A new kind of social political thinking

[annewandering]

I‘ll continue to trust the government over someone like you when it comes to determining what I am, and am not, capable of doing. I will, thank you. No I wouldn’t. That’s why, despite my disability, and because I live in America, I am one of the luckiest people on the planet. If I lived most other places in the world, I would not be alive, and I am beyond grateful for the help my country has given me.

Elphaba

Elphaba, likewise I am grateful to this country for allowing me life, and along with that life a bit of self respect. Thanks to public health services I no longer am concerned, day to day, if I will die for lack of medical care. At least for simple things.

It might surprise some of you to know that when ever we have needed help in the past for more than a few weeks our bishops have encouraged us to go ask for public aid. Church welfare is for temporary instances not for chronic care, at least in every situation we have known. Occasionally people in the church help us out with something specific we need done. We are grateful for that. They have helped patch our roof. It needs a new roof but that is a large expense and effort for any one to help out with so it is going to continue to decline. I know I am not going to ask. We needed a new septic line. My brother and some men in our ward helped put that in. I am very grateful. My mom brings us food when she knows we need help. She is 84 years old. Believe me I am grateful.

So what about the elderly couple living in Detroit that isnt a member of the church and has no family? That town is falling apart in the economic crisis. People that can are abandoning the town. What can they do? The government can and should be a part of helping make sure no one falls between the cracks.

Poor people and the sick, disabled and elderly are always going to be among us. They are there not because of their sins. They are there because of our sins. Because of our cold hearted lack of caring. We can never have a millennial world so long as our material world means so much to us.

[Backroads]

annewandering and Elphaba, I don't mean this to be rude, but I have seen many severely disabled people who happily work full-time when their conditions could probably get them disability help from the government. What are your thoughts on that? Is it better for someone with severe disabilities to work or to rely on other forms of help? Or would you say it depends on the individual?

Edited November 20, 2011 by Backroads

[annewandering]

annewandering and Elphaba, I don't mean this to be rude, but I have seen many severely disabled people who happily work full-time when their conditions could probably get them disability help from the government. What are your thoughts on that? Is it better for someone with severe disabilities to work or to rely on other forms of help? Or would you say it depends on the individual?

I would say it depends on the disability and finding a business that will hire you. Using my husband as an example, he was denied jobs over and over because of company insurance companies refusing to let him be hired. Yes he was told that by the hiring person after being told he would be hired after they checked with their insurance companies. Usually they just told him they couldnt hire him because insurance would not allow it.

Now it would be dangerous for all if they hired him so insurance or not its a no go. As for me I might be able to work sometimes if it was safe to leave my husband alone which it is not. Not many will hire you if you can only work sometimes. In other words on my good days.

Sure it would be great for disabled people to work. Much better. In the United Order it would even work for a lot more people.

[sister_in_faith]

annewandering and Elphaba, I don't mean this to be rude, but I have seen many severely disabled people who happily work full-time when their conditions could probably get them disability help from the government. What are your thoughts on that? Is it better for someone with severe disabilities to work or to rely on other forms of help? Or would you say it depends on the individual?

It definately depends on the individual. I don't LOOK disabled, but I am. I was even asked to leave a Subway (after I had eaten, and was walking out) and not come back because of my service dog. She had a vest on, and I explained it to the worker who told me that it was againt federal law to have an animal in a restaurant. I ended up having to BEG them to let her keep her job, because she just didn't know any better. But the big thing when we were discussing why it happened was that the worker thought that the service dog couldn't be real because I had read the menu, so it was obvious that I wasn't blind. I ended up having to give them a primer on disabilities that are not obvious.

On the other hand there are people who may look disabled who are perfectly able to work with the correct accommodations.

I think that if someone is able to work, they shouldn't be able to collect disability. That's the whole point of it. If you can work, work. If you can't and need help, then you get the help you need.

I think it is important to note that most people who are on disability don't want to be. My doctor, when I was granted some assistance was abosolutly delighted, and asked me why I wasn't. She said that her experience is often that people have a period of increased suicidal and depressed behavior after being granted disability, because they feel like they are a burden on society. I know that is how I feel. I had to have it explained by the social worker that I wasn't taking tax dollars, that it was money that I had paid into the system while I was working. It was very difficult for me to accept that I needed assistance, and couldn't work.

More than anything I want to go back to being a dispatcher. I love that job. I dream about it (literally) almost every night. I remember after I left my job I asked my boyfriend if he thought I would ever answer a 911 call again, and he said yes. I got my patriarchal blessing and it says that I will be an insturment in 'saving and rescuing' others, so I hope one day I WILL be able to work again.

Ask people who are on disability if they would like to be working, and I think you would be surprised how badly they want to.

[annewandering]

It definately depends on the individual. I don't LOOK disabled, but I am. I was even asked to leave a Subway (after I had eaten, and was walking out) and not come back because of my service dog. She had a vest on, and I explained it to the worker who told me that it was againt federal law to have an animal in a restaurant. I ended up having to BEG them to let her keep her job, because she just didn't know any better. But the big thing when we were discussing why it happened was that the worker thought that the service dog couldn't be real because I had read the menu, so it was obvious that I wasn't blind. I ended up having to give them a primer on disabilities that are not obvious.

On the other hand there are people who may look disabled who are perfectly able to work with the correct accommodations.

I think that if someone is able to work, they shouldn't be able to collect disability. That's the whole point of it. If you can work, work. If you can't and need help, then you get the help you need.

I think it is important to note that most people who are on disability don't want to be. My doctor, when I was granted some assistance was abosolutly delighted, and asked me why I wasn't. She said that her experience is often that people have a period of increased suicidal and depressed behavior after being granted disability, because they feel like they are a burden on society. I know that is how I feel. I had to have it explained by the social worker that I wasn't taking tax dollars, that it was money that I had paid into the system while I was working. It was very difficult for me to accept that I needed assistance, and couldn't work.

More than anything I want to go back to being a dispatcher. I love that job. I dream about it (literally) almost every night. I remember after I left my job I asked my boyfriend if he thought I would ever answer a 911 call again, and he said yes. I got my patriarchal blessing and it says that I will be an insturment in 'saving and rescuing' others, so I hope one day I WILL be able to work again.

Ask people who are on disability if they would like to be working, and I think you would be surprised how badly they want to.

I know very few people who are happy to be declared disabled. My husband at 70 still talks about getting a job which is just out of the question. I was happy to get it. I had nearly died from lack of medical care so was very glad to be able to get that. Sometimes I seriously wonder if it was worth it except my husband has to have me around.

[Traveler]

I want to give a personal thank you to those with handicaps (disabilities) that have expressed a desire to work and contribute. More than any other single factor - I believe this desire to work and contribute to be the single most important principle to be upheld by any society attempting to achieve economic stability, improvement and even greatness.

I have come to believe that economy should not be based on money or any other type of monetary measurements. I believe such efforts to be pseudo measurements that will give false misleading results. Rather I believe economies should (in reality must) be measured by the ability of that society to establish meaningful and gainful employment to the most members of that society. Thus all help for those in need, would be measured and thought of with the single focus of establishing meaningful and gainful employment.

But in reality we must move beyond just the poor. Every business - every company and indeed even ever worker and citizen of each community should be focused on improving the working environment to insure that every member of society is encouraged to improve the gain and meaningfulness of their employment. The greatest right and responsibility of economy is that right to contribute. Even (especially) those with difficulties should be honored and respected for their contribution.

Perhaps our biggest failure is in teaching and training children to contribute - especially between the ages of 12 and 18. I believe much of the rebellion in teenagers comes from their feeling that they have little or nothing to contribute to society. There was a particular youth in my neighborhood that was labeled as a bully. Several neighbors had discussions with the boy’s parents. It talking with the parents (non-LDS) I discovered that the family did not feel a part of the neighborhood. I approached the boy (about 14 at the time) and asked if he would work for me and take care of my yard. I have some fruit trees and an out building (utility barn). I put him to work for a few hours each week and paid him well. The change was dramatic. He did so well other neighbors have utilized his services. But the biggest change is that we have become “HIS” neighbors and this is his neighborhood. He is now 18 (still not LDS) but is very friendly and on a number of occasions - when I am working in my yard and come over just to help out.

In general I believe we have become a society where we think work is demeaning. I am surprised how many view various opportunities as “dead end jobs”. How many time have I heard youth say - I would never work somewhere like McDonald’s. Whatever our task - we should think ourselves experts at it. Often when eating out - before leaving I ask to speak with the cook and I thank them for their excellent work. It is amazing how many recognize me when I come back.

Life is so much more fun when we respect each other - and that respect can only be real when there are contributions made. Let us all honor and respect work and all those that work and are willing to work and contribute.

The Traveler

[Backroads]

Even for teenagers fast food jobs are considered lowly. My dad has commented that when he was young working at McDonald's was simply what kids did for money. Now your average 16-year-old must get something more respectable. And if you're not working at McDonald's, you're only a success if you're able to retire by age 30 (don't get me wrong, I think that would be awesome). It's like we are returning to some old European status where working is bad and you're only worth something if you already inexplicably have money off of which to live.

[annewandering]

Where any one ever got the idea that any kind of work was demeaning I have no idea. Refusing to work is what is demeaning. Sadly not being able to work is also demeaning. Or feels like it.

One of these days we are going to get it right. :)

[sister_in_faith]

Another aspect to this, is that getting disability is NOT easy. I don't know about other's experiences, but I had to put in an application, and it took getting denied 3 times, to get to a hearing, so that I could actually TALK to someone. I ended up getting an attorney for that hearing, because I was so stressed out about it. They explained to me that their determination for if someone can work or not is if someone can is able to simply pull a lever to make 'widgets'. If someone can sit and do that, then they are not disabled. Even tho that job may not be available, that is still the criteria they use. In my hearing the system had brought in a psychologist, someone else (I don't remember), and a job expert (forget the title). I had me and my attorney, and my boyfriend got to sit in the back. Everyone acted like they had a stick or some foreign object stuck up in their buttock region. It was terrifiying. I wanted to melt into a puddle on the floor. I may have left a puddle on the floor. Don't remember. Anywho, the judge sat and listened to my attorney speak, and their psychiatrist speak, and then he stopped the 'trial' and said he didn't need to hear any more, that I was unable to work, and then he yelled at me for a little bit (don't remember about what) before my attorney picked me up and drug me out of the court room. I remember crying because the mean man yelled at me. Everyone kept congratulating me, and I kept crying.

It was not an easy process, and if they put everyone thru what I went thru, then I don't think there are a lot of people out there who are getting disability without having some basis for it. And it took me YEARS to get thru it. Seriously, not an easy process. And I have a stack of medical records probably 5 inches tall, just from one hospital. I had to undergo lots of testing from their doctors too.

[annewandering]

That is the truth, Sister in Faith. My husband had to get to the same stage you did. He was 'lucky' and his lawyer, it turns out was sneaky. The small room, with a lot of strangers there to judge him, was just too much and they did not allow me to be there so he was alone. He completely lost it and was very confused and didnt even remember what was going on. He was so embarrassed about it but later the lawyer told him that he expected it and actually hoped for it. There was no question in their mind that he was not able to work. This was after a long long process of being denied and getting depressed and being denied and giving up and trying again and being denied and trying again.... It was very hard for him.

When I did mine I went to an employment doctor. I was having such a bad day that I could barely walk and everything she made me do hurt so bad I cried. (imagine walking tippytoes when your feet feel like someone has taken a bat to them over and over and all the bones feel broken) Since I had spent my adult life raising 8 children I was not eligible for anything but ssi so the process was easier for me. Of course there is very little actual money involved to me, mostly medical care, but that is what I needed.

All in all it is a pretty thorough process. I wish we had the United Order now. I know there must be things I can do. Lots of people now are starting writing books with the ebooks available. This is something I have been working on. My brain is sliding though but am giving it a go. :)

[sister_in_faith]

Ugh, anne, i am so sorry about all that. Yeah, my lawyer pulled the, well why don't you tell everyone how you feel about yourself, question, when she knows I'm actively suicidal. Well, that didn't go very well. Anyway, I kind of think it is funny when people talk about other people getting disability when they don't 'deserve' it... Man if everyone has to go thru what I went thru, that doesn't happen very often!

[annewandering]

Ugh, anne, i am so sorry about all that. Yeah, my lawyer pulled the, well why don't you tell everyone how you feel about yourself, question, when she knows I'm actively suicidal. Well, that didn't go very well. Anyway, I kind of think it is funny when people talk about other people getting disability when they don't 'deserve' it... Man if everyone has to go thru what I went thru, that doesn't happen very often!

Walking in others shoes is a pretty good idea even if its just 'virtually'.

[Backroads]

Thanks for replying to me (I really hoped I wouldn't sound rude). And I like the perspective you have provided. I have an aunt who has faked various disabilities and played every trick in the book in the attempt to get on various kinds of assistance, so I suppose I have a hard time respecting it when intellectually I understand the difference between my aunt and legitimate cases.

I suppose what I really hate (and this goes beyond disability) are those that not only don't want to work in the traditional sense but don't want to do anything. I like to image that if I suddenly inherited millions of dollars I would still invest my time in worthwhile causes even if I wasn't "working".

I think it would be nice to have a society where those that can't work in the traditional sense of the word still contribute in other ways.

[sister_in_faith]

Thanks for replying to me (I really hoped I wouldn't sound rude). And I like the perspective you have provided. I have an aunt who has faked various disabilities and played every trick in the book in the attempt to get on various kinds of assistance, so I suppose I have a hard time respecting it when intellectually I understand the difference between my aunt and legitimate cases.

I suppose what I really hate (and this goes beyond disability) are those that not only don't want to work in the traditional sense but don't want to do anything. I like to image that if I suddenly inherited millions of dollars I would still invest my time in worthwhile causes even if I wasn't "working".

I think it would be nice to have a society where those that can't work in the traditional sense of the word still contribute in other ways.

I'm sorry about your aunt... it makes it hard on everyone when you DO have people who try to milk the system.

The hard thing about contributing in other ways, is figuring out HOW to do that!

The only way I can really live with myself right now is knowing that I have done more for society in my 10+ years of working than most people will do in their lifetime. I guess I think that I have paid my dues in many ways. But I still want to get back to it. I think that if I can over come what I'm dealing with then I would be a pretty valuble member of society. I have a skill set that a lot of people don't have. I hope I can use it again someday!

[annewandering]

Thanks for replying to me (I really hoped I wouldn't sound rude). And I like the perspective you have provided. I have an aunt who has faked various disabilities and played every trick in the book in the attempt to get on various kinds of assistance, so I suppose I have a hard time respecting it when intellectually I understand the difference between my aunt and legitimate cases.

I suppose what I really hate (and this goes beyond disability) are those that not only don't want to work in the traditional sense but don't want to do anything. I like to image that if I suddenly inherited millions of dollars I would still invest my time in worthwhile causes even if I wasn't "working".

I think it would be nice to have a society where those that can't work in the traditional sense of the word still contribute in other ways.

It is people like your aunt that really make it hard for everyone. I know people who are bad about that too but not many. One used to watch my husband then go to his docs and imitate what he saw ken do. It was infuriating especially when it worked for the guy. The odd thing is he figured everyone else was like him and faking it. Even those people have little understanding of disabilities.

It would be great to come into millions of dollars. I think about it sometimes and how we would help our kids out. And what would be helping them and not hurting them. There are some problems I would love to be able to contribute to in some meaningful way, for instance studying birth defects and PTSD. There is so much in the world to do but so much does require money.