Holy Ghost

[Guest ApostleKnight]

Keep thinking, and let me know what God thinks about that... if you should ever find out.

This sort of nonsense makes me want to projectile vomit. Why can't you just say, "Hmmm, I don't agree with your views on this." Instead, you continually put yourself up as God's personal representative to all unenlightened mortals on this board. Bleh. We've done this dance before so I'm not going to waste more time. You're unreal...a human hyperbole of the first order.

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Keep thinking, and let me know what God thinks about that... if you should ever find out.

This sort of nonsense makes me want to projectile vomit. Why can't you just say, "Hmmm, I don't agree with your views on this." Instead, you continually put yourself up as God's personal representative to all unenlightened mortals on this board. Bleh. We've done this dance before so I'm not going to waste more time. You're unreal...a human hyperbole of the first order.

Need I say I don't care what you think?

I shared what I thought. I said what I meant. If you don't love me, too bad. That's your problem.

And I STILL love you anyway, ApostleKnight. :)

[Princess3dward]

Need I say I don't care what you think?

I shared what I thought. I said what I meant. If you don't love me, too bad. That's your problem.

And I STILL love you anyway, ApostleKnight. :)

Ray.. we love you too...

But you just aren't spreading the spirit....

You are making people who may have been smiling.... no smile..

[Ray]

<div class='quotemain'>

Need I say I don't care what you think?

I shared what I thought. I said what I meant. If you don't love me, too bad. That's your problem.

And I STILL love you anyway, ApostleKnight. :)

Ray.. we love you too...

But you just aren't spreading the spirit....

You are making people who may have been smiling.... no smile..

It will all work out in the end, Desire'. We just need to have Faith, and learn. :)

[LionHeart]

Heh, nope, I don't think so. I disagree with you here. So far you are not speaking for God. :)

What makes you think they had to become mortal to create offspring, LionHeart?

Are you thinking they couldn't have known how without becoming mortal?

Are you thinking that they couldn't just ask God?

Or that God would not have told them how to do it?

That God would have told them to go and eat from that tree that He told them to not eat from before?

And that God would've still cursed them for disobeying His will because He had told them not to before?

Keep thinking, and let me know what God thinks about that... if you should ever find out.

You see Ray, you can't plant peas and get carrots. In order to get mortal offspring, two mortals must come together and....I won't go into details. They had to acquire mortal bodies in order to actually be fruitful and multiply. Regardless of how much they may have known about it. Knowing how to fix a car won't do a mechanic any good if he doesn't have the tools to actually do it.

L.H.

[Dr T]

Hi L.H.,

Are you saying that you think Adam and Eve did not have physical bodies until they ate of the tree of KofG&E or they would not die until they ate of that tree?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

Hi L.H.,

Are you saying that you think Adam and Eve did not have physical bodies until they ate of the tree of KofG&E or they would not die until they ate of that tree?

Thanks,

Dr. T

I agree that they would not die until they ate of the tree...

but I am not sure on the physical bodies part. :)

[LionHeart]

Hi L.H.,

Are you saying that you think Adam and Eve did not have physical bodies until they ate of the tree of KofG&E or they would not die until they ate of that tree?

Thanks,

Dr. T

Yes, when they first came to the garden, they were in a state of immortality. They did not actually become mortal until they ate the fruit.

L.H.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hi L.H.,

Are you saying that you think Adam and Eve did not have physical bodies until they ate of the tree of KofG&E or they would not die until they ate of that tree?

Thanks,

Dr. T

Yes, when they first came to the garden, they were in a state of immortality. They did not actually become mortal until they ate the fruit.

L.H.

But.. did they not have bodies?

[Dr T]

Hi L.H.,

Des asked the same question I still have about what you are saying. Are you saying "yes" to both of those? They didn't have bodies?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[LionHeart]

Hi L.H.,

Des asked the same question I still have about what you are saying. Are you saying "yes" to both of those? They didn't have bodies?

Thanks,

Dr. T

My personal belief on this subject, which idea I get from the teachings of Brigham Young, is this:

As was discussed in another thread, Jesus attained to a state of Godhood before He came to this world. I also beleive that the role Adam had to play as the father of humanity in the flesh was also a very important role; one that could not be carried out by just anyone. Therefore, I believe that Adam also attained to a state of Godhood before He came to this world. And since there was never a time when there was a chicken without the egg, or an egg without the chicken, as the universe is one eternal round, Adam must have had a body before He came to this Earth. It was not created from the dust of the Earth, but sustained by the dust of another Earth. He had already received a body and earned His salvation on another world and then agreed to come here and commence human kind on this one. Since His body was in a Celestial condition, He had to partake of the fruit to transform it back to a mortal condition.

This particular task of being the first man, had to be carried out by someone who had a knowledge of how to get back to the presence of the Father as there were no scriptures or stories of great prophets who went before; only Adam and the knowledge He had. This is what He had to teach His children with.

That is my belief on the subject. I couldn't say how many LDS agree with it.

L.H.

[Dr T]

Thanks L.H.,

You would say Adam was a god? His eating of the fruit was not a sin/disobedience? and the Bible is wrong when it says God created him out of the dust?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Hi L.H.,

Des asked the same question I still have about what you are saying. Are you saying "yes" to both of those? They didn't have bodies?

Thanks,

Dr. T

My personal belief on this subject, which idea I get from the teachings of Brigham Young, is this:

As was discussed in another thread, Jesus attained to a state of Godhood before He came to this world. I also beleive that the role Adam had to play as the father of humanity in the flesh was also a very important role; one that could not be carried out by just anyone. Therefore, I believe that Adam also attained to a state of Godhood before He came to this world. And since there was never a time when there was a chicken without the egg, or an egg without the chicken, as the universe is one eternal round, Adam must have had a body before He came to this Earth. It was not created from the dust of the Earth, but sustained by the dust of another Earth. He had already received a body and earned His salvation on another world and then agreed to come here and commence human kind on this one. Since His body was in a Celestial condition, He had to partake of the fruit to transform it back to a mortal condition.

This particular task of being the first man, had to be carried out by someone who had a knowledge of how to get back to the presence of the Father as there were no scriptures or stories of great prophets who went before; only Adam and the knowledge He had. This is what He had to teach His children with.

That is my belief on the subject. I couldn't say how many LDS agree with it.

L.H.

So he was not mortal?

[LionHeart]

Thanks L.H.,

You would say Adam was a god? His eating of the fruit was not a sin/disobedience? and the Bible is wrong when it says God created him out of the dust?

Thanks,

Dr. T

Yes, I would say that Adam was a God. I would also say that the bible is only as wrong as mother was when she said that little Billy was dropped off by a stork.

In other words, Moses only wrote that because that is what the people were capable of understanding.

I also believe that there may have been an error in translating the bible when it talks about the Lord commanding them not to partake of the "forbidden Fruit" (but I need to think about this more before I decide whether I believe it for sure) I have thought about the possiblity that what was translated as commandment not to eat the fruit, was actually more like: "Look, if you eat it, you will become mortal again and therefore become subject to death again. Are you sure you want to do this?"

Basically more of a warning rather than commandment. So far, it makes sense. Because why would God command them to be fruitful and multiply, and them command them not to eat the fruit that would make that possible for them?

To answer your question Des, they had bodies that were mortal at one time, on another world, which became immortal when they earned their salvation, and then back to mortal when they partook of the forbidden fruit on this world. They had to become mortal in order to produce mortal offspring. Had they remained immortal, they would have produced immortal offspring; Or "spirit children."

[Moonfire]

I am a little lost, not to mention some what new to this. But if they where suppose to eat the forbidden fruit why where the banished from the Garden of Eden and cursed? I appologize in advance if this was already covered and I missed it. If so please quote or point me to where this was mentioned. It is late and I am getting tired so my concentration is a bit weak right now.

[Dr T]

Hi L.H.,

I'm with Moon on this. His question is a good one. L.H., you said,

So far, it makes sense. Because why would God command them to be fruitful and multiply, and them command them not to eat the fruit that would make that possible for them?

To me, it doesn't make sense because if they are told to multiply then they are told NOT to eat of the tree that you suggest is the only way to do that, it seems like it is contrary to what you are proposing.

THanks,

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

Ya.. I am getting really confused... :S

Is there another member here that can help me?

I am not sure this way of explaining things is working for me.

[Brother Dorsey]

Ya.. I am getting really confused... :S

Is there another member here that can help me?

I am not sure this way of explaining things is working for me.

Hi Des.....

When you go to the Temple and receive your endowments you will learn more of the creation...I will try to explain what I can about Adam and Eve for you.

Adam and Eve were two Spirits predestined to be the Father and Mother of Earthly humans...when they were placed into the garden they had bodies but not mortal bodies nor celestial glorified bodies....they had the same bodies that will be given to us after the resurrection and during the millenium....perfect bodies that will experience no death but not yet glorified. It was in this state that they could walk in the Garden and converse directly with God because they were without sin. Being in this state it was impossible for Adam and Eve to have children, therefore impossible to complete the commandment to go forth and multiply. Adam and Eve were as children, innocent of sin but also with no free agency because they did not know the difference between good or evil , they had to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil so they could gain their agency...but by doing so they were banished from the Garden....and they became mortal and subject to dying, which is the first death. Also, because they were banished from the Garden they were thrust out of the presence of God which is the second death ...however they were now able to have children and fulfill Gods commandment....Adam and Eve fell from the Garden so mankind could be! And Gods plan of salvation was to provide us with a Savior to over come the first death, by the resurrection and the second by the atonement so we can go back to the presence of the Father.

I hope that helps explain a little for you!

[Moonfire]

.

[Brother Dorsey]

I am a little lost, not to mention some what new to this. But if they where suppose to eat the forbidden fruit why where the banished from the Garden of Eden and cursed? I appologize in advance if this was already covered and I missed it. If so please quote or point me to where this was mentioned. It is late and I am getting tired so my concentration is a bit weak right now.

Moon....

In Garden of Eden Adam and Eve were in the presence of God...they were immortal....once they partook of the fruit they became mortal and were thrust out of the Garden, thrust out of His presence because no unclean thing can be in the presence of God (unclean = mortal humans). BTW they were not cursed, they were not allowed into his presence anymore....and some say this is hell! But the good Lord had a plan....the plan of salvation to help us back to his presence!

[LionHeart]

Hi L.H.,

I'm with Moon on this. His question is a good one. L.H., you said,

So far, it makes sense. Because why would God command them to be fruitful and multiply, and then command them not to eat the fruit that would make that possible for them?

To me, it doesn't make sense because if they are told to multiply then they are told NOT to eat of the tree that you suggest is the only way to do that, it seems like it is contrary to what you are proposing.

THanks,

Dr. T

That is exactly why I began to wonder if the original bible text was misinterpreted. You can't find anywhere in the bible or the pearl of great price where it says that the tree of knowledge was the thing that transformed them into mortals; this was Brigham Young's teaching. But regardless of whether that's true or not, they still had to eat of the fruit in order to gain the knowledge of how to be fruitful and multiply. So the book of Genesis is contradictory in this instance.

But for all those who don't follow, I will sum it all up. And keep in mind, this is NOT official LDS doctrine, It is an idea that was advanced by Brigham Young which I read about and it made sense to me.

First of all, we need to understand that no man can officiate in administering laws to the children of men whithout first becoming subject to those laws himself.

OKay, Adam and Eve earned their salvation on another world. That is where they received their bodies. They then agreed to come to this world and commence humankind on this world. The condition they were in was that of an exalted man. They had bodies, but because their bodies had been transformed in to celestial bodies, they were made up of a more pure state of matter; unable to be seen by the untrained mortal eye. The tree of knowledge was composed of a more course form of matter. When they ate the fruit, that course matter flowed through their veins and transformed their body into a more course state of matter. Rather than being commanded not to eat the fruit, it may have been more to the effect of "Are you sure you want to do this; even though you will again become subject unto death?" So they agreed to do it. They were not cursed, only transformed into mortal beings. Now also in the garden of eden, there was another tree called 'The Tree of Life' which would transform them back. This tree is accounted for in the Book of Abraham. This is why they were sent out of the garden; to ensure they would not eat of this tree if things started to get rough. Because on their former world, they likely had conveniences that were established by those who went before them. Now they were the ones to begin it all. They had no way to tell just how they would be able to cope with hardships they would encounter. So they were sent out of the garden so they could not decide to end it all early.

Also being the first people on this earth, they had no prophets who went before them, and no scriptures to teach their children from. Adam had to know how to earn his salvation so He could teach His children. He knew how because He had done it before.

To me, it makes more sense when considering it in this light.

L.H.

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Ya.. I am getting really confused... :S

Is there another member here that can help me?

I am not sure this way of explaining things is working for me.

Hi Des.....

When you go to the Temple and receive your endowments you will learn more of the creation...I will try to explain what I can about Adam and Eve for you.

Adam and Eve were two Spirits predestined to be the Father and Mother of Earthly humans...when they were placed into the garden they had bodies but not mortal bodies nor celestial glorified bodies....they had the same bodies that will be given to us after the resurrection and during the millenium....perfect bodies that will experience no death but not yet glorified. It was in this state that they could walk in the Garden and converse directly with God because they were without sin. Being in this state it was impossible for Adam and Eve to have children, therefore impossible to complete the commandment to go forth and multiply. Adam and Eve were as children, innocent of sin but also with no free agency because they did not know the difference between good or evil , they had to eat from the tree of knowledge of good and evil so they could gain their agency...but by doing so they were banished from the Garden....and they became mortal and subject to dying, which is the first death. Also, because they were banished from the Garden they were thrust out of the presence of God which is the second death ...however they were now able to have children and fulfill Gods commandment....Adam and Eve fell from the Garden so mankind could be! And Gods plan of salvation was to provide us with a Savior to over come the first death, by the resurrection and the second by the atonement so we can go back to the presence of the Father.

I hope that helps explain a little for you!

Thank you.

I think I have it better now.

[Dr T]

Hi L.H.,

So if I understand you, wouldn't you hold that they had already been thought this progression (in some sense)? If so, and they knew that getting bodies is a good thing, why would you see them as having to decide (as if it was a hard thing) to get bodies?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Princess3dward]

There was an article I read in an ensign about old testiment woman, and it mentioned how "we comment eve's wosdom to eat of the fruit."

I don't know to much though..

That is just what I read.

If anyone knows what edition, feel free to share, otherwise I will go look it up later.

I am feeling unwell today.

[LionHeart]

Hi L.H.,

So if I understand you, wouldn't you hold that they had already been thought this progression (in some sense)? If so, and they knew that getting bodies is a good thing, why would you see them as having to decide (as if it was a hard thing) to get bodies?

Thanks,

Dr. T

They already, had bodies. Their bodies were just becoming mortal again. This is why it would have been a hard decision. One might say they were taking a step backwards in their eternal progression; making that sacrifice for us so we could have a chance at salvation.

L.H.