Holy Ghost

[Princess3dward]

Anyways the truth will be absolute and when you know it through the Holy Ghost, you will have no doubts that it is the truth, not knowledge that could be misunderstood or miscommunicated. Like your example that you (LDS) have a book of Mormon. That is fact and can be prooven without a doubt.

You don't need to pray if we have a book of mormon though...

You need to pray if it is right.

That is truth by the Holy Ghost.

[Moonfire]

<div class='quotemain'>

Anyways the truth will be absolute and when you know it through the Holy Ghost, you will have no doubts that it is the truth, not knowledge that could be misunderstood or miscommunicated. Like your example that you (LDS) have a book of Mormon. That is fact and can be prooven without a doubt.

You don't need to pray if we have a book of mormon though...

You need to pray if it is right.

That is truth by the Holy Ghost.

Good point I wouldn't have to pray to find out if you actually do have the Book of Mormon.

But as far as it being right. I feel it is. And the more I understand the more I will believe. I have prayed for the truth. Why do I believe? I am not sure. I just realized that my human logic and human understanding is not enough to understand godly things. But that is another post.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'> <div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'> When some people say they have knowledge, they sometimes only mean information, but regardless of what words we choose to explain things we need to know what is the truth.

Try thinking of some examples of how you could know about information, but still not really know if the information you had was really some part of the truth… the whole truth and nothing but the whole truth.

I'll give you an example to start off with.

We (LDS) have a Book of Mormon. Is that true? Yes, that's true. We (LDS) DO have a Book of Mormon. Are you going to tell me that we don't?

Heh, just a little lesson on how important it is to use words to try to say what you mean.

When you say you know something, what do you really know, and how do you know what is true?

Okay, your turn.

Give me an example of what you know is the truth, and how you really know it is true, and while you are at it, please also tell me how I can know what you have is the truth.

And btw, this is a test, and only a test. If it was really important for you to know something I'd tell you to ask God what is true. :)

Ok. I think am understanding this.

Lets see. Here is a truth. When I talk on the phone my cat sometimes thinks I am talking to him and starts to meow non stop. The way you can find out is to call me up and hear for yourself. Seven out of ten times that cat will come over and start to meow until I tell him to shut up, and even then he sometimes won't. So calling and hearing this cat will be proof.

I'm sorry, Moonfire. I don't agree... I don't believe you have shared the whole truth. Please don't be offended, I'm not trying to be rude. I simply don't agree with your conclusion.

I might be able to come to the point of agreeing with you on the idea that when you talk on the phone your cat starts to meow, and meows "a lot" while you are on the phone, but I don't think I'd say your cat begins to meow "non-stop". Is he still meowing now? If not, he has stopped. If I saw him not meowing, I'd know that.

I still might not be able to agree that "your cat thinks you are talking to him", though. Maybe he's just meowing because he wants your attention, not because he thinks you're talking to him. Do you really claim to know how your cat thinks???

I could also go on about some of your other comments that I do not agree with right now, but I think you get my point. I do not agree with all you said in your post because I don't know what you said is the truth... the whole truth and nothing but the whole truth.

Hmmm, is the Holy Ghost like the phone that connects you to God so you can feel/hear the truth and connect it with the knowledge or words?

"like the phone"... as in a means of communication with God, you mean? Yes, I can agree with that.

But the Holy Ghost is also God... not just a connection to God... the Holy Ghost is a person who is God...

... and I'm not referring to our Father in heaven or our Lord Jesus Christ, who are God, but not the Holy Ghost.

Heh, and don't get too frustrated when you see you don't know everything... there's a whole LOT to learn about God... and the best way to learn about God is to learn from God and from those God inspires to teach truths. :)

No offense was taken. Actually I am a lot less confused now then I was when I started this post. I do understand what you mean. I think

So the truth I thought I had wasn't actually solid truth. It was the truth as I saw it. So my knowledge/truth/logic was flawed by my own views and prejudices.

So, when the Holy Ghost tells you the truth then it will be from him or God, well since they act as one and are the same..... Ok, let me forget about the godhead for right now, lol.

Anyways the truth will be absolute and when you know it through the Holy Ghost, you will have no doubts that it is the truth, not knowledge that could be misunderstood or miscommunicated. Like your example that you (LDS) have a book of Mormon. That is fact and can be prooven without a doubt.

Ok, maybe I am still a little confused but I am getting a much clearer picture.

If you want to challange any of my other statements, please do. I like to discuss and I don't take things personally when I am wrong or when I don't completely understand something. I haven't met a human yet that is completely right all the time, not even myself.

This is very important for me to understand. So if I don't get it, just knock me in the head a few times until I get it

You're doing fine, Moonfire. And I'm impressed by what I'm learning about YOU. :)

And in fact, I'm so impressed that I'm 99% sure that you will get this.

Change this...

Anyways the truth will be absolute and when you know it through the Holy Ghost, you will have no doubts that it is the truth, not knowledge that could be misunderstood or miscommunicated. Like your example that you (LDS) have a book of Mormon. That is fact and can be prooven without a doubt...

to this...

<strike>Anyways</strike> the truth <is and always> will be absolute, and when you know it <the truth> through <the power of> the Holy Ghost, you will have no doubts that it <the truth> is the truth, not <false> knowledge <or false information or a false idea> that could be <and often is or has been> misunderstood or miscommunicated. Like your example that you (LDS) have a book of Mormon. That is <a> fact <and a truth> and can be proven <or known> without a doubt... <once you know how truth feels as God helps you know how truth feels through the power you can feel from the Holy Ghost.>

... and then you'll know a little more about the truth, as well as the power of God. :)

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

Oh. I think I get it now. In order to sin against the Holy Ghost it is not against the "person" but the truth. And when the Holy Ghost shows you the truth then you will know it more clearly then anything you have ever known. So then, after knowing it and you speak against what you have seen then that is the unforgivable sin. I think I understand this now. Well, do I understand this now from what I explained in this reply?

Pretty much, yes, I say so, except that I would say that you are actually sinning against the Holy Ghost when you deny the truth or a truth the Holy Ghost is telling you or assuring you to be true.

Without the Holy Ghost there is no way to really know if something is really true or really not true... speaking of how we learn things in this world... although the "light of Christ" instructs us sufficiently by giving us an assurance of what our Lord knows is true or right and wrong.

Do you feel what is right? Are you sure it is true? Then give all the glory to God.

You cannot know the truth by simply using logic because other reasons might also be true.

:)

We could develope something out of this.

I agree with you Ray, that it is logically(hey, logic is a gift) that if you sin against the truth you are actually also sinning against the source of it. Hence, sinning against the truth(to you) is the same as sinning(ultimately and only) against the Holy Ghost. Now, I partly agree. I have no intention of contradicting you, just to add my view. I see "God" as twofold. The individual(exalted person), and the Quorum(or Institution) that rules the creation and it's inhabitants(i.e.universe or part of it). When i say lets worship "God" i take it as the Institution, the Governing Body of everything, not only as the Father(although most common belief in the church is that-partly justified). When I speak of "God" told the prophet, I see it as the Body, not as jesus, or teh Father, or the H G. Hence, the Holy Ghost is a conduit to impart truth because he is the only member of teh Godhead that can actually reside withinyou. But the H G as a person is NOT the "Source" of such truth, but the conduit, hence i take it that when you sin against the truth he imparts, you are sinning against Him as conduit, not as a person, but against "God" entirely, the three, for the Truth is not a monopoly of the H G, nor was instituted by Him, or created by him, But the Three accorded what was gonna be considered "Truth" here , and he serves as spokesman(nor will i ever attempt to reduce His ministry to that of a spokesman-that could be a prophet, but just to sinthesize the point). I cannot believe that is because you sin against Him as a person, that it becomes unforgivable, becase that would go to differentiate in an essential way(i.e.intrinsic) the persons of the Godhead. They must all receive same glory, respect and awe. It would then be as much of unforgivable to blasphme against the other two(unless, these others differ essentially-or need less respect). Thus, i conclude, that when you sin "against the Holy Ghost" you are sinning against the Truth imparted by one person of teh Godhead, and are opposing a settled Truth by Three who constitute " God".

(also, we all would do good to stop saying "yes, God and Jesus", but correctly call "God" the Three of them, the Father has no more intrinsic neccesity of being "God' than does the son and teh H G, in fact, if these other two would not integrate th Quorum, Elohim would not be a God in the sense of a governing Quorum, It needs THREE to form a presidency, and as a least, Two-hence one can encarnate himself as the other two remain governing-it takes at least two stars to create an orbit )

Regards,

[Moonfire]

Thank you, actually several thanks are in order. I do understand this now. I also understand what blashpemy against the Holy Ghost means.

For example, Since I have never known the truth (facts) though the Holy Ghost then for me to commit balshpemy would be impossible.

Let me ask this and make sure I understand. If Nephi, after they made it to the new promised land, denied God and spoke against God then he would have been blaspheming against the Holy Ghost becuase he knew the facts and truths. Now I don't mean making human based mistakes and misjudgements, I mean doing something like his brothers did when they left and became like wild men.

I hope I explained that correctly. I have very limited knowledge of the Book of Mormon at this point. But I watched the movie

[Serg]

Thank you, actually several thanks are in order. I do understand this now. I also understand what blashpemy against the Holy Ghost means.

For example, Since I have never known the truth (facts) though the Holy Ghost then for me to commit balshpemy would be impossible.

Let me ask this and make sure I understand. If Nephi, after they made it to the new promised land, denied God and spoke against God then he would have been blaspheming against the Holy Ghost becuase he knew the facts and truths. Now I don't mean making human based mistakes and misjudgements, I mean doing something like his brothers did when they left and became like wild men.

I hope I explained that correctly. I have very limited knowledge of the Book of Mormon at this point. But I watched the movie

Yes, you got it. :)

[Ray]

Since I have never known the truth (facts) though the Holy Ghost then for me to commit balshpemy would be impossible.

If that is true... if the Holy Ghost has never assured you of any truth... then yes, it would be impossible for you to deny the Holy Ghost or what the Holy Ghost told you to be true.

Let me ask this and make sure I understand. If Nephi, after they made it to the new promised land, denied God and spoke against God then he would have been blaspheming against the Holy Ghost because he knew the facts and truths.

Yes, that would be one way Nephi could have denied the Holy Ghost, or what the Holy Ghost assured him (Nephi) was true. But another way would have been for the Holy Ghost to assure Nephi that [something.. a truth] was true and then Nephi just denied that... by saying or thinking that what the Holy Ghost assured him about wasn't true.

Now I don't mean making human based mistakes and misjudgements, I mean doing something like his brothers did when they left and became like wild men.

If Nephi's brothers never had an assurance from the Holy Ghost to assure them of what the Holy Ghost knew to be true, then it also would have been impossible for them (Nephi's brothers) to have denied Him (the Holy Ghost)... they would have never felt the power of the truth through a testimony from the Holy Ghost.

I hope I explained that correctly. I have very limited knowledge of the Book of Mormon at this point. But I watched the movie

Heh, good for you. :)

And btw, I didn't think it was a very good movie. I like the book much, much better. But I would recommend that you see the "Work and the Glory" movies. :)

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

Since I have never known the truth (facts) though the Holy Ghost then for me to commit balshpemy would be impossible.

If that is true... if the Holy Ghost has never assured you of any truth... then yes, it would be impossible for you to deny the Holy Ghost or what the Holy Ghost told you to be true.

Let me ask this and make sure I understand. If Nephi, after they made it to the new promised land, denied God and spoke against God then he would have been blaspheming against the Holy Ghost because he knew the facts and truths.

Yes, that would be one way Nephi could have denied the Holy Ghost, or what the Holy Ghost assured him (Nephi) was true. But another way would have been for the Holy Ghost to assure Nephi that [something.. a truth] was true and then Nephi just denied that... or said (or felt) that what the Holy Ghost assured him wasn't true.

Now I don't mean making human based mistakes and misjudgements, I mean doing something like his brothers did when they left and became like wild men.

If Nephi's brothers never had an assurance from the Holy Ghost to assure them of what the Holy Ghost knew to be true, then it also would have been impossible for them (Nephi's brothers) to have denied Him (the Holy Ghost)... but that would also mean they never felt the power of the truth.

I hope I explained that correctly. I have very limited knowledge of the Book of Mormon at this point. But I watched the movie

Heh, good for you. :)

And btw, I didn't think it was a very good movie. I like the book much, much better. But I would recommend that you see the "Work and the Glory" movies. :)

I never got to see the Work and the Glory movies...

[Ray]

Heh, well then go get 'em. It's not too late. You're not dead yet, you know.

You do know that, don't you, Serg?

And the movies are still out there for you to get if you want to get them.

[Moonfire]

Phew. I finally get this. Cool. Well I have done my thinking for the month. Time to rest the smoking brain.

I am guessing the book IS better then the movie, lol. But the movie did give me a brief glimpse into the book itself. So I ordered one and it will hopefully be sent to me soon. I have the audio files that I downloaded from the lds.org website. So I am listening to them until the Book of Mormon arrives. I also ordered that 29 minute video, I forgot the name of it.

Thanks again everyone. I will also check out that movie you recommended.

[Princess3dward]

I will also check out that movie you recommended.

Mee too!

[Guest ApostleKnight]

So Desire, what do you find confusing about Adam and Eve?

[Brother Dorsey]

Thanks again everyone. I will also check out that movie you recommended.

The movie(s) The work and the Glory 1 and 2 and soon to be 3 come from the 9 volume set by Gerald Lund. (who is now a General Authority in the church) I watched the first movie (excellent) and then had to go and get the books set.....I could not put the books down...fantabulous! It mixes a fictuional family called the Steeds in with actual church history starting before Joseph Smith recieves the gold plates and takes you all the way to the Salt Lake valley. It was the best way for me to learn church history....I would reccommend it to anyone investigating the church or to new mwmbers. The movies however do not do the books justice (as in most cases) as way too much was cut out and the story was changed a little. But the movies were excellently made and wonderfully acted. Jonathan Scarfe a Canadian who played the part of Joseph Smith in the movies was, I believe, inspired becaue he depicted the Prophet as I did in my mind. Just a funny note.....the only actual LDS member in the cast was the girl who played Melissa....either way, as you watch the movies you can feel the Spirit testifying of the truthfulness of the restoration...remarkable.....wonderful. You will enjoy them

[LionHeart]

A personal belief which I have is that the Holy Ghost is not one single personage, but an office held by many personages. A person's guardian angel would be the Holy Ghost assigned to that person.

L.H.

[Serg]

A personal belief which I have is that the Holy Ghost is not one single personage, but an office held by many personages. A person's guardian angel would be the Holy Ghost assigned to that person.

L.H.

Well, i also have my share of speculation(or rather, good logic), i believe that the status of the Holy Ghost is indispensable within a Three Governing Body, hence, in every God institution throughout the universe, one of the Two or Three of each Presidency, there needs to be One incorporeal, and even(as in ours) such being gets(likely-not absoulutely) to get encarnated(for progress), another thus has to replace His incorporeal status within The Three...but that's another LONG topic

<div class='quotemain'>

A personal belief which I have is that the Holy Ghost is not one single personage, but an office held by many personages. A person's guardian angel would be the Holy Ghost assigned to that person.

L.H.

Well, i also have my share of speculation(or rather, good logic), i believe that the status of the Holy Ghost is indispensable within a Three Governing Body, hence, in every God institution throughout the universe, one of the Two or Three of each Presidency, there needs to be One incorporeal, and even(as in ours) such being gets(likely-not absoulutely) to get encarnated(for progress), another thus has to replace His incorporeal status within The Three...but that's another LONG topic In fact, If being incorporeal9as Ray -i think suggests) is the most crucial determination or requisit that defines the behaviour of the holy Ghost(as to reveal in the spirit of men the truth because he can abide there), what about Jesus before he was born? Have any of you thought that if he was incorporeal he could have worked as Holy Ghost

and reside in the people's hearts? eh...ok.Lets leave it there

regards,

[Moonfire]

There is something I use to do. I have studied briefly with Mormons. I have also studied MANY other religions. I use to pick them part and I tried using human logic alone to explain godly things. I recently realized that I was trying to use human logic so much that I was missing all the important things about God.

I won't do that anymore, well I will try and not do that. I still have a hard time in that area. I have to think about things and investigate. It is part of my nature, human nature I guess, to do so but not in an obsessive way. But that is just me and this would make another good post some time.

[Dr T]

Hi moon,

That would make a good thread. You're not advocating for "not using logic with God are you"?

Thanks

[Moonfire]

Hi moon,

That would make a good thread. You're not advocating for "not using logic with God are you"?

Thanks

Not at all. Logic is good, but I think if we focus only on that we will miss the more important things about God.

A balance of Human Logic and..... I guess you could call it Spritual Logic? So a balance of Human Logic and Spiritual Logic. I am not sure if Spiritual logic is the correct wording I am looking for, but I think it is close to what I mean.

I strongly believe that we will be unable to understand everything.

What amazes me is this. I briefly looked into Particle Physics (I am not even close to undestanding it.) But we are all made up of energy. The same material (sub atomic particles, quarks, etc,) make up everything. A desk, computer, human, dog, etc. The further we break down an atom we see that it is more energy then matter.

When we look at a wall we are not seeing the wall. We are seeing photons bouncing off of the wall. Photons alone are amazing. The wall is getting bombed by many photons but we only see a limited number, thus we see the wall, or picture or whatever we are looking at.

This is very cool. (and again I am explaining this in my own limited way, I won't pretend I know a lot about this area.)

The reason I mentioned the above is that we have so many mysteries in this universe it is great. We have learned a lot, and through logic we have understood a lot. But logic alone is not the answer for me. Human science is in its infancy. Our logic is tainted by our personal beliefs, so in reality many times our logic is not 100% pure.

I hope I explained that right, I am busy with a few things and I am more or less typing this fast.

I look forward to more discussions at this forum. If anyone sees that I explained something wrong, just tell me. I don't get offended that easily and I have no problem admiting when I am wrong.

[Dr T]

Thank you Moon,

I have to agree with what I think you are saying. The whole empiricism as "the only true way to knowledge" has many flaws and leaves out other important ways to "know." I didn't think that you were saying "get rid of logic" and I wanted to make sure. Thank you for your thoughts,

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

So Desire, what do you find confusing about Adam and Eve?

I don't understand that, why would God WANT us to take the fruit from the tree.... but... make it a commandment not to?

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

So Desire, what do you find confusing about Adam and Eve?

I don't understand that, why would God WANT us to take the fruit from the tree.... but... make it a commandment not to?

I can agree with the idea that God would have eventually wanted Adam and Eve to take the fruit from the tree of knowledge of good and evil... but until then they should have just done what He said.

It's all going to work out in the end, though. God was already prepared for what happened.

Does God know His kids, or what?!?!! :)

[Dr T]

I don't understand that, why would God WANT us to take the fruit from the tree.... but... make it a commandment not to?

Good question Des. I wonder if God "WANTED" that or just allowed it to happen for a purpose.

[Ray]

I don't understand that, why would God WANT us to take the fruit from the tree.... but... make it a commandment not to?

Good question Des. I wonder if God "WANTED" that or just allowed it to happen for a purpose.

Just a quick point, in case you haven't heard this before:

God always allows us to do ANYTHING... or at least anything we can do, somehow.

It's what we (LDS) refer to as "Agency".

Some people will only learn things the hard way.

And btw, if God had wanted Adam and Eve to take that fruit, at that particular time when they took it, I believe God would not have told them to not take it... but that doesn't mean He wouldn't have let them have it later.

Heh, it's kinda like a piece of good candy, or some other fruit, you try to keep from your kids.

Just because you say No at one time doesn't mean you won't ever them them have any later. :)

[Princess3dward]

Well, another thing. He them on earth KNOWING that they couldn't reproduce unless they broke the commandment.

We decided we were going to come down....

And so he HAD to have known!

It almost feels like a set up to sin... but we arn't supposed to sin...

SEE MY CONFUSION?

[Dr T]

Thanks Ray. Do you know if "the free will defense" is used in LDS circles?

Thank you,

Dr. T