Article 7: Are Mormons Pentecostal?

[Dr T]

Hey P.C.,

You mean like deja vu?

Hey P.C.,

You mean like deja vu?

[Ray]

I'm suddenly having this overwhelming sensation of deja vu. Is it just me?

[prisonchaplain]

Quick test of PC's listening skills:

1. Most LDS consider the gift of tongues to mean an experience of understanding, speaking, or otherwise communicating in a unlearned an non-venacular language. Such experience may happen with some frequency to some, and happen on rare occasions to many.

2. Ray reminds us that he will not believe any of us, unless God confirms the truth of the information first. Further, he reminds the non-LDS faction here that he knows stuff we don't know.

3. Some believe that the type of tongues spoken by pentecostals is not of God, and therefore may either simply be manufactured by the speaker, or may be inspired by ungodly sources (i.e. Satan).

4. LDS and pentecostals share a desire to live in the presence of God's Spirit, and a willingness to rely on subtle spiritual communication. However, this similarity should not be overdrawn. While there are a few accounts of 'ecstatic experiences in the Spirit,' such are not common, and are met mostly with skepticism.

[Guest ApostleKnight]

You rundown of the thread thus far is accurate in my mind PC. Especially #2 on your list.

As for the deja vu thing...ever heard of:

Dijon vu?

It's the same mustard as before.

Bwahahahahahahaha.

[Dr T]

LOL

[Ray]

Heh, you people can give me a hard time as much as you want.

I really don't care what you think. :)

Oh, and Tommy, you neglected to mention what YOU did, and what YOU said.

I find all of this attention very flattering, though ... but flattery gets you nowhere with me...

... because...

... say it with me now...

... I really don't care what you think...

... whether you speak in my tongue or any other tongue...

... I really don't care what you think...

... unless I know you are speaking for God...

... and I will know that by an assurance from God.

(edited to add some more details about what I know about how to know what God thinks or says to me)

[prisonchaplain]

You rundown of the thread thus far is accurate in my mind PC. Especially #2 on your list. As for the deja vu thing...ever heard of: Dijon vu? It's the same mustard as before. Bwahahahahahahaha.

Poor, poor uncaffeinated LDS comedians...reduced to mustard jokes. My heart bleeds for you!

[Princess3dward]

Dijon vu?

It's the same mustard as before.

Bwahahahahahahaha.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

Poor, poor uncaffeinated LDS comedians...reduced to mustard jokes. My heart bleeds for you!

Our jokes are great!!!!

[Serg]

Ray:

you said "I can simply ask God to tell me the truth. I really don't care what you think... enough to accept what you are saying is true.

Yes. And my noggin tells me that what you say is what YOU think. When I want to know truth, I'll ask God."

But God seems to think otherwise(did He not tell you that in one of your too often conversations?) see here : "seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith" D&C.109:7, You see Ray, these "best books"are not scripture, buut HUMAN books, that are consider GOOD and BEST by the Lord Himself, books concerning wisdom, of what? of studies, debates, discussions, obviously of things that are NOT too "obvious" or contained in Scripture OR included in your daily conversations with Him.

Also " be instructed more perfectly in theory, in principle, in doctrine, in the law" and in every other aspect of teh World, its "news"its wars, its teachings, its "discoveries", and notice, "discoveries"are not those contained in "empiric science" but also there ARE(even more useful than science) NEW discoveries in PHILOSOPHY , THEOLOGY< and many more fields!

Hence, it is God's will, that you SHOULD pay attention to what prisonchaplain here has to say, or even what other people write, how acceptable will be unto the Lord that you having the chance of learning and ALL eternal Truth out of the books or knowledge of people, did not, because you "didnt care"about what they had to say, but that you : talked'to Him often and that was enough?

Dont ignore somebody's argument just because it conflicts with your view of thngs and you need to solve it with "is enough for me to ask God". Well, you know what? I have not ever had a "words"conversation with the Lord since...1987, yupo, a year BERFORE i was born. Mostly, every truth revealed by Him to me since birth, has been through His "small voice", but mingled greatly with the "wisdom" that the great books can bring. Indeed, the "small"voice can do nothing but CONFIRM unto you a truth, yes! a truth that had ALREADY been VERBALLY explained to you (WITH reason, mind, wisdom, etc...) , to illustrate, lets take a look towards the Lds manuals of institue, of the New Testament and Old Testament courses. What do we find? Do we find in every "technical" question(places, proofs, names, etc.,.) a quote out of one of the Leader's conversations with God asking Him concerning it? No, we find quotes of every other GOOD commentary of other christians and philosophers, why do you think that is?

Regards,

See

[Ray]

Yes, I see what you are saying, Serg, but I do not agree with all of your thoughts.

But you can now think whatever you want to think. I really don't care what you think.

And I really don't care if you don't want to know what I think, I'm going to share a bit with you anyway.

Here are your thoughts of some of Joseph Smith's thoughts which you think were inspired by God:

But God seems to think otherwise(did He not tell you that in one of your too often conversations?) see here : "seek ye diligently and teach one another words of wisdom; yea, seek ye out of the best books words of wisdom, seek learning even by study and also by faith" D&C.109:7, You see Ray, these "best books"are not scripture, buut HUMAN books, that are consider GOOD and BEST by the Lord Himself, books concerning wisdom, of what? of studies, debates, discussions, obviously of things that are NOT too "obvious" or contained in Scripture OR included in your daily conversations with Him.

Did God say, through Joseph Smith, we should teach each other words of wisdom?

Yes. I know God really did...

Did God say, through Joseph Smith, we should seek wisdom from the best books available to us?

Yes. I know God really did...

Did God say, through Joseph Smith, we should seek learning by study and faith?

Yes. I know God really did...

Now,

Did God say, as you are now telling us, that the "best books"are not scripture, but HUMAN books?

No...

... and I really don't care what you think.

[Ray]

Heh... another comment... one I'll address... to give you my thoughts.

... the "small"voice can do nothing but CONFIRM unto you a truth, yes! a truth that had ALREADY been VERBALLY explained to you (WITH reason, mind, wisdom, etc...)

That may all that happens to YOU when YOU hear or feel God's "still, small" voice, but it is NOT all that happens to ME. And YOU can feel more... you probably DO feel more... even when you don't drop to your knees.

Anyway, to facilitate what I'd like to share with you, Serg, I'd appreciate it if you'd answer a few questions.

What is wisdom, and where (or who) does it come from?

I don't really care, but I'm curious. What do you think?

...to illustrate, lets take a look towards the Lds manuals of institute, of the New Testament and Old Testament courses. What do we find? Do we find in every "technical" question (places, proofs, names, etc.,.) a quote out of one of the Leader's conversations with God asking Him concerning it? No, we find quotes of every other GOOD commentary of other christians and philosophers, why do you think that is?

Heh, I DON'T think that is, Serg. At least not if I understand what you're saying.

In our (LDS) manuals, we quote from people who were inspired by God to reveal His wisdom. We sometimes quote from other christians and people known as philosophers, but only when we know God inspired them. And yes, I know, that isn't always implicitly stated, but we don't teach what we know is false.

You do realize that all wisdom and truth comes from God, don't you?

If not, I will share what I think.

If someone says something true, and knows it is really true, they know that because God inspired them. We learn truth from God, through the "light of Christ", and testimonies from the Holy Ghost, and we gain what is wisdom, not just what is called wisdom, when God inspires us to know our thoughts agree with His.

This is a very basic lesson you should have already heard and accepted as truth, though a testimony you should have received from God. But if you don't know these truths, then just ask God, right now. And you don't have to fall down on your knees. God can hear you even when you're just thinking. You don't have to drop to the floor to say a "formal" prayer. But it could be a good sign. It could show you really know how to know God and do what pleases Him.

[prisonchaplain]

Oh no! It's happened again. That other Ray is back. The one that loves to say he doesn't care what others think, the one that can apprehend everything Serg said, and then, turn on a dime, by misconstruing one point. Serg is only saying that God speaks through others--not only through the Standard Works, and not even only through LDS sources--and certainly not only through direct spiritual conversation.

Nice Ray--the one who tried to love everyone, and encourage others to do likewise--was so much better. The "not listening to you, only to God" Ray is so much more difficult to communicate with. :::SIGH:::

[Serg]

Heh... another comment... one I'll address... to give you my thoughts.

<div class='quotemain'>

... the "small"voice can do nothing but CONFIRM unto you a truth, yes! a truth that had ALREADY been VERBALLY explained to you (WITH reason, mind, wisdom, etc...)

That may all that happens to YOU when YOU hear or feel God's "still, small" voice, but it is NOT all that happens to ME. And YOU can feel more... you probably DO feel more... even when you don't drop to your knees.

Anyway, to facilitate what I'd like to share with you, Serg, I'd appreciate it if you'd answer a few questions.

What is wisdom, and where (or who) does it come from?

I don't really care, but I'm curious. What do you think?

...to illustrate, lets take a look towards the Lds manuals of institute, of the New Testament and Old Testament courses. What do we find? Do we find in every "technical" question (places, proofs, names, etc.,.) a quote out of one of the Leader's conversations with God asking Him concerning it? No, we find quotes of every other GOOD commentary of other christians and philosophers, why do you think that is?

Heh, I DON'T think that is, Serg. At least not if I understand what you're saying.

In our (LDS) manuals, we quote from people who were inspired by God to reveal His wisdom. We sometimes quote from other christians and people known as philosophers, but only when we know God inspired them. And yes, I know, that isn't always implicitly stated, but we don't teach what we know is false.

You do realize that all wisdom and truth comes from God, don't you?

If not, I will share what I think.

If someone says something true, and knows it is really true, they know that because God inspired them. We learn truth from God, through the "light of Christ", and testimonies from the Holy Ghost, and we gain what is wisdom, not just what is called wisdom, when God inspires us to know our thoughts agree with His.

This is a very basic lesson you should have already heard and accepted as truth, though a testimony you should have received from God. But if you don't know these truths, then just ask God, right now. And you don't have to fall down on your knees. God can hear you even when you're just thinking. You don't have to drop to the floor to say a "formal" prayer. But it could be a good sign. It could show you really know how to know God and do what pleases Him.

Ray;

1) You may think that the " best" books ARE Scripture, but Joseph the one who actually had this revelation, thought it not. You cant put your interpretation in the mind of a historical person. The best example is the revelation in D&C concerning ALL apocriphal writtings, that say that OUT of THEM(NOT Scripture) we can gain a LOT of TRUTH.(infact) we know most of them were NOT written by any of the Standard Works authors, so ..??? are you planning to ignore the Lord's, Science's and other people studies' knowledge?

2) I do care for your response, if mine makes you uncomfortable then I wont post it any further. You can cathegorize the act then, as either true consideration(charity) or plain stupidity(pride). You choose, after all, god must tell you so in you 600pm talk.

[Ray]

Oh no! It's happened again. That other Ray is back. The one that loves to say he doesn't care what others think

Heh, it's the same Ray, Tommy. I'm just trying to make a simple point. Once I feel that you get it, once I know you know what I mean, I'll stop telling you what I think about your comments... once I really know you don't expect me in any way whatever to accept what you think and keep saying to me.

the one that can apprehend everything Serg said, and then, turn on a dime, by misconstruing one point.

Oh yeah? Really? Really truly? Is that what you really think I am doing?

Good thing I don't care what you think I am doing. I might get a complex or something.

And btw, if I did misconstrue what Serg said, I'd rather hear from him to know his thoughts.

Serg is only saying that God speaks through others--not only through the Standard Works, and not even only through LDS sources--and certainly not only through direct spiritual conversation.

Oh yeah? Really? Really truly? Is that what you really think Serg was saying?

So you think Serg was in agreement with what I said?

Then why did his post seem to be a correction of my thoughts, as if what I was thinking was wrong?

Nice Ray--the one who tried to love everyone, and encourage others to do likewise--was so much better. The "not listening to you, only to God" Ray is so much more difficult to communicate with. :::SIGH:::

Yeah, a big sigh, and this time, from me. Will you EVER understand what I've said and keep saying???

When God speaks through others, it is God who is speaking.

Get a clue. Buy a vowel. Speak the truth. Speak for God. I know how to know who is really speaking.

[Princess3dward]

Oh yeah? Really? Really truly? Is that what you really think I am doing?

Oh yeah? Really? Really truly? Is that what you really think Serg was saying?

So you think Serg was in agreement with what I said?

Then why did his post seem to be a correction of my thoughts, as if what I was thinking was wrong?

Yeah, a big sigh, and this time, from me. Will you EVER understand what I've said and keep saying???

There seem to be more sarcastic questions than anwsers in alot of your posts....

[Ray]

Ray;

1) You may think that the " best" books ARE Scripture, but Joseph the one who actually had this revelation, thought it not.

Oh yeah? Says who? You? You are simply giving me your interpretation, and I know how to know what God thinks.

You cant put your interpretation in the mind of a historical person.

Sure I can. Just like you did. And by asking God I can know what is true.

The best example is the revelation in D&C concerning ALL apocriphal writtings, that say that OUT of THEM(NOT Scripture)

Okay. Let's cut to the chase. What is YOUR definition of scripture? I'm not saying that I'll accept it. I can also know what is true... regardless of what you may think.

...we can gain a LOT of TRUTH.(infact) we know most of them were NOT written by any of the Standard Works authors, so ..???

Okay. Let me take a little guess here. Are you saying that words aren't scripture unless they're written by the same people who wrote the standard works? Is that your understanding of what scripture is?

I say scriptures are words written by men who were inspired by God... they don't have to be part of our "canon".

... are you planning to ignore the Lord's, Science's and other people studies' knowledge?

Heh, nope. I won't ignore anything I know our Lord inspired... just what I know He didn't inspire.

2) I do care for your response, if mine makes you uncomfortable then I wont post it any further.

Your thoughts do not make me uncomfortable, Serg. I'm saying I don't really care what you think.

And btw, I'm not saying I don't care about YOU. I simply don't care for your thoughts... unless they're God's thoughts... not just yours... and I'll know that.

You can cathegorize the act then, as either true consideration(charity) or plain stupidity(pride). You choose, after all, god must tell you so in you 600pm talk.

Heh, what was that? Did you see it? Was it real? Something just flew right over my head!...

...I really don't know what you just said.

There seems to be more sarcastic questions than anwsers in alot of your posts....

That's a judgment, your judgment, of what you think I am feeling, Desire'.

I'm just being playful. Is that "sarcasm"?

To me "sarcasm" has a negative connotation... and while I'm a little bit frustrated... I feel love.

[prisonchaplain]

Desire: I love the way you pack such wisdom into your seemingly simple observations. :-)

Ray: Serg is making a point, and, I'll admit imho, is using hyberbole. Apparently Joseph Smith made some strong statements about the wisdom to be gained from literature that is not Scripture. By the way, why does this have to be an either/or thing? Can't we have the good and the best and be blessed by both?

As an example, I had an inmate ask me what Jesus thought about taking medicine. BTW, his medicine was for more than physical ailments. I told him that all truth is from God, and if God gave secular doctors the wisdom to develop medicine that would help him, then that medicine was a gift from God. He would insult God not to take it.

Likewise, if God wants to tell you something through the voice of an unwashed heathen (sorry, a little hillbilly Baptist talk there), then you'd best hear it.

On final thought: The louder you protest that you don't care, won't hear, etc., and yet continue the dialogue, the more I think, "Maybe, somewhere deep down inside, God's using me to bless this man." That makes me feel good.

[Ray]

Desire: I love the way you pack such wisdom into your seemingly simple observations. :-)

That wasn't wisdom, Tommy. She made a judgement call... without seeking more understanding... and IM ALWAYS HO, that wasn't wise.

Ray: Serg is making a point, and, I'll admit imho, is using hyberbole. Apparently Joseph Smith made some strong statements about the wisdom to be gained from literature that is not Scripture. By the way, why does this have to be an either/or thing? Can't we have the good and the best and be blessed by both?

Yes, when God inspires us, and we all agree it was God, but not when our "thinking" conflicts.

As an example, I had an inmate ask me what Jesus thought about taking medicine. BTW, his medicine was for more than physical ailments. I told him that all truth is from God, and if God gave secular doctors the wisdom to develop medicine that would help him, then that medicine was a gift from God. He would insult God to not take it.

I agree with your premise... that God inspires men with the ability to develop medicines which can help us take care of our bodies... but I would have told him to ask God how God felt about taking it... I wouldn't have tried to impose my opinion of that medicine on that man.

Likewise, if God wants to tell you something through the voice of an unwashed heathen (sorry, a little hillbilly Baptist talk there), then you'd best hear it.

Let me put it this way:

If God speaks the truth through anyone I can know it is true by asking God.

I wouldn't "just believe" someone, not even an unwashed heathen, who is saying he is speaking for God.

One final thought: The louder you protest that you don't care, won't hear, etc., and yet continue the dialogue, the more I think, "Maybe, somewhere deep down inside, God's using me to bless this man." That makes me feel good.

Heh, oh, that one wins you a prize... a big fat booby prize.

So you're saying that if I were to protest about your claim to be speaking for God... when I know you really are not... my protest, in and of itself, would help you to feel deep down that God really must be using you... because I told you I knew, and still know, He wasn't???

Heh, no wonder it's taking you so long to join the Church... and ask God to tell you more truth!

And btw, Tommy, I love you, man. I hope you don't care TOO MUCH for my thoughts.

[Princess3dward]

She made a judgement call...

...

With all due respect, I did nto mean to be "judgmental".. I just always thought how it was funny how you anwsered everything with more questions....

But aside from the humour of predictability,

I learned sarcasm was a "comunication blocker", meaning that people are bad with responding to it, and most of the time, wither respond rudly because of hurt feelings, or ignore it, and maybe not even respond at all.

I just wanted to bring a little more awareness to the sarcasm. That is all.

By all means, correct me if I am wrong, and I will apologize..

Like I said, I didn't want any hurt feelings....

and I am sure I am not the only one who even just mentally made that "judgment call".

[Ray]

Okay, very briefly now:

When people use "sarcasm" they say something they don't mean, and I meant every thought I was thinking.

Were you thinking that I didn't mean what I wrote down in words, or did you simply not agree with my thoughts?

I do have the right to share what I am thinking, but you may not always know what I mean.

And if you don't agree with what I am trying to share, you know what? I really don't care.

Even though I may care just a teeny tiny itsy little bit, but more often than not, I'm just curious.

The only thoughts I really care about are those that come from God, so if you're not God, I don't care.

So if you think I'm being rude... I don't care.

Or if you think I am wrong... I don't care.

I do care about YOU, but I don't care what you think, unless I know that your thinking is God's.

[Princess3dward]

errr... I ment, by sarcastic questions, that you didn't really want them anwsered.

Most people ask questions because they want anwsers... it was sarcastic, because you didn't....

Am I still confusing?

I am trying so hard to be clear lately...

[Princess3dward]

Also, about the Zion thing..

I was listening to POD, and one of their songs was about Zion... my jaw dropped...

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwn.

Oh, what? Did someone say something of substance?

Gwahahahahaha, j/k...this thread is getting a little stale for my tastes.

p.s. Good point about sarcasm Desire

[Princess3dward]

Yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwn.

Oh, what? Did someone say something of substance?

Gwahahahahaha, j/k...this thread is getting a little stale for my tastes.

p.s. Good point about sarcasm Desire

I think you are super funny....

[Guest MrsS]

Ray,

Desire' was not being judgemental as I see it - she stated a fact.

In my opinion, you ARE getting sarcastic, rude and just plain boring, you are also conceited to say the least.

You say the same thing over and over again. I know I am right, I know God - na na na na na na! AAAANNNNNDDDD I know how you can find oooouuuuut - la lala la la la - na, na, na,na,na, naaaa.

In regards to your responses: you are smug, smart-aleckey, conceited, and need to stop!

You go to far in your responses - you repeat way too much. Cut your responses down to just one version of an explanation. This In Other Words has gotten way out of hand.

I am a very faithful LDS. I "hear" the still small voice of the Holy Ghost - and I do my utmost to heed it. I sure don't need to have you repeat your mantra again, and again, and again, and again, and again, and again. I can and do know what the non-LDS feel like when you do this to them.

So Ray, please - cool it with the repetitious responses,with the multitudes of In Other Words, with the smart-mouth retorts, and with the I know how's. We all know that you know - so enough already!