Holy Ghost

[Ray]

Thanks Ray. Do you know if "the free will defense" is used in LDS circles?

Thank you,

Dr. T

Please elaborate. I don't know what you are referring to.

[Dr T]

It has to do with the "problem of evil" and the argument that "because of free choice" it is reasonable to say that there is evil because of humanity not because of God. There's more that goes into it but that is one piece of it.

Thanks

[Ray]

Well, another thing. He them on earth KNOWING that they couldn't reproduce unless they broke the commandment.

We decided we were going to come down....

And so he HAD to have known!

It almost feels like a set up to sin... but we arn't supposed to sin...

SEE MY CONFUSION?

No.

What did you mean by this:

He them on earth KNOWING that they couldn't reproduce unless they broke the commandment.

???

In my opinion, they could have just asked God how they were supposed to fulfill that commandment...

... and then maybe God would have said:

... okay, NOW you can have some of that fruit over there.

They did have that option, you know.

[Gwen]

Desiré,

You will probably learn more about the subject in seminary as you progress, but here is my understanding, take it for what it is worth.

I understood it all to be about agency. what do we really have to give our father? everything i have and am is given through and because of the father. all i have that is truely mine is my agency. that is all i have to offer him. not my will but thine be done. sound familier, will/agency, that is all any of us have to give the father. also if you will recall the chosen plan in the pre existance was about agency. ok, so you can't "recall". lol anyway, satan's plan was to force us to do good and all the glory be his. Jesus said, give them agency, and i will go as a savior for their mistakes (the atonement) and the glory be thine. we chose a plan (again agency is being shown). all peoples on the earth chose to follow the Savior's plan. the only reason satan had followers is because the father allowed agency, he could have "forced" the spirits that followed satan, but didn't. agency is an eternal principle, before this world, in this world, and will continue after. whay would it all be started without it? God could have just put adam and eve here and all would have begun, but where would their agency have gone? adam and eve had to choose to come to this fallen state, that was part of the plan, their agency. that is why partaking of the fruit is refered to as a transgression not a sin.

that is about as simply as i know to put it. i hope this helps.

ALmom

[Ray]

It has to do with the "problem of evil" and the argument that "because of free choice" it is reasonable to say that there is evil because of humanity not because of God. There's more that goes into it but that is one piece of it.

Thanks

Based on that "piece" I think I agree with that concept. :)

[Dr T]

But Ray, have you heard that in LDS circles?

Thanks

[Ray]

Are you asking me if I have ever heard in LDS circles an idea concerning how there is evil because of humanity not because of God?

Yes, Doc. I have, but not in exactly those words.

God didn't create evil, God gave us agency, and when we do something against God it is evil.

[Dr T]

Thank you, Ray. :)

[LionHeart]

I don't understand that, why would God WANT us to take the fruit from the tree.... but... make it a commandment not to?

You are right Des. The very first commandment given them was to be fruitful and multiply. How could they fulfill this commandment without mortal bodies? They needed to eat the fruit in order to gain mortal bodies. They knew this. And God knew this as well. But there are rules in Heaven. God's house is a house of order.

I will liken it to a story about my grandfather. His parents split up and his mother received legal custody of him. His father moved down to central Utah while he and his mother stayed in Salt Lake. He wanted to go live with his father so he wrote his father a letter asking if he could come live with him. His father wrote back, "No, stay with your mother." So he wrote another letter; same answer. Unwilling to accept this answer, he decided to go anyways. He hitch-hiked down to where his father lived and upon arriving, he found that his father had already prepared a place for him to live, and his father asked him: "What took you so long?"

You see, because of legal resons, his father could not tell him to come down, and had to tell him to stay with his mother, but at the same time he wanted him to come down.

The lord's house is a house of order. They have to go by the rules. So when Adam fell from a state of immortality to mortality, he had to go by the rules for such an incident to take place; which, in this case, was acting contrary to the Lord's commandments. What better way to get "kicked out of Heaven" than to disobey instructions. But at the same time, all those involved could see that was neccesary in order to put in motion the plan of salvation, therefore, they all wanted it to happen.

At least that is how I understand it.

L.H.

[Ray]

Yes, it was necessary for Adam and Eve to eat that fruit, or in other words, to gain knowledge of good and evil, but they could have done so without acting against God's command to NOT eat that fruit.

As I said before, they could have just asked God for some of that fruit later, at another time, instead of eating some without His approval... even if it would have meant they would had to die by eating that fruit as God had told them would happen if they ate it.

To coin a thought from Nephi, God does not give us a commandment to His children unless He prepares a way for them to accomplish what He commands them, so I know there was a way they could have known how to fulfill God's commandments without breaking another one of God's commandments.

So, if you were to ask me what I believe happened, I would say that Adam and Eve took some of that fruit because they wanted some right then, after Satan enticed them by helping them to see that the fruit was indeed desirable... which means they followed Satan's influence and did what they wanted instead of just asking God for some of that fruit.

There's a little more detail involved, of course, because Eve was the first one to eat it and she had her own reasons for wanting it then, and Adam did what he did for some other reasons of his own... but neither one of them asked God for some of that fruit... or at least He didn't give them His approval.

And as I also said before, it still worked out in the end, and God had already prepared a way for His children to be redeemed after they chose to do something against His will.

I simply disagree with how they did it, and how it happened, because I know there really was a better way.

[Serg]

Yes, it was necessary for Adam and Eve to eat that fruit, or in other words, to gain knowledge of good and evil, but they could have done so without acting against God's command to NOT eat that fruit.

As I said before, they could have just asked God for some of that fruit later, at another time, instead of eating some without His approval... even if it would have meant they would had to die by eating that fruit as God had told them would happen if they ate it.

To coin a thought from Nephi, God does not give us a commandment to His children unless He prepares a way for them to accomplish what He commands them, so I know there was a way they could have known how to fulfill God's commandments without breaking another one of God's commandments.

So, if you were to ask me what I believe happened, I would say that Adam and Eve took some of that fruit because they wanted some right then, after Satan enticed them by helping them to see that the fruit was indeed desirable... which means they followed Satan's influence and did what they wanted instead of just asking God for some of that fruit.

There's a little more detail involved, of course, because Eve was the first one to eat it and she had her own reasons for wanting it then, and Adam did what he did for some other reasons of his own... but neither one of them asked God for some of that fruit... or at least He didn't give them His approval.

And as I also said before, it still worked out in the end, and God had already prepared a way for His children to be redeemed after they chose to do something against His will.

I simply disagree with how they did it, and how it happened, because I know there really was a better way.

I do not believe that they could have at some other time just asked God for some of the fruit, and everything would have just worked better than now. The result of mortality was inmutably mortality, mortality would have anyways(by needs) brought sin, if sin, then no presence of God, if not presence of God, then no happy agreement on progressing through mortality, in so, then a fallen state follows, if so, a wide devide between God and men is made, if such , a Saviour is needed anyways, if so, then reconciliation is obvious . There is NO way in which Adam and eve(and all of us after) could have gained mortality and at the same time, remain "innocent"in the Lord's eyes, as mortality also blinds every spiritual essential property. Of course, there is a clear distinction between what drove Eve to transgress and Adam to do the same. Eve had not in mind(even in our Temple video!) to "gain"mortality according to ANY plan, and "progress", she did it out of deceit, by the devil. Now, Adam, he was not deceived(not that he was any superior to his wife), but he had already turn down Satan's offer, he did it and accepted it while with Eve, because HE KNEW she would be cast out, and anyways, he LOVED her, and he also wanted to do it knowing(not perfectly but partly) that some sort of crucial progress would have followed it. Indeed, in Moses'book, we have their astonishment when they become aware, that they did good(in a sense-not an "all too absolute good"). But at any extent, there was no way(whether asking Elohim for the fruit or doing what they did) that mortality could have been gained without separation from God.

[Ray]

Why are you thinking we or Adam and Eve needed to gain mortality, Serg?

I don't think it's a gain that they needed. I think they just wanted some of that fruit... or some of the knowledge of good and evil.

Are you saying that if they asked God for that knowledge, they still would have needed to die?

(it's on a platter for you, man, now run with it...)

[Serg]

Why are you thinking we or Adam and Eve needed to gain mortality, Serg?

I don't think it's a gain that they needed. I think they just wanted some of that fruit... or some of the knowledge of good and evil.

Are you saying that if they asked God for that knowledge, they still would have needed to die?

(it's on a platter for you, man, now run with it...)

Lehi spoke of the pathetic situation of adam and eve in paradise, if they did not GAIN mortality. No reproduction, no birth, no birth , no progress for those preexisting.

What is it with you these days Ray?

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't understand that, why would God WANT us to take the fruit from the tree.... but... make it a commandment not to?

You are right Des. The very first commandment given them was to be fruitful and multiply. How could they fulfill this commandment without mortal bodies? They needed to eat the fruit in order to gain mortal bodies. They knew this. And God knew this as well. But there are rules in Heaven. God's house is a house of order.

I will liken it to a story about my grandfather. His parents split up and his mother received legal custody of him. His father moved down to central Utah while he and his mother stayed in Salt Lake. He wanted to go live with his father so he wrote his father a letter asking if he could come live with him. His father wrote back, "No, stay with your mother." So he wrote another letter; same answer. Unwilling to accept this answer, he decided to go anyways. He hitch-hiked down to where his father lived and upon arriving, he found that his father had already prepared a place for him to live, and his father asked him: "What took you so long?"

You see, because of legal resons, his father could not tell him to come down, and had to tell him to stay with his mother, but at the same time he wanted him to come down.

The lord's house is a house of order. They have to go by the rules. So when Adam fell from a state of immortality to mortality, he had to go by the rules for such an incident to take place; which, in this case, was acting contrary to the Lord's commandments. What better way to get "kicked out of Heaven" than to disobey instructions. But at the same time, all those involved could see that was neccesary in order to put in motion the plan of salvation, therefore, they all wanted it to happen.

At least that is how I understand it.

L.H.

I liked this anwser (because I can kind of relate), but I thought Eaden was on earth! Was it not?

[LionHeart]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that almost everything in the book of Genesis is to be considered symbolically rather than literally. The forbidden fruit, for example, may not have been fruit at all. It may have been the act of reading from a certain book perhaps. And the garden of Eden may have been a condition, or a state of mind rather than a place.

The book of Genesis says that man was created out of dust of the ground, but Brigham Young said that was symbolic. Moses (being the writer of Genesis) only used that phrase to give the people of Israel something they could understand. Brigham Young taught that Adam and Eve were actually moved to his world from another world. Since all life is essentially sustained from the dust of the Earth, for example, all plants grow from the ground; man and animals eat plants, and man also eats animals which eat plants, etc. One could say that man was created from the dust of the Earth.

L.H.

Why are you thinking we or Adam and Eve needed to gain mortality, Serg?

I don't think it's a gain that they needed. I think they just wanted some of that fruit... or some of the knowledge of good and evil.

Are you saying that if they asked God for that knowledge, they still would have needed to die?

(it's on a platter for you, man, now run with it...)

The forbidden friut was more than just knowledge of good and evil; it is the very thing that transformed them into mortal beings from immortal beings. This is what was required in order to fulfill the first commandment; to be fruitful and multiply.

L.H.

[Serg]

even in the Temple th etrue nature of the fruit is not explained, but as you say, it is symbolic, although I dont agree that Eden was just a state of mind.

regards,

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Why are you thinking we or Adam and Eve needed to gain mortality, Serg?

I don't think it's a gain that they needed. I think they just wanted some of that fruit... or some of the knowledge of good and evil.

Are you saying that if they asked God for that knowledge, they still would have needed to die?

(it's on a platter for you, man, now run with it...)

Lehi spoke of the pathetic situation of adam and eve in paradise, if they did not GAIN mortality. No reproduction, no birth, no birth , no progress for those preexisting.

Heh, I know which scriptures you're thinking of, Serg. I simply disagree with your interpretation of them. And if you would like to quote some scriptures I'll tell you what I think they mean.

What is it with you these days Ray?

Huh? What is "it"? What are you talking about???

Are you surprised that I don't believe every word you are saying?

[Ray]

The more I think about it, the more I believe that almost everything in the book of Genesis is to be considered symbolically rather than literally.

Heh, that's funny. The more I think about it the more I believe that everything <written> in the book of Genesis is to be considered symbollically <as well as> <strike>rather than</strike> literally, because the symbols help me have an even deeper understanding of all the things that did actually happen.

The forbidden fruit, for example, may not have been fruit at all. It may have been the act of reading from a certain book perhaps.

Do you think that when you get some of the "fruit of your labors" you are literally not getting any fruit???

I do believe they literally "ate" some of the "fruit" from a "tree" but I don't know what the "fruit" or "tree" looked like, but I know they really "ate" it and I know they really got what God told them they would get if they ate it.

And the garden of Eden may have been a condition, or a state of mind rather than a place.

Again, I believe it was a literal place, where those things literally (or really) happened. It doesn't have to be "or"... it could also be "and"... and I know that those things really happened.

The book of Genesis says that man was created out of dust of the ground, but Brigham Young said that was symbolic.

Heh, by explaining that the dust was symbollic, he didn't mean it wasn't literally (or really) some dust.

He simply explained what the dust really was, trying to explain that it wasn't so much like the dust most people think of when they think of dust lying around their house, or something. They WERE from the dust of the Earth... from what the Earth is really made of... and we will all go back to that dust when we die... speaking of our physical bodies, of course.

Moses (being the writer of Genesis) only used that phrase to give the people of Israel something they could understand.

Yes, as we all do. We use the best words we can think of to explain the thoughts we have in our minds, and his mind was inspired through the power of God to know and understand what really happened.

Brigham Young taught that Adam and Eve were actually moved to his world from another world.

Yes... God moved them (or sent them) from another world to this world... to inhabit their physical bodies... in the form they were in before that... in their spirit bodies... at which time their physical bodes became infused with their spirits... aka the "breath of life"... and then their bodies became living souls... or a body that has life in it.

Since all life is essentially sustained from the dust of the Earth, for example, all plants grow from the ground; man and animals eat plants, and man also eats animals which eat plants, etc. One could say that man was created from the dust of the Earth.

One could say that, and one did. It is one way to explain what happened. :)

[Serg]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

Why are you thinking we or Adam and Eve needed to gain mortality, Serg?

I don't think it's a gain that they needed. I think they just wanted some of that fruit... or some of the knowledge of good and evil.

Are you saying that if they asked God for that knowledge, they still would have needed to die?

(it's on a platter for you, man, now run with it...)

Lehi spoke of the pathetic situation of adam and eve in paradise, if they did not GAIN mortality. No reproduction, no birth, no birth , no progress for those preexisting.

Heh, I know which scriptures you're thinking of, Serg. I simply disagree with your interpretation of them. And if you would like to quote some scriptures I'll tell you what I think they mean.

What is it with you these days Ray?

Huh? What is "it"? What are you talking about???

Are you surprised that I don't believe every word you are saying?

If you would believe that i would be reffering to that when I asked ' what is it with you", then i feel very disappointed. You need no more of my words speaking in a dozen times that i do not regret people not agreeing with me, that actually, happens to you when what you say is mingled(in your mind) with what God ' has told you".

I only asked, cause I notice some hostility in you brother, and I MEAN " brother". Even if it is not hostile conduct, has something happened recently that you dislike? yor job? Church? family? Tell us, we can at least be here for you

[Ray]

The forbidden friut was more than just knowledge of good and evil; it is the very thing that transformed them into mortal beings from immortal beings.

That is YOUR interpretation of those scriptures. The person who wrote those scriptures didn't say the fruit was the very thing that transformed them, so where are you getting that idea? They could have been transformed from immortal beings into mortal beings simply by the power of God, or because they couldn't have any more of the fruit from the tree of life, which they did have permission to eat from.

Be careful when making assumptions, LionHeart. That could easily make an ___ out of you.

This is what was required in order to fulfill the first commandment; to be fruitful and multiply.

Knowing how to be fruitful and multiply (a good thing) was something they needed to know. They didn't have to become mortal to know how to have children... they could have asked God for that knowledge.

They still wouldn't have had knowledge of evil, though, and I think they had to learn the hard way.

[Ray]

If you would believe that i would be referring to that when I asked ' what is it with you", then i feel very disappointed.

Why? Because I couldn't read your mind? Did you really expect me to?

I just took a guess, and I'll now guess my guess was wrong. So what did you mean by that?

You need no more of my words speaking a dozen times that i do not regret people not agreeing with me, that actually, happens to you when what you say is mingled (in your mind) with what God ' has told you".

I think I understand the first part of what you just said, but I'm a little confused on the second part.

In the first part of what you just said I think you were saying that I don't need to hear you tell me that you don't regret it when people don't agree with you, because I've already heard that a dozen times.

I actually didn't know that you didn't regret that, but now I do know. Thank you.

In the second part of what you just said, I think you might have been saying that that actually happens to me (that I do regret it when people don't agree with me) when what I say is mingled (in my mind) with what God ' has told me", but I'm not sure if that's really what you meant.

And FYI, to help clear up any confusion that may be in your mind, I really don't care what you think, but it would be nice if God spoke through you. :)

I only asked, cause I notice some hostility in you brother, and I MEAN " brother".

Oh, okay, I'm guessing this is your response to my question asking you what you meant when you asked me what was it with me, and now I will guess that you are telling me that you thought that "it" was hostility.

Nope. Wrong guess. Would you care to guess again???

Even if it is not hostile conduct, has something happened recently that you dislike? yor job? Church? family? Tell us, we can at least be here for you

Okay, help me out here. Is this really what you are saying:

If anything happens in my life that I don't like, whether it's with my job, or Church, or family, or whatever, you'd like me to talk to you... to all of the people who visit this website???

Why do you want to hear what I don't like... and what would you tell me if I told you???

Can you help me improve anything I don't like... can you change my thoughts about anything???

Do you need me to tell you, sorry, once again.. that I really don't care what you think???

I learn from God... I trust in God... what could you offer that I do not have???

Sheesh. The mentality of some people. I feel like I'm talking to walls.

[LionHeart]

<div class='quotemain'>

The forbidden friut was more than just knowledge of good and evil; it is the very thing that transformed them into mortal beings from immortal beings.

That is YOUR interpretation of those scriptures. The person who wrote those scriptures didn't say the fruit was the very thing that transformed them, so where are you getting that idea? They could have been transformed from immortal beings into mortal beings simply by the power of God, or because they couldn't have any more of the fruit from the tree of life, which they did have permission to eat from.

Be careful when making assumptions, LionHeart. That could easily make an ___ out of you.

This is actually not an assumption. This is what Brigham Young taught. He said that their condition was a more fine state of matter. The forbidden fruit was more course. Upon eating the fruit, the courseness of it flowed through their veins, transforming their state of matter into a more course one.

I will now quote your own phrase: "Be careful when making assumptions, Ray. That could easily make an ___ out of you."

This is what was required in order to fulfill the first commandment; to be fruitful and multiply.

Knowing how to be fruitful and multiply (a good thing) was something they needed to know. They didn't have to become mortal to know how to have children... they could have asked God for that knowledge.

They still wouldn't have had knowledge of evil, though, and I think they had to learn the hard way.

True, they didn't have to become mortal to know how to create offspring, but they had to be mortal to actually do it.

L.H.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

The forbidden friut was more than just knowledge of good and evil; it is the very thing that transformed them into mortal beings from immortal beings.

That is YOUR interpretation of those scriptures. The person who wrote those scriptures didn't say the fruit was the very thing that transformed them, so where are you getting that idea? They could have been transformed from immortal beings into mortal beings simply by the power of God, or because they couldn't have any more of the fruit from the tree of life, which they did have permission to eat from.

Be careful when making assumptions, LionHeart. That could easily make an ___ out of you.

This is actually not an assumption. This is what Brigham Young taught. He said that their condition was a more fine state of matter. The forbidden fruit was more course. Upon eating the fruit, the courseness of it flowed through their veins, transforming their state of matter into a more course one.

I will now quote your own phrase: "Be careful when making assumptions, Ray. That could easily make an ___ out of you."

Cha Ching!

Thank you, very much, LionHeart. I like it when you think what God knows. :)

Or in other words, in this case, YOUR interpretation was (and still is) inspired by God, through Brigham. :)

And I now know that because God told me. :)

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

This (the fruit?) is what was required in order to fulfill the first commandment; to be fruitful and multiply.

Knowing how to be fruitful and multiply (a good thing) was something they needed to know. They didn't have to become mortal to know how to have children... they could have asked God for that knowledge.

They still wouldn't have had knowledge of evil, though, and I think they had to learn the hard way.

True, they didn't have to become mortal to know how to create offspring, but they had to be mortal to actually do it.

Heh, nope, I don't think so. I disagree with you here. So far you are not speaking for God. :)

What makes you think they had to become mortal to create offspring, LionHeart?

Are you thinking they couldn't have known how without becoming mortal?

Are you thinking that they couldn't just ask God?

Or that God would not have told them how to do it?

That God would have told them to go and eat from that tree that He told them to not eat from before?

And that God would've still cursed them for disobeying His will because He had told them not to before?

Keep thinking, and let me know what God thinks about that... if you should ever find out.

[Serg]

Ray, you say:"I really don't care what you think, but it would be nice if God spoke through you."

Fact: it would not matter how nice it would be, you would not be thankful about it, for you dont need it, God is sufficient. I just hope Ray, that as happened to Balaam, when the donkie starts talking to you(a message from God), you wont ignore it as you dearly proclaim you do with most people, for indeed, YOU DO NOT CARE.

Ray, you say: "If anything happens in my life that I don't like, whether it's with my job, or Church, or family, or whatever, you'd like me to talk to you... to all of the people who visit this website???"

Fact: No Ray, at least, try to read better than how i write, i stated "US" , as in ALL or those you may choose.

And yes, all people can benefit from the fact of sharing their dislikes and problems(I am the one here studying psicology-so give me at least that much), of course, if you are self sufficient, then, let pride do its so universally recognized "healing" job.

Sorry, this whole conversation concerning this, at least in this thread is over, as it is senseless and not edifying(sorry i realized that after so many posts ).

Regards,

[Ray]

I said I don't care what YOU think, Serg.

I didn't say I don't care what God thinks.

And when God speaks through YOU, IF he ever does, I'll know it, and I'll know it was God. :)

Please try harder to understand English. My words are as plain as can be.