General Questions for Mormons...

[ChristianT]

From what I understand of the LDS church and mormonism, Jesus Christ was the literal son of God, and not God himself (as trinitarian Christians believe)

So is Jesus divine? Or was/is he a man? Is the Holy Spirit not God either? What do you think, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," means? Is the Word, a.k.a. Scriptures, a.k.a. the Bible God? How can written words be God? Do you interpret the Word to Be Jesus? Why/Why not? If not Jesus, who is the "Word?"

Also, on a slightly related note, how do you judge revelations? Since Joseph Smith had the first church-changing revelation, then some congregations voted racism/slavery out of the church later because of "revelations," what do you judge the revelations on?

Does it say something about it in the Book of Mormon? Why should we believe Joseph? Don't you think he'd write a book justifying his revelations. If I said I heard God speaking to me, and I wrote some books about it based somewhat on the Scripture, how am I not to be believed, but Joseph was/is?

Thank you.

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Formed by God, deformed by Satan, transformed by Christ

[Dravin]

So is Jesus divine? Or was/is he a man? Is the Holy Spirit not God either? What do you think, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," means? Is the Word, a.k.a. Scriptures, a.k.a. the Bible God? How can written words be God? Do you interpret the Word to Be Jesus? Why/Why not? If not Jesus, who is the "Word?"

The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost are all God. It's just we classify them as a Godhead united in purpose as opposed to united in substance.

Also, on a slightly related note, how do you judge revelations? Since Joseph Smith had the first church-changing revelation, then some congregations voted racism/slavery out of the church later because of "revelations," what do you judge the revelations on?

Our own personal revelation.

Why should we believe Joseph?

Because of personal revelation confirming his teachings and calling.

Don't you think he'd write a book justifying his revelations.

Which is why it's critical to determine the truthfulness of his revelations instead of some sort of reasoning based on "he has claimed revelations and he wrote them down, he must be a prophet".

If I said I heard God speaking to me, and I wrote some books about it based somewhat on the Scripture, how am I not to be believed, but Joseph was/is?

Personal revelation. Same way one believes Moses or John.

[Guest gopecon]

Jesus is divine. He was the God of the Old Testament, as He said in the NT. The Holy Ghost is also a divine personage with a spirit body. Together the three for the Godhead in LDS speak. Three distinct beings that are perfectly united in purpose.

Revelations can be judged based on a few things. For one, we can pray about them to seek confirmation from God. I've done this regarding the Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon and can testify that he was called of God and that the BofM is true. Now that the Church of Jesus Christ is on the Earth, revelations for the world are going to come through the living prophet, not some random person (no offense) out there. Revelations to someone are only to be binding on those for whom they have stewardship.

[john doe]

Does it say something about it in the Book of Mormon? Why should we believe Joseph? Don't you think he'd write a book justifying his revelations. If I said I heard God speaking to me, and I wrote some books about it based somewhat on the Scripture, how am I not to be believed, but Joseph was/is?

Thank you.

You mean like Joseph Smith?History 1  ?

Or Doctrine and Covenants ?

Or do you mean other writings and teachings that have come from him? Joseph wrote, spoke, and taught about his revelations many,many times.

[john doe]

Also, on a slightly related note, how do you judge revelations? Since Joseph Smith had the first church-changing revelation, then some congregations voted racism/slavery out of the church later because of "revelations," what do you judge the revelations on?

I'm not sure what you mean here. Care to elaborate?

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

On the surface, Mormons believe in the Trinity and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It's when you delve deeper into how they define the Trinity that marked deviations from Christian orthodoxy emerge. To them God is a progression, not an eternal state of being. Heaveny Father was once a man and became God. With a heavenly mother, he had children, one of which was Jesus and the other Lucifer. Jesus attained the exalted state of godhood, Lucifer did not. Mormons also believe that we too can achieve godhood in eternity.

Obviously I disagree, but I was hoping one of the LDS members on this board would go further into detail on the issue of the Trinity. I apologize if I've misstated any Mormon belief and invite you to correct me where I'm wrong. But given the variances in details, the LDS church believes in a very different Trinity than the one historically and traditionally upheld by the Catholic Church.

The fact that Jesus is the Son of God and God Incarnate when he was crucified for sins, regardless of how Jesus attained that state is important, in my opinion, in my search for common ground with Mormons. They believe with us that Jesus died for our sins so that we may go to heaven. How important the deviations are is subject to varying opinions, some strongly held. My opinion is that it's not so important.

[annewandering]

On the surface, Mormons believe in the Trinity and baptize in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. It's when you delve deeper into how they define the Trinity that marked deviations from Christian orthodoxy emerge. To them God is a progression, not an eternal state of being. Heaveny Father was once a man and became God. With a heavenly mother, he had children, one of which was Jesus and the other Lucifer. Jesus attained the exalted state of godhood, Lucifer did not. Mormons also believe that we too can achieve godhood in eternity.

Obviously I disagree, but I was hoping one of the LDS members on this board would go further into detail on the issue of the Trinity. I apologize if I've misstated any Mormon belief and invite you to correct me where I'm wrong. But given the variances in details, the LDS church believes in a very different Trinity than the one historically and traditionally upheld by the Catholic Church.

The fact that Jesus is the Son of God and God Incarnate when he was crucified for sins, regardless of how Jesus attained that state is important, in my opinion, in my search for common ground with Mormons. They believe with us that Jesus died for our sins so that we may go to heaven. How important the deviations are is subject to varying opinions, some strongly held. My opinion is that it's not so important.

God is God, not a progression. We believe we all progress. We believe we are ALL spirit children of God. Not just Jesus and Lucifer. In fact we believe the spirits who followed Lucifer out of heaven are also our brothers and sisters. Just because they did not make the right choice doesnt change their parentage.

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

God is God, not a progression. We believe we all progress. We believe we are ALL spirit children of God. Not just Jesus and Lucifer. In fact we believe the spirits who followed Lucifer out of heaven are also our brothers and sisters. Just because they did not make the right choice doesnt change their parentage.

You may not like it, but it's a sharp contrast from orthodox Christian belief. God does not progress. "From everlasting to everlasting, you are God." (Ps 90:2) Not only has God been God from eternity past, but so has Jesus who is "the same, yesterday, today, and forever." The belief that God started as a man and progressed to godhood is in error. The same for Jesus.

[bytor2112]

You may not like it, but it's a sharp contrast from orthodox Christian belief. God does not progress. "From everlasting to everlasting, you are God." (Ps 90:2) Not only has God been God from eternity past, but so has Jesus who is "the same, yesterday, today, and forever." The belief that God started as a man and progressed to godhood is in error. The same for Jesus.

We do not believe that God is progressing. As AW stated God is God and NOT a progression.

[annewandering]

It bothers me little when we believe differently than 'orthodox christianity'. We are not and we dont claim to be in the protestant mold. We are in the 'orthodox church' that Christ founded not one some person founded. Why would we even want to be in any but God's church?

As far as God progressing well He does. Sorry, Bytor. We are told over and over if we do not progress we fall back and we know for sure God is not falling back anywhere. Nevertheless God is not a progression.

[bytor2112]

As far as God progressing well He does. Sorry, Bytor. We are told over and over if we do not progress we fall back and we know for sure God is not falling back anywhere.

Source? Here is one from Elder McConkie:

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

This is false-utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.

God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply-not in the sense that he learn new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

[annewandering]

Source? Here is one from Elder McConkie:

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

This is false-utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.

God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply-not in the sense that he learn new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

Exactly. lol thanks for finding that quote. Progress is on more ways than knowledge or understanding. Let me use an example. Say I am building a house. Now I can know all about building it. I can be perfect in my ability to build it. That doesnt build it. It makes it possible to build it.

Now God knows how and He has perfect ability but He hasnt got any of us settled into the Celestial Kingdom yet but is progressing with that work.

Edited November 26, 2011 by annewandering

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

We do not believe that God is progressing. As AW stated God is God and NOT a progression.

I'm sorry but you're wrong. You should better aquaint yourself with your own faith.

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp.345-346.

[Vort]

I'm sorry but you're wrong. You should better aquaint yourself with your own faith.

Oh, the irony!

[bytor2112]

I'm sorry but you're wrong. You should better aquaint yourself with your own faith.

Um...no..YOU are wrong and I am well acquainted with our beliefs. Elder McConkie explains this quite well:

Heresy one: There are those who say that God is progressing in knowledge and is learning new truths.

This is false-utterly, totally, and completely. There is not one sliver of truth in it. It grows out of a wholly twisted and incorrect view of the King Follett Sermon and of what is meant by eternal progression.

God progresses in the sense that his kingdoms increase and his dominions multiply-not in the sense that he learn new truths and discovers new laws. God is not a student. He is not a laboratory technician. He is not postulating new theories on the basis of past experiences. He has indeed graduated to that state of exaltation that consists of knowing all things and having all power.

[bytor2112]

Oh, the irony!

Indeed.

[Captain_Curmudgeon]

Here's something I got as a student at BYU:

Heresy zero: Believing that Bruce R. McConkie is scripture.

[annewandering]

Here's something I got as a student at BYU:

Heresy zero: Believing that Bruce R. McConkie is scripture.

He may not be scripture but he was a very intelligent man, as well as spiritual, so going to him for his thoughts makes a lot of sense.

[bytor2112]

Here's something I got as a student at BYU:

Heresy zero: Believing that Bruce R. McConkie is scripture.

Humorous....but know one has claimed his comments or works as "scripture". Oh wait....it should be noted that much of his work can be found in the Standard works. So, while not scripture...it is often used to explain scripture.

[bytebear]

God is progressing. Every time I learn something new, God progresses. He doesn't progress in a vacuum. He progresses through us. When we progress, He progresses. We are his progression.

[bytebear]

So is Jesus divine? Or was/is he a man? Is the Holy Spirit not God either? What do you think, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," means? Is the Word, a.k.a. Scriptures, a.k.a. the Bible God? How can written words be God? Do you interpret the Word to Be Jesus? Why/Why not? If not Jesus, who is the "Word?"

Jesus is divine. But he is clearly the Word spoken of in John 1:1. Keep reading the chapter.

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.

...

14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

Even in Orthodoxy, the Godhead is described as the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit.

The Word is not scripture. Scriptures is a record and witness to the Word.

[bytor2112]

God is progressing. Every time I learn something new, God progresses. He doesn't progress in a vacuum. He progresses through us. When we progress, He progresses. We are his progression.

Just for clarity's sake....God is not progressing toward becoming god...HE is God. He is not still learning new Eternal truths.....

[Mamas_Girl]

So is Jesus divine? Or was/is he a man?

He was the son of God and mortal Mary. His mortal body gave him the ability to die.

We do not believe in the Trinity like most churches, but we believe in the Godhead. The Father, Son and Holy Ghost being three distinct personages who are one in purpose.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God," means?

We believe that the Word was Jesus Christ. He was the Word, in that it was he whom the scriptures foretold of his birth, ministry, death, and resurrection. We believe that in the beginning he was with the Father as a spirit.

Also, on a slightly related note, how do you judge revelations? Since Joseph Smith had the first church-changing revelation, then some congregations voted racism/slavery out of the church later because of "revelations," what do you judge the revelations on?

While I don't agree with the 19th century attitude on racism; I also do not believe that we can judge the past by today's standards. That being said, yes the church was racist, but so were most Americans at that time. I do not believe that the Church was as strongly into slavery as many other Protestant religions were. The Methodists had a big schism over slavery in 1844 splitting into the Methodist Episcopal South, pro-slavery and the MEN anti-slavery, the Southern Baptists split off from the Baptist church in 1845, again pro-slavery, and even the Presbyterians split on the issue the New School in 1857 and the Old School in 1861. I'm not saying this to justify what the LDS Church did, but I'm just saying that the 19th century was an entirely different place than the world we live in today. And most churches don't dwell on this issue, as we've all moved on.

Don't you think he'd write a book justifying his revelations.

Do you mean like the Doctrine and Covenants? We also have the Teachings of Joseph Smith.

[Mamas_Girl]

God is progressing. Every time I learn something new, God progresses. He doesn't progress in a vacuum. He progresses through us. When we progress, He progresses. We are his progression.

I wonder if rather than saying God progresses we should say his plan progresses. The Father is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

Edited November 26, 2011 by Mamas_Girl
forgot to put an end quote thingy in there. ;-)

[Saintmichaeldefendthem1]

I wonder if rather than saying God progresses we should say his plan progresses. The Father is omnipotent, omnipresent and omniscient.

Your statement is well in line with what Christians believe, but not what Mormons believe. Unfortunately Bytor is engaged in the impossible task of making Joseph Smith's words go away. No matter how it's flowered up, the belief entails God in a diminished state eventually attaining the state he is in today. First to the fact that God, existing outside of time, cannot be subject to the laws of sequence. If time and sequence govern God, then God is not omnipotent. If God were once a mortal man then God is not omnipresent. And if God had to progress in knowledge then he is not omnicient. And finally, if God's plan progresses and is not predetermined from the foundation of the world, then God is not sovereign.