I am that i am

[mikbone]

I love this line. I was wondering if someone like volgadon could give us a true interpretation of the declaration. I was under the impression that the hebrew text was written in the past present and future tense so it really should read something like: I WAS, I AM, I WILL BE.

Today I was making a comparison between Moses and the Brother of Jared. And I was pretty impressed by the similarities.

Both Moses and Mahonri were chosen as reluctant leaders of their people.

Both Moses and Mahonri had to climb a mountain to see the Lord.

Both Prophets saw the hand of the Lord while He touched stones in their presence.

Both Prophets were given stones to take back with them as evidence of their divine manifestation. They were both given Urim and Thummin. Mahonri received the 16 stones to illuminate and guide the barges whereas Moses received the 10 commandments to guide Israel.

I also believe that both Prophets had their calling and election made sure.

If you can come up with any other comparisons let me know.

There is evidence easily missed within Ether that explains how in depth the manifestation was that the Brother of Jared obtained. And now that I compare the statement “I AM THAT I AM” that Moses received with Mahonri's revelation. I am impressed that Moses had a much more detailed experience than what we have detailed in Genesis.

Ether 3:15 And never have I showed myself unto man whom I have created, for never has man believed in me as thou hast.

The following is my interpretation of why the Brother of Jared's visitation as found in Ether 3 was so radically different than any prior revelation that man had received from God...

Ether 2:22-23 I [Mahonri] have prepared the vessels for my people, and behold there is no light in them. Behold, O Lord, wilt thou suffer that we shall cross this great water in darkness? And the Lord said unto the brother of Jared: What will ye that I should do that ye may have light in your vessels?

Isn't it wonderful that the Lord does not solve our problems for us? Here Jehovah returned the responsibility of conceiving the means to illuminate the ships back upon Mahonri. The brother of Jared was inspired to molten sixteen stones, with the idea that Jehovah could enhance them such that they would produce light. This procedure of collecting the raw materials, producing a fire hot enough to melt stone, and pouring the molten material into pre-fashioned molds most definitely took much skill, time, and effort. I imagine that during this process Mahonri pondered on how he would ask the Lord to endow the stones.

Ether 3:4 And I know, O Lord, that thou hast all power, and can do whatsoever thou wilt for the benefit of man; therefore touch these stones, O Lord, with thy finger, and prepare them that they may shine forth in darkness; and they shall shine forth unto us in the vessels which we have prepared, that we may have light while we shall cross the sea.

Mahonri has just hiked up mount Shelem (interpreted as exceedingly high) hand carrying the carefully crafted stones. I assume that when he arrived at the summit, Mahonri took some time to clean up physically, rest his body, meditate, and to arrange everything just so. Finally, I picture him stepping back a few feet from the stones in satisfaction, and kneel down in preparation to invoke our Lord in prayer. In his supplication to the Lord, Mahonri not only asked for the stones to shine, he asked that the Lord touch the stones. One must question Mahonri's state of mind, and motivation behind this request. Did he ask the Lord to touch the stones only as an offhand remark, or did he actually desire that the Lord touch the stones? Did he think, believe, or actually have the faith that he could see the Lord's finger? Did Mahonri think that the Lord had a finger and thus a body? Did he want to see the Lord's finger?

Ether 3:6 And it came to pass that when the brother of Jared had said these words, behold, the Lord stretched forth his hand and touched the stones one by one with his finger. And the veil was taken from off the eyes of the brother of Jared, and he saw the finger of the Lord; and it was as the finger of a man, like unto flesh and blood; and the brother of Jared fell down before the Lord, for he was struck with fear.

Mahonri's prayers are answered! He intently watched in awe as the stones illuminated in succession. Then he realized that he was also witnessing the finger of God and he began to study it. He saw the digit of our Savior and noticed what it was composed of: bones, muscles, ligaments, skin, hair, and nail. This procedure of touching the sixteen stones probably transpired within fifteen to thirty seconds giving Mahonri sufficient time to study what he was observing. Then suddenly during this manifestation Mahonri became so overcome with fear that he lost the ability to control his muscles, and fell prostrate before the Lord. But why??? Was he afraid because he did not think that the Lord would do what he asked (see Ether 12:20)? Or was Mahonri afraid because he saw something that he did not anticipate?

Ether 3:7 And the Lord saw that the brother of Jared had fallen to the earth; and the Lord said unto him: Arise, why hast thou fallen?

Jehovah must have perceived the thoughts of Mahonri. Yet he asked a pointed question. I believe to assist Mahonri in coming to a radical albeit incorrect conclusion.

Ether 3:8 And he saith unto the Lord: I saw the finger of the Lord, and I feared lest he should smite me; for I knew not that the Lord had flesh and blood.

Mahonri said that he was afraid that the Lord would smite him. So, the obvious question arises. Why did Mahonri think that the Lord would smite him??? Mahonri had obeyed the Lord's instructions. He invoked the Lord in sincere prayer, and his prayer was answered exactly as he had worded it. Did Mahonri fear because he thought he was audaciously seeing something that he was not worthy to see? Possibly, but I think not. Remember, Mahonri had asked specifically that the Lord touch the stones. He had the faith necessary to see the Lord, and had previously received at least two direct revelations from the Lord. In the previous chapter Mahonri had conversed with the Lord for the space of three hours! Was Mahonri afraid because he did not know that the Lord had the form of a body? I think not, he knew that Jehovah was a man and not some amorphous presence. Mahonri had access to the prophet's testimonies via scripture, thus he knew that man was created in the image of God. The Brother of Jared also knew that many prophets had seen God face to face.

Adam & Eve, Genesis 1:26-27

The first eight patriarch, all of whom were high priests, D&C 107:53-55

Noah, Genesis 6:9

The answer to the question as to why Mahonri thought that the Lord would smite him is very simply stated within the same verse in which the question arises, but many scriptural scholars have seemed to gloss over this essential concept. Mahonri states that he did not know that the Lord had a body of flesh and blood. Mahonri did not say flesh and bones, he used the word blood, and blood declares mortality. Thus Mahonri was saying, "I did not know you were mortal!" So, why did Mahonri think that his physical well-being was in jeopardy just by assuming that Jehovah was mortal? I believe that while Mahonri looked at Jehovah, he earnestly thought that he saw a body of flesh and blood. His thoughts were racing, for Mahonri had been previously taught that Jehovah was immortal and could not die. He then began to consider the implications of Jehovah's mortality, and concluded that if Jehovah is mortal, he must be subject to injury and possibly even death! Mahonri assumed that since this knowledge had never before been released, the Lord had reason to conceal that he was composed of the same weak material as the rest of mankind. I think that Mahonri thought that Jehovah would smite him - to keep him from revealing to humanity that God was in reality a frail mortal.

Ether 3:9 And the Lord said unto him: Because of thy faith thou hast seen that I shall take upon me flesh and blood; and never has man come before me with such exceeding faith as thou hast; for were it not so ye could not have seen my finger. Sawest thou more than this?

Jehovah alleviates Mahonri's fears, and praises his faith. At this point our Savior does not correct Mahonri's false assumption. Jehovah knew Mahonri Moriancumer's thoughts and used them to impress a significant truth upon his soul. Jehovah explained that in time he would become mortal (thus as Mahonri had concluded, Jehovah would be subject to injury and indeed even death). I assume that this information struck Mahonri heavily. Jehovah then told Mahonri that no man had previously come to him with such great faith, and that he was able to see the finger because Mahonri strongly desired and truly believed that he would see the finger. Then our Lord asked a leading question and Mahonri was more than happy to answer the question and issue the follow-up request.

Ether 3:10-12 And he answered: Nay; Lord, show thyself unto me. And the Lord said unto him: Believest thou the words which I shall speak? And he answered: Yea, Lord, I know that thou speakest the truth, for thou art a God of truth, and canst not lie.

Mahonri here requests to see the Lord in his entirety. Mahonri bears his testimony of God to God.

Ether 3:13 And when he had said these words, behold, the Lord showed himself unto him, and said: Because thou knowest these things ye are redeemed from the fall; therefore ye are brought back into my presence; therefore I show myself unto you.

The Lord here grants Mahonri Moriancumer's calling and election. Jehovah told Mahonri that because he knew these things, he was redeemed from the fall. Mahonri now understood that Jehovah, his God and the God of his ancestors, was to become a mortal man capable of death for some very important reason. Jehovah then thoroughly showed himself to Mahonri. What Jehovah was showing Mahonri was not tangible. The physical state of Jehovah was trivial at this point. What Mahonri was shown was so much more significant. When a person receives his calling and election he is brought back into the Lord's presence; or as revealed to Joseph Smith, the veil is rent (D&C 67:10). This veil is the veil of forgetfulness that we each pass through as we are born as an infant to our mortal parents. Thus Mahonri was re-endowed with his pre-existent memories and for the first time he recognized the Lord. He had full knowledge and recollection that our God Jehovah was the pre-existent soul who had said, “Here am I, send me. Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever.” (Abraham 3:27, Moses 4:2). Mahonri recognized the Lord to be an old friend, yea, even his elder brother. At this point the celestial manifestation ceased to be a test and passed into a family reunion type event. How Mahonri’s heart must have jumped with joy to recognize the true identity of our Lord.

Ether 3:14 Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.

Jehovah concludes the teaching point and reveals to Mahonri that He will become mortal and that during his future mortal life He (God) will be known as Jesus Christ and at that time will be sacrificed for the sins of the world. The Brother of Jared must have performed animal sacrifice during his life thus he must have made the connection that animal sacrifice was symbolic for the event that would eventually occur to Jesus Christ. Mahonri was for the first time learning about the true Gospel. That through the horrible Atonement mankind would have the potential to overcome death and inherit eternal life. Yea, even become a son of God. Jehovah had just fully revealed himself unto the Brother of Jared. He was essentially saying. This is WHO I WAS, WHO I AM, and WHO I WILL BE! What an awesome experience... I AM THAT I AM!

Ether 3:16 Behold, this body, which ye now behold, is the body of my spirit; and man have I created after the body of my spirit; and even as I appear unto thee to be in the spirit will I appear unto my people in the flesh.

Finally, it is here where Jehovah tells Mahonri that what he is seeing is not a body of flesh and bone, but a body of spirit.

Edited October 18, 2011 by mikbone

[mikbone]

JST, Revelation 1:8

For he saith, I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, the Lord, who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.

[volgadon]

I love this line. I was wondering if someone like volgadon could give us a true interpretation of the declaration. I was under the impression that the hebrew text was written in the past present and future tense so it really should read something like: I WAS, I AM, I WILL BE.

Not in the past tense, it is more like present continuous.

[mikbone]

Not in the past tense, it is more like present continuous.

OK, thanks. I never was a very good student of language and tenses. Can you give me a example of what it should be in english? Or is (I am that I am) the only translation?

Nother question.

John 8

56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad.

57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham?

58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.

I recall that the KJV of the NT is an English translation of a Greek tranlastion of the Hebrew. So is Jesus saying that prior to Abraham He was continuously present??

[Snow]

OK, thanks. I never was a very good student of language and tenses. Can you give me a example of what it should be in english? Or is (I am that I am) the only translation?

The Jerusalem Bible - the most scholarly of all English Bibles says, in response to Moses question: But if they ask me what his name is, what am I to tell them. And God said to Moses. "I am who I am. This' he added is what you must say to the sons of Israel: "I Am has sent me to you." And God also said unto Moses, "You are to say to the sons of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob has sent me to you."

Robert Millet says that he thinks the expression represents what is known as a Hiphil construction, a causative form of the verb [to be]; in short, the Lord's words would mean "I cause to exist" or "I cause to be." This form expresses continuos duration and so it implies that God maintains of sustains.

[mikbone]

Perhaps this is what I was recalling...

This Is My Name Forever

According to the rules of biblical Hebrew grammar (as preserved in the Masoretic Text), the verb root behind the name Yhwh should be hawah, "become". By contrast, the phrase ehyeh asher ehyeh (which effectively translates Yhwh’s meaning) is derived from the much more commonly used root hayah, "fall out, come to pass, become, be". The early rabbis thus understood the meaning of Yhwh as "He Who Was, and Is, and Will Be" (that is, asher hayah wehoweh weyihyeh, all of which words derive from hayah). The Greek phrase in Revelation 4:8 and elsewhere, once back-translated into Hebrew, is very similar (asher hayah wehoweh weyavo, "Who Was, and Is, and Is to Come"). The apparent conundrum here is resolved when one realizes that hawah had fallen out of common use when God revealed His personal name to Moses (or when the account of events was written down in its present form by later scribes).

Anyway, what I was trying to get at was that Moses probably had a similar revelation as the Brother of Jared. That Moses was introduced to Jehovah as not only the God of Abraham, but also as the Father's chosen to carry out the plan of salvation. That Moses was allowed within the veil to recognize Jehovah as the own who was like unto God (Abr 3:24) during the pre-mortal existence. And that Moses was also allowed the knowledge that Jehovah would eventualy become the mortal savior.

The knowledge of who Jehovah was, who he is, and what His future roles in the plan of salvation were to be; are way more important then knowing his name.

Edited October 20, 2011 by mikbone

[jerome1232]

I recall that the KJV of the NT is an English translation of a Greek tranlastion of the Hebrew.

offtopic, but I thought it was a revision of previous English bibles with some translation from Greek and Hebrew sources.

[mikbone]

offtopic, but I thought it was a revision of previous English bibles with some translation from Greek and Hebrew sources.

Authorized King James Version - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Justice]

The Jerusalem Bible - the most scholarly of all English Bibles...

Although I had heard of this Bible before, I was never inspiried to research it, for some reason, until you posted about it. I thought this was interesting:

The translation itself uses a literal approach that has been admired for its literary qualities, perhaps in part due to its most famous contributor, J.R.R. Tolkien (his primary contribution was the translation of Jonah)...

It is a Catholic translation and was encouraged by Pope Pius the 12th in 1943 (English in 1966). It's different from most translations because it uses the Hebrew and Greek instead of the Vulgate. I would be excited to read it and see what insights it offers, but I know that even history itself is tainted by the beliefs of the writer and reader, and when language tranlations are necessary, the tranlators as well.

Does anyone have any general comments aobut it who has read it?

[volgadon]

The Jerusalem Bible - the most scholarly of all English Bibles says, in response to Moses question:

We can certainly debate that, the new JPS is every inch as scholarly when it comes to the Hebrew Bible, as is Robert Alter's recent translation, if not more so.

But if they ask me what his name is, what am I to tell them. And God said to Moses. "I am who I am. This' he added is what you must say to the sons of Israel: "I Am has sent me to you." And God also said unto Moses, "You are to say to the sons of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob has sent me to you."

I am that I am is probably a better translation in this case, asw the Hebrew doesn't use the word "who." Not that it matters a whole lot.

Robert Millet says that he thinks the expression represents what is known as a Hiphil construction, a causative form of the verb [to be]; in short, the Lord's words would mean "I cause to exist" or "I cause to be." This form expresses continuos duration and so it implies that God maintains of sustains.

Robert Millet is far from the only one to hold that opinion. It is certainly reasonable. Other options include causing rain and lightning; tumultuous noise; always existing; costantly present with his people.

[Snow]

Although I had heard of this Bible before, I was never inspiried to research it, for some reason, until you posted about it. I thought this was interesting:

The translation itself uses a literal approach that has been admired for its literary qualities, perhaps in part due to its most famous contributor, J.R.R. Tolkien (his primary contribution was the translation of Jonah)...

It is a Catholic translation and was encouraged by Pope Pius the 12th in 1943 (English in 1966). It's different from most translations because it uses the Hebrew and Greek instead of the Vulgate. I would be excited to read it and see what insights it offers, but I know that even history itself is tainted by the beliefs of the writer and reader, and when language tranlations are necessary, the tranlators as well.

Does anyone have any general comments aobut it who has read it?

Well - I read it. For birthdays and Christmas people give me cash and Barnes and Noble gift cards instead of other gifts so I can buy books. I haven't run across anything that stands out as being biased or skewed - but then I don't know what the original manuscripts said so who's to say. It's much better written - for a modern audience - than the KJV, much clearer and the translation of most any modern version is going to be a better translation than the KJV - especially given the KJV lousy manuscript sources.

[Guest Magen_Avot]

The Jerusalem Bible - the most scholarly of all English Bibles says, in response to Moses question: But if they ask me what his name is, what am I to tell them. And God said to Moses. "I am who I am. This' he added is what you must say to the sons of Israel: "I Am has sent me to you." And God also said unto Moses, "You are to say to the sons of Israel: Yahweh, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob has sent me to you."

Robert Millet says that he thinks the expression represents what is known as a Hiphil construction, a causative form of the verb [to be]; in short, the Lord's words would mean "I cause to exist" or "I cause to be." This form expresses continuos duration and so it implies that God maintains of sustains.

I have the Jerusalem Bible too and I always use I Cor 15:29 as my standard test and the JB is excellent and I love it for study.

(off topic I also have the first print "Diaglott" a New Testiment Greek interlinear translation which is the basis for the New World Translation used by Jehovah's Witnesses and it is very excellent too. This was before changes were instituted in the NWT.)