Questions Regarding Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Etc

[Guest]

I started investigating the church last year in September, and was baptized in October of last year as well. The missionaries insisted that my testimony relied fully on the Book of Mormon being true and whether or not Joseph Smith was a prophet of God. I felt that these things were true, although some say feelings can be pretty subjective. I started researching the Church's early history, the prophet Joseph Smith, and started to look for evidence for the BOM being true, and was totally devastated. I wanted this church to be true so much that I was almost willing to do anything to make it true, even if that meant believing in it even if there was no 'empirical' evidence for me to do so. Now here I am again back at stage 1, not sure what to believe or where to go. I know that God exists, I know that Jesus is God and that the Bible is true, but that leaves me with the BOM, Joseph Smith, and the LDS church. There were also a lot of doctrines that confused me deeply, and the Lord isn't the author of confusion, is He? I also sent a letter of resignation to my bishop at the time, but never received a confirmation letter, are you supposed to if you remove your name from the church records?

[livy111us]

What are your questions? Perhaps we will be able to help answering them. I would also *highly* recommend writing into FAIR at Contacting FAIR. They are a group of scholars and students of the scriptures who specialize in answering concerns about the Church. If you have a question, they will be able to provide several answers.

[Guest]

OK, thanks for the heads up! I had posed two questions at the end of my post: There were also a lot of doctrines that confused me deeply, and the Lord isn't the author of confusion, is He? I also sent a letter of resignation to my bishop at the time, but never received a confirmation letter, are you supposed to if you remove your name from the church records?

And also, what about the claims that I have heard the the BOM plates were not in view throughout the translation of the record? I've read testimonies from David Whitmer and I believe Oliver Cowdery that says he placed a seer stone into a hat and placed his face in the hat and then the words appeared, one character at a time, is this true?

Many people also claim that there is no archeological, linguistic, or any other evidences' that the book of Mormon is true, is there any evidence for it in the above categories I listed?

Those are just a few for now, but I'm sure there are more I can think of. :) Remember, I am an inactive member just trying to get some answers, and I'm not against you and I'm not here to demean or put down the LDS Faith.

[Guest gopecon]

The missionaries were right - if the Book of Mormon is true, then it follows that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. If not, then he was an amazing storyteller/fraud. If Joseph was a prophet, then the Priesthood was restored and the Church he helped to restore is the Lord's church.

If you can list some specific concerns/questions I'm sure that many people here would do their best to answer them.

[Connie]

the Lord isn't the author of confusion, is He?

No. That would be man. You see, everyone comes to the table with their own personal experiences and judgments. That is why there are so many religions to begin with. There are many ways people interpret the Bible.

I also sent a letter of resignation to my bishop at the time, but never received a confirmation letter, are you supposed to if you remove your name from the church records?

I believe so.

[Guest]

The missionaries were right - if the Book of Mormon is true, then it follows that Joseph Smith was a Prophet of God. If not, then he was an amazing storyteller/fraud. If Joseph was a prophet, then the Priesthood was restored and the Church he helped to restore is the Lord's church.

If you can list some specific concerns/questions I'm sure that many people here would do their best to answer them.

And also, what about the claims that I have heard the the BOM plates were not in view throughout the translation of the record? I've read testimonies from David Whitmer and I believe Oliver Cowdery that says he placed a seer stone into a hat and placed his face in the hat and then the words appeared, one character at a time, is this true?

Many people also claim that there is no archeological, linguistic, or any other evidences' that the book of Mormon is true, is there any evidence for it in the above categories I listed?

[Guest gopecon]

I'll try to help with your questions.

No, God is not the author of confusion, but I'd be careful about taking any mix up as a message that God is not there. We are all capable of getting mixed up from time to time. I'd bet that with more information your confusion could be addressed.

I don't know about a confirmation letter. You could contact your local ward to find out if your name is still on the records or not.

I'm not sure about the process of translation. I think it was done differently at different times. For me the answer is that if it came from God, I don't care how he got it. I think there were times in the process that Joseph had the Spirit with his so strongly that he didn't need to look at the plates. Not a problem here - he was not a scholar but someone who claimed the God had helped him to translate the record.

As to archeological and linquistic evidence for the BofM. Yes there is some. We may not know exact city locations by name, but there are plenty of ruins in Central and South America. There are also middle eastern language patterns (chiasmus for one) in the BofM. If you want more information on this I would go to FARMS for FAIR for more info. They have scholarly reports detailing these things.

[Connie]

Here are some links to FAIR. They are the pages for the topics Book of Mormon and Joseph Smith since that is where your concerns lie. On the Book of Mormon page you will find some stuff on archaeology and the Book of Mormon. On the Joseph Smith page, there is some material about seer stones. It should be a good place to start.

FAIR Topical Guide: Book of Mormon <----Book of Mormon page

FAIR Topical Guide: Smith, Joseph <----Joseph Smith page

[livy111us]

Yes, this is exactly what FAIR does. Drop them a note and see what they have to say. In the meantime, here is my opinion.

No evidence for The Book of Mormon is something that critics say on a constant basis, but very few actually keep up with BOM evidences. There is actually quite a bit. By admitting any evidences would not help their cause so you will never hear anything but negative comments from them.

Linguist Brian Stubbs has found that the Uto-Aztecan language family was heavily influenced by Hebrew and Egyptian, the two languages mentioned in The Book of Mormon. You can read about it here:

http://www.fairlds.org/FAIR_Conferences/2006-Brian-Stubbs.pdf

There is quite a bit of evidence for The Book of Mormon. It is such a broad topic, I'll point you to a few resources. If you'd like specific evidences, let me know. Many of these links are entire books but there is so much out there, it may be good to familiarize yourself with some of the evidences. But, since we don't know 100% of any culture, and God does, we rely on his answers to our prayers for truth. Evidences are nice, but should not be relied on for absolute truth, that only comes from God.

Mormon Truth and Book of Mormon Evidences: Not Proof, But Indications of Plausibility

Daniel C. Peterson: "Evidences of the Book of Mormon"

Echoes and Evidences of the Book of Mormon by Donald W. Parry, Daniel C. Peterson, and John W. Welch

Rediscovering the Book of Mormon by John L. Sorenson, and Melvin J. Thorne

Reexploring the Book of Mormon by John W. Welch

Since Cumorah by Hugh W. Nibley

The Book of Mormon and Other Hidden Books: Out of Darkness Unto Light by John A. Tvedtnes

The World and the Prophets by Hugh W. Nibley

Warfare in the Book of Mormon by William J. Hamblin, and Stephen D. Ricks

Book of Mormon Authorship Revisited: The Evidence for Ancient Origins by Noel B. Reynolds

An Approach to the Book of Mormon by Hugh W. Nibley

Book of Mormon Authorship: New Light on Ancient Origins by Noel B. Reynolds, and Charles D. Tate

Chiasmus in Antiquity by John W. Welch

In regards to the translation process, Brant Gardner has just wrote a wonderful book and most exhaustive look on the subject to date. It is called "The Gift and Power" Amazon.com: The Gift and Power: Translating the Book of Mormon (Part 1) eBook: Brant A. Gardner: Kindle Store

I have a transcript of a lecture he gave on the translation process that is not posted on the internet (yet) that I can send you if you message me an email I can send it to. Here is a great article on the subject:

Joseph the Seer--or Why Did He Translate With a Rock in His Hat?

Truth be told, there are differing accounts on how he translated the plates. The only description from Joseph Smith that we have on the translation is that it was done "By the gift and power of God."\

I know I've flooded you with resources, but if you like to study, you will begin to have a grasp on why scholars with Phd's and know every nook and cranny of Church History, still have a strong testimony of the Gospel. Please let me know if I've answered you question or if you have any additional questions.

[Tyler90AZ]

I've went through a faith crisis like yours before and I understand where your coming from. Think about the spiritual and practical benefits of being a member of the church. There are many in each category. You loved the church, think about why you loved the church and regain that. I am currently reading Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith. It is a book with his teachings verbatim. Also go to The Joseph Smith Papers you will learn a lot about Joseph Smith listening to those.

A sample of his teachings

Those Who Endure to the End

That those who keep the commandments of the lord and walk in His statues to the end, are the only individuals permitted to sit at this glorious feast is evident from the following items in Paul's last letter to Timothy, which was written just previous to his death,--he says:"I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the lord the righteous Judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love His appearing."NO one who believe the account, will doubt for a moment this assertion of Paul which was made, as he knew, just before e was to take his leave of this world. Though he once, according to his own word, persecuted the Church of God and wasted it, yet after embracing the faith, his labors were unceasing to spread the glorious news: and like a faithful solider, when called to give his life in the cause which he had espoused, he laid it down, as he says, with an assurance of an eternal crown. Follow the labors of this Apostle from the time of his conversion to the time of his death, and you will have a fair sample of industry and patience in promulgating the gospel of Christ. Derided, whipped, and stoned, the moment he escaped the hands of his persecutors he as zealously as ever proclaimed the doctrine of the savior. And all may know that he did not embrace the faith for honor in this life nor for the gain of earthly goods. What, then, could have induced him to undergo all this toil? It was, as he said, that he might obtain the crown of righteousness from the hand of God. No one we presume will doubt the faithfulness of Paul till the end. None will say that he did not keep the faith, that he did not fight the good fight, that he did not preach and persuade to the last. And what was he to receive? A crown of righteousness. And what shall others receive who do not labor faithfully, and continue to the end? We have such to search out their own promises if any they have, and if they have any they are welcome to them, on our part, for the lord says all men are suppose to receive according to his works. Reflect for a minute, brethren, and enquire whether you would receive yourself worthy to receive a seat at the marriage feast with Paul and others like him, if you had been unfaithful? Had you not fought the good fight, and kept the faith, could you expect to receive? Have you a promise of receiving a crown of righteousness from the hand of the lord with the Church of the Firstborn? here then, we understand that Paul rested his hope in Christ, because he had kept the faith, and love His appearing and from his hand he had a promise of receiving a crown of righteousness.

[Guest]

Thanks to everyone's replies so far, I appreciate it a lot. I guess I have come to a huge conflict in my life at this point in time. I suffer from severe anxiety and depression, not that that is an excuse to anything, I was just saying. I have gone from being a Christian, firm in the faith, to being a non-believer and then to converting to the LDS Church. I honestly admit to all of you that not all of the doctrines or teachings make sense to me, and not even how the BOM came about or how it was translated maybe doesn't even make that much sense to me. Even the story of Joseph Smith has conflicting stories. (You have non-LDS sources saying he was a liar, deceiver, wrote the BOM, cheated on his wife, etc etc the list goes on), (and then you have the LDS sources that say he was a great and benevolent man who restored Christ's Church to the earth and that he translated the BOM by the power of God). So which am I supposed to believe? Or where am I suppose to go from here? I took it to God in prayer last night and felt peace, but I don't know if that is the answer I'm supposed to be expecting? I don't know, I guess I'm just way too confused. :\

[Tyler90AZ]

I went through a similar thing recently. As recent as a month ago I was questioning the truth of the gospel. Upon my return I like you have had a strong desire to know more about Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith has made mistakes like any man would. It is not rare for a man called by God to make mistakes. Did Paul not make mistakes? He murdered innocent believers yet God still called him. I have come to believe that Joseph Smith was a great man called of God. If your faith crisis is based on rather Joseph Smith was a good man dig into his life and teachings. It is important to note that the people who say Joseph Smith is a bad man have a lot to lose if he is a prophet of God.

Joseph Smith says it best in one of his reflections:

Friday November, 6 --- At home.

Attended school during school hours, returned and spent the evening at home. I was this morning introduced to a man from the east. After hearing my name, he remarked I was nothing but a man indicating by this expression, that he had supposed that a person to whom the lord should see fit to reveal His will, must be something more then a man. He seemed to have forgot the saying that fell from the lips of St.James, that Elias was a man subject to like passions like we are, yet he had such power with God, that he, in answer to his prayers, shut the heavens that they gave no rain for the space of three years and six months; and again, in answer to his prayer, the heavens gave forth rain, and the earth gave forth fruit. Indeed, such is the darkness and ignorance of this generation, that they look upon it as incredible that a man should have any intercourse with his maker.

Listen to this talk about the Book of Mormon it is extremely powerful.

Safety for the Soul - general-conference

[Guest]

Thanks for your post Tyler. I love that talk from Elder Holland. Here is another great one about the Prophet Joseph Smith. Joseph Smith?Prophet of the Restoration - general-conference

[NeuroTypical]

Even the story of Joseph Smith has conflicting stories. (You have non-LDS sources saying he was a liar, deceiver, wrote the BOM, cheated on his wife, etc etc the list goes on), (and then you have the LDS sources that say he was a great and benevolent man who restored Christ's Church to the earth and that he translated the BOM by the power of God). So which am I supposed to believe?

While it is true that you can learn something about a man from his enemies, you can also learn about someone from his friends.

Historical records are always incomplete and difficult. However, those who knew Joseph the best, those who were closest to him, were pretty much his strongest defenders and his closest friends. The source of much of the personal criticisms of him, spring from people in other churches (who were in danger of losing members), and people who wanted him out of the way (so they could profit from kicking mormons off the land they'd developed and buying/stealing it from them).

[Elphaba]

Even the story of Joseph Smith has conflicting stories. (You have non-LDS sources saying he was a liar, deceiver, wrote the BOM, cheated on his wife, etc etc the list goes on), (and then you have the LDS sources that say he was a great and benevolent man who restored Christ's Church to the earth and that he translated the BOM by the power of God).

While it is obviously true numerous non- and ex-LDS believe Joseph was the liar and deceiver you describe above, many other non-believers think that is far too simplistic an explanation and way off the mark. I'm specifically thinking of Dan Vogel, who wrote the book Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet. Vogel posits that while Joseph was not the prophet he claimed to be, he, nevertheless, literally believed himself to be. Vogel coined the phrase “pious fraud” to describe Joseph's sincere belief that God had called him to restore the one true church, and that he, therefore, sometimes felt justified to use deceit to bring this about.

From the book:

To my mind, the most obvious solution . . . is to suggest that Smith was a well intentioned “pious deceiver” or, perhaps otherwise worded, a “sincere fraud,” someone who prevaricated for “good” reasons. Admittedly, the terms are not entirely satisfying. Nevertheless, “pious” connotes genuine religious conviction, while I apply “fraud” or “deceiver” only to describe some of Smith’s activities. I believe that Smith believed he was called of God, yet occasionally engaged in fraudulent activities in order to preach God’s word as effectively as possible. Robert N. Hullinger, a Lutheran minister, argued similarly in his 1980 book, Mormon Answer to Scepticism: Why Joseph Smith Wrote the Book of Mormon. Responding in part to [Jan] Shipps, Hullinger plumbed Smith’s motives for writing the Book of Mormon by examining its rhetoric and concluded: “Joseph Smith … regarded himself as [a] defender of God.” “Even if one believes that Joseph Smith was at best a scoundrel,” he observed, “one still must account for the Book of Mormon.” Indeed, the book’s religious appeal—its defense of God, Jesus, spiritual gifts, call to repentance—argues against presuming that Smith’s motives were wholly self-serving.

I am an ex-member, and while I don’t agree with each of Vogel’s conclusions, in general I subscribe to his position. I believe Joseph was a genuinely good and decent man who dedicated and gave his life to the creation of the LDS Church because he literally believed God had called him to do so. His piety was authentic and his sacrifices were numerous. Once a person, be it a believer or the most-bitter ex-believer, has read Joseph's writings plus those of the people who knew him best, I don't see how it's possible to conclude he was lying.

So, beliefs about Joseph, his motivations and his actions are not so black and white as many, believers and non, intimate; rather, they span a very wide spectrum.

Elphaba

[Guest]

While it is obviously true numerous non- and ex-LDS believe Joseph was the liar and deceiver you describe above, many other non-believers think that is far too simplistic an explanation and way off the mark. I'm specifically thinking of Dan Vogel, who wrote the book Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet. Vogel posits that while Joseph was not the prophet he claimed to be, he, nevertheless, literally believed himself to be. Vogel coined the phrase “pious fraud” to describe Joseph's sincere belief that God had called him to restore the one true church, and that he, therefore, sometimes felt justified to use deceit to bring this about.

From the book:

I am an ex-member, and while I don’t agree with each of Vogel’s conclusions, in general I subscribe to his position. I believe Joseph was a genuinely good and decent man who dedicated and gave his life to the creation of the LDS Church because he literally believed God had called him to do so. His piety was authentic and his sacrifices were numerous. Once a person, be it a believer or the most-bitter ex-believer, has read Joseph's writings plus those of the people who knew him best, I don't see how it's possible to conclude he was lying.

So, beliefs about Joseph, his motivations and his actions are not so black and white as many, believers and non, intimate; rather, they span a very wide spectrum.

Elphaba

Thank you for your post. So why did you leave the church? Is it your belief that Joseph was a prophet? Do you believe he wrote the BOM or that he really translated it by the power of God? Sorry for the questions, just interested in a non-believer's perspective. :)

[Elphaba]

Thank you for your post. So why did you leave the church? Is it your belief that Joseph was a prophet? Do you believe he wrote the BOM or that he really translated it by the power of God? Sorry for the questions, just interested in a non-believer's perspective. :)

For reasons I've explained in the message, I have sent you a PM answering your questions, so look in your inbox.

Elph

[Tyler90AZ]

ChristTheTruth, in the end you have the ability to discover if this church is true or not. Do not rely on what Joseph Smith's enemies or friends say, discover truth for yourself. For this truth is a glorious thing that has blessings unimaginable. "so great were the blessings of the Lord," 1 Ne. 17:2. "if ye will hearken … I leave unto you a blessing," 2 Ne. 1:28. I know it is a tough thing to pull out of the darkness, that may have the appearance of light, for you have grown accustomed to it. However, like you said in your first post you loved the church and believed it, but then you read some things about Joseph Smith you didn't like. Would it be reasonable to say that is your persecution? It is tough to overcome persecution, but didn't Jesus overcome persecution greater then any man ever will? You like me can overcome your time away from church and return to receive all the blessings.

I say everything above from experience.

No Man Without Faults

The Prophet Joseph Smith

Although I do wrong, I do not the wrongs i am charged with doing; the wrong that I do is through the frailty of human nature, like other men. No men lives without fault. Do you think that even Jesus, if he were here, would be without fault in your eyes? His enemies said all manner of evil against him -- they all watched for iniquity in him. How easy was it for Jesus to call out all the iniquity of the hearts of those whom he was among!

Returning Home - general-conference

[NeuroTypical]

I am not fond of the Vogel book, for reasons that this book review touches on. He starts from the position of the athiest - there is no such thing as a possibility that Joseph actually saw God and Jesus. Everything in his book follows from that premise.

I prefer Bushman's book Rough Stone Rolling, which is pretty well regarded by both critic and believer alike.