Numerical Singularity

[peteolcott]

You see, God has confirmed the opposite to me more than once. When I served a mission I never told someone that they had to believe in the restoration because God told me so. I always said that they shouldn't believe based on my experiences, but should pray and wait confirmation from God. If they had questions I was never afraid to discuss it rationally with people.

I am not, but why won't you say where Udd supports your reading, and who that anonymous scholar is?

I said panENtheism, not pantheism. It is exactly what you are proposing.

1 cor 28

And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

[peteolcott]

Thank you. Was it really that hard?

Since I don't believe in appeal to authority, lets discuss the verses, see if your reading is justified. I'm sure that with all of your hours of Hebrew study you won't mind.

You don't believe in an appeal to authority even though the LDS faith has as its foundation an the appeal to the ultimate authority? I am only asking you to appeal to the same authority that Joseph Smith did when he was a boy of 14.

[peteolcott]

Thank you. Was it really that hard?

Since I don't believe in appeal to authority, lets discuss the verses, see if your reading is justified. I'm sure that with all of your hours of Hebrew study you won't mind.

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[Dravin]

You don't believe in an appeal to authority even though the LDS faith has as its foundation an the appeal to the ultimate authority? I am only asking you to appeal to the same authority that Joseph Smith did when he was a boy of 14.

Unless you were proposing that Udd and the unknown scholar on the internet are God, then no, that is not the only appeal you've made. It looks like you are going a different direction now but you did bring them up in support of your position.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Isaiah 45:6

I am the Lord and there is none else. (Nothing besides God exists)

John 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (One and the same as, numerical singularity)

Galations 5:14

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Your neighbor IS yourself)

The Holy Spirit will confirm the above.

Moroni 10:4

if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

Yes, these are the teachings that help us learn the Christlike mindset. The most happiness one can experience in this life and the world to come is if one takes pleasure in the success of others. If we love others as we do ourselves, if we see all of us as one, then every success that any one of us has is shared by everyone else. This is how there can be eternal happiness, when it extends to all those that we are linked with both in the past and in the future. This is an important teaching that I think few in this world really understand. I don't know if I really understand it all the way but I can appreciate it in little ways. For example, when my child does well in school, I can feel the joy that they feel.

Won't that be wonderful joy when we can experience it in that way with everyone around us. That close of a connection though will only be with those that want that kind of connection, in the Celestial Kingdom. People who do not see others as one with them will have a place prepared for them where everyone is not one, where there is no family. This life is a test to see where our heart is, is it in the idea of shared glory and experience or is it in the selfish ideals of having to achieve everything on one's own and keeping the glory for themselves. The gospel's goal is to teach us that desire for that kind of connection with all of our brothers and sisters.

[peteolcott]

Unless you were proposing that Udd and the unknown scholar on the internet are God, then no, that is not the only appeal you've made. It looks like you are going a different direction now but you did bring them up in support of your position.

I am asking that you yourself and others reading this thread ask the Holy Spirit to confirm what I have said.

[volgadon]

You don't believe in an appeal to authority even though the LDS faith has as its foundation an the appeal to the ultimate authority? I am only asking you to appeal to the same authority that Joseph Smith did when he was a boy of 14.

I think that you are misunderstanding what an appeal to authority means when it comes to logical fallacies.

An appeal to authority means that instead of a line of reasoning you say "I am right because Dr. Sneerwell says so and he should know, being a professor of such-and-such and he is really smart."

I don't use God as the ace up my sleeve. Tends to stifle discussion.

Since I've already prayed about panentheism and had recieved an answer that it is false, it would take a convincing reason for me to pray about it when I already have an answer, Especially when your reading is so obviously out of context that I find it hard to credit your statement that you have seriously studied Biblical Hebrew.

You have yet to show my I should take as a precise mathematical equation a verse written in a society that did not even use the zero.

[volgadon]

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One thing at a time. Let's discuss the Isaiah verses you have mentioned.

[james12]

Isaiah 45:6

I am the Lord and there is none else. (Nothing besides God exists)

John 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (One and the same as, numerical singularity)

Galations 5:14

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Your neighbor IS yourself)

The Holy Spirit will confirm the above.

Moroni 10:4

if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

The whole premise of this original post reminds me of a statement in Section 7 of Lectures On Faith, "But to be a little more particular, let us ask, where shall we find a prototype into whose likeness we may be assimilated, so we may be made partakers of life and salvation?" I have always found the word "assimilated" rather repellent. It sounds too much like the Borg from Star Trek. I don't know that I want to be assimilated.

[peteolcott]

One thing at a time. Let's discuss the Isaiah verses you have mentioned.

Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that God personally exists, interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it.

I suspect that you may be showing the human nature's tendancy to want to be right more than to desire truth. I see no way that the above verse is not synonomous with the above definition.

[MarginOfError]

Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that God personally exists, interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it.

I suspect that you may be showing the human nature's tendancy to want to be right more than to desire truth. I see no way that the above verse is not synonomous with the above definition.

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22 

I see no way that the liked verse in any way supports Panentheism.

[peteolcott]

The whole premise of this original post reminds me of a statement in Section 7 of Lectures On Faith, "But to be a little more particular, let us ask, where shall we find a prototype into whose likeness we may be assimilated, so we may be made partakers of life and salvation?" I have always found the word "assimilated" rather repellent. It sounds too much like the Borg from Star Trek. I don't know that I want to be assimilated.

I agree it does sound too much like the Borg. I think that the idea might be something like relax and "go with the flow" of the Holy Spirit's promptings. I think that we get to a point where our will and that of the Holy Spirit's are merged together into a singularity. Our individuality remains intact.

[peteolcott]

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22*

I see no way that the liked verse in any way supports Panentheism.

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

OK so after reading Ephesians 4:6 and D&C 130:22 you see no way that God can be within us? (Panetheism).

[volgadon]

Panentheism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Panentheism (from Greek πᾶν (pân) "all"; ἐν (en) "in"; and θεός (theós) "God"; "all-in-God") is a belief system which posits that God personally exists, interpenetrates every part of nature and timelessly extends beyond it.

I suspect that you may be showing the human nature's tendancy to want to be right more than to desire truth. I see no way that the above verse is not synonomous with the above definition.

If we look at Isaiah 45:5 it says: I am YHWH, no other is, besides me there is no god, I will gird you even though you knew me not.

46:6 In order that they will know eastward from the sun and west of it that there is none but me, I am YHWH, no other is.

46:7 Maker of ligh and creater of darkness, maker of peace and creator of evil, I am YHWH who does all these things.

Note that nowhere does he claim to be all these things, and that his comments on being the only one refer to other gods. All this comes in the context of a message to Cyrus, telling him where his true source of victory will come from.

[volgadon]

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of cSpirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

OK so after reading Ephesians 4:6 and D&C 130:22 you see no way that God can be within us? (Panetheism).

The Father has a body of flesh & bones as tangible as mans the Son also, but the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit. --and a person cannot have the personage of the H G in his heart he may receive the gift of the holy Ghost. it may descend upon him but not to tarry with him (Joseph Smith diary as recorded by Willard Richards)

The Holy Ghost is a personage, and a person cannot have the personage of the Holy Ghost in his heart. A man receive the gifts of the H. G., and the H. G. may descend upon a man but not to tarry with him. (William Clayton diary)

[peteolcott]

If we look at Isaiah 45:5 it says: I am YHWH, no other is, besides me there is no god, I will gird you even though you knew me not.

46:6 In order that they will know eastward from the sun and west of it that there is none but me, I am YHWH, no other is.

46:7 Maker of ligh and creater of darkness, maker of peace and creator of evil, I am YHWH who does all these things.

Note that nowhere does he claim to be all these things, and that his comments on being the only one refer to other gods. All this comes in the context of a message to Cyrus, telling him where his true source of victory will come from.

Because the quoting does not quote everything what I said was not clear.

This verse is saying exactly panetheism:

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

[volgadon]

Because the quoting does not quote everything what I said was not clear.

Not making much sense there.

This verse is saying exactly panetheism:

Ephesians 4:6

One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

One God who is the father, or origin of all things, who is sovereign over all things and works through all things? That isn't panentheism. The only part that gets close is "in all".

[peteolcott]

Not making much sense there.

One God who is the father, or origin of all things, who is sovereign over all things and works through all things? That isn't panentheism. The only part that gets close is "in all".

Ephesians 4:6 (many different translations)

That is exactly the part that I was referring to. Also it says God is through all things not works through all things.

The reason that most people do not get to the truth is because they add words that are not there.

Edited November 3, 2011 by peteolcott

[Seminarysnoozer]

Isaiah 45:6

I am the Lord and there is none else. (Nothing besides God exists)

John 17:21

That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. (One and the same as, numerical singularity)

Galations 5:14

For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. (Your neighbor IS yourself)

The Holy Spirit will confirm the above.

Moroni 10:4

if ye shall ask with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ, he will manifest the truth of it unto you, by the power of the Holy Ghost.

I think if one tries to interpret these verses as literal description alone, then they will miss the point.

Yes, these are the teachings that help us learn the Christlike mindset. The most happiness one can experience in this life and the world to come is if one takes pleasure in the success of others. If we love others as we do ourselves, if we see all of us as one, then every success that any one of us has is shared by everyone else. This is how there can be eternal happiness, when it extends to all those that we are linked with both in the past and in the future. This is an important teaching that I think few in this world really understand. I don't know if I really understand it all the way but I can appreciate it in little ways. For example, when my child does well in school, I can feel the joy that they feel.

Won't that be wonderful joy when we can experience it in that way with everyone around us. That close of a connection though will only be with those that want that kind of connection, in the Celestial Kingdom. People who do not see others as one with them will have a place prepared for them where everyone is not one, where there is no family. This life is a test to see where our heart is, is it in the idea of shared glory and experience or is it in the selfish ideals of having to achieve everything on one's own and keeping the glory for themselves. The gospel's goal is to teach us that desire for that kind of connection with all of our brothers and sisters.

[volgadon]

Ephesians 4:6 (many different translations)

That is exactly the part that I was referring to. Also it says God is through all things not works through all things.

The reason that most people do not get to the truth is because they add words that are not there.

Another reason that many people do not get to the truth is because they insist on interpretating translations according to their own particular understanding of their own language, not the original's.

Just as "over all" carries implications of sovereignity, "through all" implies instrumentality.

Immanence is not the same thing as panentheism. Panentheism (yours, in particular) requires a radical level of immanence, whereas in LDS teachings it is far more limited and does not blur the numerical distinction between beings. See for example Moroni 7:15-19.

I've answered your sidetrack, now please address my post on Isaiah 45:5-7 instead of dodging it.

[peteolcott]

I've answered your sidetrack, now please address my post on Isaiah 45:5-7 instead of dodging it.

I know that my understanding of these verses is correct from hundreds of direct experiences of this singularity. From my point of view it is like you are telling me that apples do not exist, while I am eating one. Apparently it is simply not given for you to know these things, at least not yet.

[peteolcott]

See for example Moroni 7:15-19.

It looks like this is about judging good from evil. I myself use the criterion measure of agape (Greek for unconditional love, mistranslated in the King James as charity, aptly called "the pure love of Christ" by LDS).

[volgadon]

I know that my understanding of these verses is correct from hundreds of direct experiences of this singularity. From my point of view it is like you are telling me that apples do not exist, while I am eating one.

From my POV it is like you claiming that you and the apple are actually a quartz, the same piece of quartz, and so am I, the rest of mankind, and that jar of pickled herring, too.

Apparently it is simply not given for you to know these things, at least not yet.

Apparently you are utterly incapable of discussing your claims reasonably.

You resort instead to casting aspersions on my spirituality.

[volgadon]

It looks like this is about judging good from evil. I myself use the criterion measure of agape (Greek for unconditional love, mistranslated in the King James as charity, aptly called "the pure love of Christ" by LDS).

The reason I cited these verses is because they mention the means for judging. YOu have yet to cogently address my look at Isaiah 45:5-7.

[peteolcott]

Apparently you are utterly incapable of discussing your claims reasonably.

You resort instead to casting aspersions on my spirituality.

Not at all. I have also experienced the impression that Mormons are far more spiritually receptive than most. I have not seen that you are any exception to this rule.

It may be simply that most of mankind is not yet ready for what I am saying because it is not yet time for them to know this.