my students witnessed them jaywalking. I then stated that I thought obedience was necessary to be considered worthy enough to be saved. 2 Nephi 25:23 "that it is by graced we are saved, after all we can do." I asked them if they thought using a crosswalk would be included in the concept of "all we can do". Seems to me it would as compared to what Christ did for us, endure an agonizing death on the cross. They were speechless and made no comment. Any thoughts?
beefche Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 Wait...are you comparing jaywalking to Christ's suffering?
skippy740 Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 Uh... only Christ was perfect. "Every member a mission president" comes to mind.
MikeSpady Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Posted October 9, 2011 No, I am saying compared to what Jesus did for us by dying on the cross, you would think the least we can do is to use crosswalks. Again, Nephi says we are saved after doing all we can do, only then God's grace is sufficient. We have to give our best effort first.
beefche Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 Oh, and no one is worthy to be saved. We are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ. Try again, Mike.
dahlia Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 They were speechless and made no comment. Any thoughts?I'm speechless as well. You said all this to two adults about jaywalking? Wow. There are no other important things going on in your life, or in the world, that this is what you focus on?Of course we want people to follow the traffic rules, but please. Your going up to two strangers and berating them in this way was out of line.
beefche Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 So, let me see if I understand correctly. Are you saying that we don't have to do anything to be saved?
skippy740 Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 Mike only gave them the opportunity to practice Ether 12:27 in regards to traffic laws:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their aweakness. I bgive unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my cgrace is sufficient for all men that dhumble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make eweak things become strong unto them. However, since Mike is talking about Nephi 25:23, let's read the 1st part of that verse: 23 For we labor diligently to write, to apersuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by bgrace that we are saved, after all we can cdo. Belief and reconcilation comes FIRST before being saved by grace after all we can do.
MikeSpady Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Posted October 9, 2011 No need to be emotionally upset. I thought I was helping them by pointing out their failure to obey the simplest of laws. After all they were publicly representing the LDS church.
beefche Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 Haha! Let's see. Do you go up to all people who jaywalk and point out their disobedience? Or just Mormons?
MikeSpady Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Posted October 9, 2011 No, you did by saving we are saved by grace.
beefche Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 Ok, so what's your issue? Perhaps you don't understand the verse in the BoM? It's not saying we have to be perfect before we are saved. It's saying that ultimately it's the grace of Christ that saves us--no matter what or how much we do, we are saved by Jesus.
beefche Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 BTW, you are not the only person to bring this up. Here is a link to many discussions on this topic on this site:LDS Social Network Forums - Search Results
MikeSpady Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Posted October 9, 2011 so why did Nephi include the phrase"after all we can do"?
beefche Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 I'm confused. What is your issue? Did you not read what Skippy and I wrote to explain it? I infer from your posts that you disagree with the LDS view of grace and works. That's fine. We have lots of members of this site who disagree with us. But, at least acknowledge what you disagree with. If you are confused by the verse or doctrine, then ask a question to be answered.
Snow Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 I teach a Walking for Fitness class at the high school level. Before our first off-campus walk, I instructed my students to observe all traffic law, ie. use crosswalks and no jaywalking. Not two minutes after I gave these instructions, my entire class witnessed two Mormon missionaries jaywalk. I wanted to approach them but they were going in the opposite direction. God presented me an opportunity one hour later as they reappeared and were walking in my direction.You seriously want us to believe that God supernatural intervened by manipulating the timing and physical location of you and the missionaries just so you could chastise them.Oh brother!I told them they were not a good testimony to their Church as my students witnessed them jaywalking. I then stated that I thought obedience was necessary to be considered worthy enough to be saved. 2 Nephi 25:23 "that it is by graced we are saved, after all we can do." I asked them if they thought using a crosswalk would be included in the concept of "all we can do". Seems to me it would as compared to what Christ did for us, endure an agonizing death on the cross.How's that whole busy-body, self-righteousness thing working out for you? They were speechless and made no comment. Any thoughts?Yeah - my thought is that they weren't speechless; they just had the courtesy to not laugh outloud at you.
MikeSpady Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Posted October 9, 2011 There are only 3 possibilities: 1. We are saved by grace 2. We are saved by our works 3. We are saved by a combination of grace and our works. Which one is the way of salvation? Nephi is saying it is a combination, and grace is dependent on "doing all we can do" All I am saying is that you would think using a crosswalk would be included in the concept of "doing all we can do".
Snow Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 There are only 3 possibilities:1. We are saved by grace2. We are saved by our works3. We are saved by a combination of grace and our works.Which one is the way of salvation? Nephi is saying it is a combination, and grace is dependent on "doing all we can do" All I am saying is that you would think using a crosswalk would be included in the concept of "doing all we can do".Uh, no. What you are saying is that YOU would think that using a crosswalk would be included in the concept of "doing all we can do".I can't think of any reason that your opinion is relevant to the reality of it all. Can you?
MikeSpady Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Posted October 9, 2011 Snow, Would you include using crosswalks in the category of doing all you can do?
beefche Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 So, you are using jaywalking as the litmus test to salvation?
MikeSpady Posted October 9, 2011 Author Report Posted October 9, 2011 No, but LDS doctrine appears to. You guys refuse to answer a simple question.
sister_in_faith Posted October 9, 2011 Report Posted October 9, 2011 I think it is unfortunate that the missionaries jaywalked... but I think that bringing Christ's suffering into this discussion is a bit over the top.
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