Sinning In Ignrance?

[Princess3dward]

Okay....

God is fair, and we shall all be judged fairly,

so say you sin in ignorance, and you find out it was a sin, and you stopped doing it anyway, but now you know it was bad... you stopped just because you didn't want to...

So now you sinned, but you didn't know.... but it was a while ago, and you feel it is in your past.

Do you still need to go through ALL the steps of repentance, or if you have stopped, and don't want to do it anymore, and havn't wanted to in forever, are you okay?

Would you know if you are okay?

If you feel like you are forgiven anyway, are you forgiven?

Is that up to the person to decide?

[Dr T]

Great question Desire,

I have wondered about the LDS response to that and to the sin that was committed but never recognized (prior to knowledge that it was sinful). For example, the 4 or 5 year old that lied to someone. You wouldn't necessarily remember that sin yet it "is still on your record" as a sin since you never repented of it. I'm sure there are many things like that in our lives. Sin is sin, God is sinless/perfect. If we come to Him with any blemish, He would spit us out. How do you reconcile that?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

Great question Desire,

I have wondered about the LDS response to that and to the sin that was committed but never recognized (prior to knowledge that it was sinful). For example, the 4 or 5 year old that lied to someone. You wouldn't necessarily remember that sin yet it "is still on your record" as a sin since you never repented of it. I'm sure there are many things like that in our lives. Sin is sin, God is sinless/perfect. If we come to Him with any blemish, He would spit us out. How do you reconcile that?

Thanks,

Dr. T

I know children before the age of 8 don't sin... and I know after baptism, all of your previous sins are washed away, but what if you didn't fully understand one of the laws? And you learn a little part of it and think, "wait a second..".

[Dr T]

Hey Des,

You said,

I know children before the age of 8 don't sin... and I know after baptism, all of your previous sins are washed away, but what if you didn't fully understand one of the laws? And you learn a little part of it and think, "wait a second..".

You "know" that children before 8 don't sin." My children, all under 8-do sin in multiple ways. Can you give me support for your thought on that?

Maybe you can define the word "sin" for us so that we are on the same page.

Thank you,

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

Sorry.. they arn't accountable.

I know that children below the age of eight are not accountable for their sins,

and that is why we don't baptise them.

[Dr T]

I'll have to find the verses that talk about sinfulness and see if we can show sin/accountablility. Don't have time now, but I'll look.

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

I'll have to find the verses that talk about sinfulness and see if we can show sin/accountablility. Don't have time now, but I'll look.

Dr. T

Alright, you do that,

but I follow another source,

which is the prophet of God..

[JoshuaFKon]

So now you sinned, but you didn't know.... but it was a while ago, and you feel it is in your past.

Do you still need to go through ALL the steps of repentance, or if you have stopped, and don't want to do it anymore, and havn't wanted to in forever, are you okay?

What are the "steps of repentance?" why not just say "God, please forgive me for my sin, I repent (turn from your sin) and then stop sinning? what else is there to do? What else could you do?

Josh

[prisonchaplain]

A sin that is truly done in ignorance--especially a sin in the distant past--probably would require a prayer like, "O Lord, I just realized that when I did such and such, five years ago, that was wrong. Forgive me and help me not to repeat the act again. If I need to go and make the wrong right with anyone, show me what to do. Amen."

Another thought: I'm convinced that 99% of our sins are willful and intentional, and that we often excuse ourselves too quickly. But, maybe it's just me?

[Princess3dward]

Can't an LDS member respond?

No offence, but they KNOW the doctrine.

I would feel better that way.. that is all..

Hey! Are you guyz youth?

[LionHeart]

Hello Desire, if you read in the Pearl of Great Price, in Joseph Smith's History, you will find a story that will answer your question; the highlights of which are as follows:

When Joseph Smith had recieved his first vision, he was instructed to join none of the churches. But he was not given instructions on what he should do. Some years had gone by and he gave in to various temptations; temptations which he knew were wrong in the eyes of God.

Now consider his situation: He knew his redeemer lives for he saw Him in person. He did not need to depend on faith for he knew. And with this knowledge, he knowingly sinned against the Almighty. If anyone could be condemned, it would have been him.

So reflecting on his actions, and feeling condemned, he decided to pray and ask his Father in Heaven to manifest his standing before him. It was then that the angel of Moroni appeared to him and showed him where the plates were. So even though he had knowingly commited sin, he still maintained his position as a prophet of God.

This life is an opportunity for personal progress. In the end, it's not about what we have done, but who we have become. Most sins are forgivable. Somebody who was capable of commiting terrible sins, and perhaps did so ten years ago, may have improved upon their character to the point that it would be impossible for them now. And this is what we are judged by; regardless of whether the sin was commited in ignorance or knowingly.

It all boils down to what we have used our time for. Did we use it to become a better person; or did we squander it on greed and selfishness?

I hope this helps.

L.H.

[Princess3dward]

Hello Desire, if you read in the Pearl of Great Price, in Joseph Smith's History, you will find a story that will answer your question; the highlights of which are as follows:

When Joseph Smith had recieved his first vision, he was instructed to join none of the churches. But he was not given instructions on what he should do. Some years had gone by and he gave in to various temptations; temptations which he knew were wrong in the eyes of God.

Now consider his situation: He knew his redeemer lives for he saw Him in person. He did not need to depend on faith for he knew. And with this knowledge, he knowingly sinned against the Almighty. If anyone could be condemned, it would have been him.

So reflecting on his actions, and feeling condemned, he decided to pray and ask his Father in Heaven to manifest his standing before him. It was then that the angel of Moroni appeared to him and showed him where the plates were. So even though he had knowingly commited sin, he still maintained his position as a prophet of God.

This life is an opportunity for personal progress. In the end, it's not about what we have done, but who we have become. Most sins are forgivable. Somebody who was capable of commiting terrible sins, and perhaps did so ten years ago, may have improved upon their character to the point that it would be impossible for them now. And this is what we are judged by; regardless of whether the sin was commited in ignorance or knowingly.

It all boils down to what we have used our time for. Did we use it to become a better person; or did we squander it on greed and selfishness?

I hope this helps.

L.H.

Thank you SOO MUCH L.H!!!!!

Have a very good night!!!!!!!!

Love Dez!

[Dr T]

Hi LH,

So, your view holds that salvation is based on growth in godliness? If someone was utterly evil, it only requires that he/she willfully change. Is that all that is needed?

Thanks

[LionHeart]

Yes Dr.T, I believe that God, who resides in the Celestial kingdom, lives a lifestyle worthy of that kingdom. If we desire to reside in his presence, we too, must submit to a lifestyle worthy of that kingdom. Even though someone is a downright evil person, he can change. And if he puts forth enough effort to making that change and gets to the point where his lifestyle is worthy of a celestial glory, he will recieve that glory. Consider the apostle Paul. He was one of the Church's most dire persecutors. But after the angel came and set him straight, he made a complete 180 and became one of the great prophets of the bible. And I don't doubt that he attained a celestial glory regardless of his persecuting the church.

The only sin that cannot be forgiven is the sin against the holy ghost; which is basically knowingly sinning, or openly rebelling, and not repenting or turning away from it before the end of this life. But if we waste our time, and repent on our death bed, our character will not be perfected enough to be worthy of a celestial glory. Although our sins will be forgiven, we will attain a lesser glory.

L.H.

[Dr T]

When Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise." He didn't have time to live a life that "out weighed" his sinfulness. I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

Thank you,

Dr. T

[LionHeart]

When Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise." He didn't have time to live a life that "out weighed" his sinfulness. I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

Thank you,

Dr. T

Yes, for those who do repent, whether early on, or lying on their death bed go to a resting place called paradise; where they rest from all cares, and await judgment. It is after this time of rest, and the decision has been made as to where they go, that they finally enter into their respective kingdoms. Remember when Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene but told her not to touch him because he had not yet ascended to his father. In other words, his time in paradise was not yet complete. Of course Jesus had no need to be judged, He spent His time there teaching the gospel to those who had not the opportunity to recieve it; among which were people all the way from the beginning of the world.

L.H.

[Dr T]

Thanks LH,

Doesn't Jesus do the judging?

Thank you :)

[Princess3dward]

When Jesus told the thief on the cross, "Today you will be with me in paradise." He didn't have time to live a life that "out weighed" his sinfulness. I'm curious about your thoughts on this.

Thank you,

Dr. T

I was taught that wasn't the celestial kingdom, but that he would get taught in paradise! The spirit world before the judgment..

You are actually beginning to tread some slightly deep doctrine... it CAN get that way anyway.. but not with the way I say things. lol.

[LionHeart]

Thanks LH,

Doesn't Jesus do the judging?

Thank you :)

He does now, and He did before he came to this Earth, but while He was here and while He was in paridise, His Father took over for Him.

L.H.

[prisonchaplain]

For some reason Desire's excellent questions are attracting non-LDS non-youths. Interesting. :-)

[Dr T]

<div class='quotemain'>

Thanks LH,

Doesn't Jesus do the judging?

Thank you :)

He does now, and He did before he came to this Earth, but while He was here and while He was in paridise, His Father took over for Him.

L.H.

Hi L.H.,

From where do you get the idea that the Father took over that role?

Thank you,

Dr. T

[LionHeart]

Hi L.H.,

From where do you get the idea that the Father took over that role?

Thank you,

Dr. T

Through the process of elimination. See, obviously Jesus has a Father in Heaven, but I also believe that His Father in Heaven also has a Father in Heaven and on up into eternity. If Jesus was taken away from Heaven on business, so to speak, someone would have to fill in for Him. The most likely candidate is His Father.

L.H.

[Dr T]

L.H.,

You are really opening my eyes to your beliefs. Would you say, this type of thinking is official LDS teachings?

Thank you,

Dr. T

[LionHeart]

L.H.,

You are really opening my eyes to your beliefs. Would you say, this type of thinking is official LDS teachings?

Thank you,

Dr. T

I would say that it is a bit grey so far as "Offical Belief" is concerned, but when you take the teachings of Joseph Smith and compile them together, you come to this conclusion:

Moses 1: 35 In the heavens there are many worlds.

Discourse given by Joseph Smith, June 16 1844:

In the very beginning the Bible shows there is a plurality of Gods beyond the power of refutation. It is a great subject I am dwelling on. The word Eloheim ought to be in the plural all the way through -- Gods. The heads of the Gods appointed one God for us; and when you take [that] view of the subject, its sets one free to see all the beauty, holiness and perfection of the Gods. All I want is to get the simple, naked truth, and the whole truth.----If Jesus Christ was the Son of God, and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father, you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son? Whenever did a tree or anything spring into existence without a progenitor? And everything comes in this way. Paul says that which is earthly is in the likeness of that which is heavenly, Hence if Jesus had a Father, can we not believe that He had a Father also? I despise the idea of being scared to death at such a doctrine, for the Bible is full of it.

From this we gather that God the Father also has a Father.

King Follett Discourse, delivered by Joseph Smith, April 6, 1844:

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted Man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens. That is the great secret."

"The Scriptures inform us that Jesus said, "As the Father hath power in himself, even so hath the Son power"--to do what? Why, what the Father did. The answer is obvious--in a manner, to lay down his body and take it up again. Jesus, what are you going to do? To lay down my life, as my Father did, and take it up again. Do you believe it? If you do not believe it, you do not believe the Bible."

"You have got to learn how to be Gods yourselves, and to be kings and priests to God, the same as all Gods have done before you,--namely, by going from one small degree to another, and from a small capacity to a great one,--from grace to grace, from exaltation to exaltation, until you attain to the resurrection of the dead, and are able to dwell in everlasting burnings and to sit in glory, as do those who sit enthroned in everlasting power."

So to put it all together, Gods exist from eternity to eternity. There is an eternity of Gods and an eternity of worlds. But for us, we have but one God to be concerned with. As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become. We also have the opportunity to progress to the condition of Godhood.

Now here's where the grey area comes in: This doctrine would suggest that God has an eternity of progress ahead of Him; and always will. It is common LDS teaching that he does not; that He is progressed as far as anyone can progress. So I suppose it depends on who you ask. But if one was to take the teachings of Joseph Smith seriously, they would have to agree that God still has the ability to progress. "I am alpha and omega, I am from everlasting to everlasting, without beginning of days or end of years." If there was an end of progress, how then, could God be from everlasting to everlasting? If there is a beginning, there must be an end. It would be inconsistent with the existence of God if there was a beginning and an end in some things and not in others. If you take a ring for example, it continues around and around for eternity. But if you break it, it now has a beginning and an end. Therefore, if something has a beginning, it must have an end.

But it gets quite deep at this point; anything further than this is just downright confusing to think about.

I do remember reading somewhere that our mere mortal minds are incapable of comprehending the fulness of the mysteries of Heaven.

L.H.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hi L.H.,

From where do you get the idea that the Father took over that role?

Thank you,

Dr. T

Through the process of elimination. See, obviously Jesus has a Father in Heaven, but I also believe that His Father in Heaven also has a Father in Heaven and on up into eternity. If Jesus was taken away from Heaven on business, so to speak, someone would have to fill in for Him. The most likely candidate is His Father.

L.H.

I believe that other people take over... like, maybe people who lived the gosple and want to teach more.... UNOFFICIAL BELIEF!

For some reason Desire's excellent questions are attracting non-LDS non-youths. Interesting. :-)

I know. I have pretty much given up trying to ask youth anything. lol.

I don't mind though.

This proves you all love me!