Creation of Lucifer from intelligence

[kayne]

As to the temple, I can testify to you that the doctrine that evil spirits can not enter into there is not an official doctrine of the Latter-day Saint Church. While others may infer or derive an interpretation from the scriptures of such a doctrine, no where is such a doctrine to be plainly found. Please do not accept such a doctrine as truth unless the Holy Ghost has testified that it is true to you via a burning in your bosom.

to add to this say a worthy person holds a temple recommend worthily in all ways. suddenly said person goes off the deep end commits adultry. perhaps even murder. still with a worthy recommend can walk right into the temple undetected. i would say there is a rather compelling arguement that Satan has just attended temple through said unworthy person. if no one catches this person before they do this then in all honesty what exactly is stopping this person from going to the temple???? barring a divine intervention nothing thats what. all the gate people do is scan a card nothing more really.

i could go view a round of porn right now then put on a tie and suit and attend the temple. Satan would be the one dwelling in my heart not God. and there would be little to stop aside from a divine miracle.

[annewandering]

There is no beginning and there is no end. If God has progressed then He did not know everything in the beginning and, I am not sure He knows everything for all eternity, since it is endless.

Being perfect is not the same as knowing everything. Doesnt being perfect mean being without sin? It has nothing to do with knowing how to do biophysics. Or knowing exactly how every intelligence will live their eternal lives.

[Martain]

From Lecture 4 of the Lectures on Faith by Joseph Smith I quote the following excerpts in regards to the attributes of God:

We have in the revelations which he has given to the human family, the following account of his attributes:

First - Knowledge:

Second - Faith, or power:

Third - Justice:

Fourth - Judgment:

Fifth - Mercy:

And Sixth - Truth:

By a little reflection it will be seen that the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity is necessary to enable any rational being to exercise faith in him.

For without the idea of the existence of these attributes in the Deity, men could not exercise faith in him for life and salvation; seeing that without the knowledge of all things, God would not be able to save any portion of his creatures; for it is by reason of the knowledge which he has of all things, from the beginning to the end, that enables him to give that understanding to his creatures, by which they are made partakers of eternal life; and if it were not for the idea existing in the minds of men that God had all knowledge, it would be impossible for them to exercise faith in him.

D&C 93

24 And truth is knowledge of things as they are, and as they were, and as they are to come;

26 The Spirit of truth is of God. I am the Spirit of truth, and John bore record of me, saying: He received a fulness of truth, yea, even of all truth;

Jesus Christ received a fullness of truth until he has all truth. Truth is knowledge of things as they are were and will be. Therefore, like our Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ has all knowledge of things as they will be.

Edited January 29, 2012 by Martain

[jcob]

i could go view a round of porn right now then put on a tie and suit and attend the temple. Satan would be the one dwelling in my heart not God. and there would be little to stop aside from a divine miracle.

Satan generally does not remain in the presence of light (Moses 6:57 “no unclean thing can dwell there, or dwell in his presence”). Dwell means to reside permanently. Im talking about the pysical presance of Satan in his spirit form. I dont believe he can enter the temple. My reasoning for this:

I was told by the temple presidents counselor before having my endowment “the reason that the most sacred ordinances are kept for the temple, is because Satan cannot come in here”. The Holy Ghost confirmed it to me.

Thomas S. Monson called it a "sacred sanctuary" in the April 2011 general conferance.

Michael Ballam - "we realized that we had to guard against him, and keep him away from us. How did we do that? By playing music around which he’s uncomfortable. He is uncomfortable around the presence of light. Reading great works of literature that are inspired, reading the scriptures, having art work in our home’s that depict the light side. Make him uncomfortable.”

S. Michael Wilcox shared this symbolic quote about the temple “I stand with my little sword of Justice and all the enemy seems to pile over the hill, like an old western movie. And I look and I say Father I cannot stand against all these temptations and trials I’m gonna be swept away. And the Lord says “then retreat, come home, come into my place of refuge, put your sword down, there are no battles to be fought in here, no enemy penetrates these walls, rest.” I always feel the spirit while listening to this part of the talk.

Although he has influenced you while you were in the world, I do not believe he can be within the walls of the temple. I believe someone can enter the temple with an unclean mind and an impure heart, not neccesarlily to do with Satan, just our tendancies as humans to commit sin.

[MarginOfError]

there are at least a thousand scripture verses that say God knows the beginning from the end. God is eternal. and several others say he is ommnipotent(spelling?). really google it essentially God has to know everything in order to pass perfect just judgements. or just look at the quote below

also this answers the question wonderfully

/thread

So if we extend this line of speculation into other lines of speculation, was God omniscient when he had his own mortal existence? Did he know what decisions each and every one of us would make prior to his mortal existence?

I think we should be careful to not confuse all-wise with all-knowing. Wisdom, insight, and intuition are not the same thing as knowledge.

[kayne]

So if we extend this line of speculation into other lines of speculation, was God omniscient when he had his own mortal existence? Did he know what decisions each and every one of us would make prior to his mortal existence?

I think we should be careful to not confuse all-wise with all-knowing. Wisdom, insight, and intuition are not the same thing as knowledge.

he wasnt God during that time though so the arguement is moot.

[Martain]

agreed.

[MarginOfError]

he wasnt God during that time though so the arguement is moot.

Yet, somehow, God is eternal and unchanging.

Seems completely internally consistent to me.

[kayne]

Yet, somehow, God is eternal and unchanging.

Seems completely internally consistent to me.

hes not God then. He lacks the traits of God. He lacks the properties of God. as a mortal God could lie steal and view porn. Hes not God. holding Him to such a standard while a mere mortal is simply unfair.

I hope to become a God one day. however here i am on earth one big sinner....yet if I become God ill become eternal and unchanging as that is a trait of Godhood.

[Cureloms]

Just like here on earth we choose to follow or not. Intelligence elected to follow. Spirits elected to follow. Satan elected not to follow. God gives us principles and allow us to govern ourselves. It has always been that way.

[MarginOfError]

Yet, somehow, God is eternal and unchanging.

Seems completely internally consistent to me.

hes not God then. He lacks the traits of God. He lacks the properties of God. as a mortal God could lie steal and view porn. Hes not God. holding Him to such a standard while a mere mortal is simply unfair.

I hope to become a God one day. however here i am on earth one big sinner....yet if I become God ill become eternal and unchanging as that is a trait of Godhood.

The beauty of sarcasm is that I wasn't actually holding him to any standard.

But to clarify what you seem to be saying:

You claim that the scriptures don't actually teach that God is eternal and unchanging, but those that have the status of god are eternal and unchanging. Once an entity gains that status, he or she is instantaneously granted omniscience of all things past and future. What you describe feels strangely similar to the picture below, but with better living quarters.

It also seems to go against the principle of line upon line and precept upon precept. But I'd guess you don't find that important since you seem to feel that gods and mortals are subject to entirely different sets of rules.

Here is the thing, though: your conclusions are based on the extrapolation of a very few and very vague clauses in the scriptures about which we know very little. Plain and simple, we don't know how one gains the status of a god. We don't know what comes after exaltation.

You've already agreed that there was a point at which God didn't know everything and then there was a point that he did know everything. What we don't know is what the bridge from imperfect to perfect knowledge is. You've just chosen to wave that fact away with the magic wand of unsupported and unsupportable assumption.

There are other plausible explanations. Some have proposed that God doesn't necessarily know everything that is going to happen because of some grand all-knowingness, but because he knows each and one of us so well, that he can predict what our actions will be; much as our own fathers could sometimes tell what decisions we would make based on what they had observed of us.

If this explanation were true, it would suggest that by the time the earth were created, God had had sufficient time to get to know us to be able to understand what our choices would be. It also suggests that there was a point at which he wouldn't have understood our future choices quite so well because he didn't know us as well.

Those are all assumptions, too, by the way. The conclusions may or may not be true. Which is my point. We don't know what God knew when he "formed the intelligences.*" That makes us woefully inadequate to explore questions about why he would have created spirits that would go on to rebel. The possibilities range from "It had to be done" to "he didn't know" and include everything in between.

[Gwen]

Ok so just for fun I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring. This is an opinion thread because we don't have all the information revealed to us so I know many will not agree with my opinion. I mostly know because it's been debated on this site more than once. Though I'm more than happy to give further or better explanation I'm not out to debate my opinion, just throwing it out there for others to have an additional perspective. I'm sorry it will be long. lol

1. This life is patterned after the first.

2. We are a family with god as our father.

3. The crowning ordinance of the gospel and the entire purpose of the church is to support, sustain, and bind families.

With these three facts I find it's helpful when speculating the finer points of things to compare it to the family here (then try to imagine how that works on a level of perfected deity).

So how does it work here? We have children. We don't get to choose them, their personalities, talents, hair color, etc. They are not a craft project, they are children. We don't have children hoping they will be vulnerable to addictions or depressed or learning disabilities. We don't want our children to be "flawed". But they will be. After they are here we start learning about them. It's amazing how quickly we learn about them. We get to know them so well that if we hear a child cry from another room we know if it's our baby or not. More than if they are ours but which of our children it is. We also get to know their strengths and weaknesses. I know which ones will be tempted and drawn to popularity or unafraid to stand alone. Which ones will attract the bullies or could become the bully. Which will be most impacted by peer pressure or be a leader. These things are important to see before they are faced with it so that I can prepare them as best I can to stand up to things, to make the right choice. But in the end it's their choice, it could go either way.

In understanding the function of family I believe it's fairly safe to say god didn't "create" satan to be "the opposition". He had children. He knew some would stray just like we know the odds of all our children becoming what we dream for them. Some will choose a different path. I'm sure as we grew over time our father started to get a good idea of who was most likely to become "the opposition" and who would be the leaders. I don't think he was happy about the idea that some of his children would choose the wrong path and he probably did everything he could to teach them so that those children would make a different choice. Just like we do for our kids here. Sometimes after all we can do they use their agency to take a different path.

I also think it's also important to separate "God" from "father". God is our father. Before this life we didn't think of him as "God", he was dad. The creation of "God" was for this life. God is a function of this world. When we leave this life we do not return to "God", we go home to our father.

When we talk about the all powerful, knows the beginning from the end, can control the world by the breath of his words kind of deity we are talking about the "God" created for this existence. For now, as far as we are concerned, god is the supreme. He knows all, he knows us perfectly, he knows what will happen in this world, he is the beginning and the end.... of this world, this life, this existence. We need him.

Eternity is a different matter. In the eternal world he is our father. A simple evidence to this is when we talk about agency. How often is it said that god can not take our agency, if he did he would cease to be god? To my knowledge we are the only christian church that teaches there are rules/laws/restrictions on god. I've had ppl get very upset with me on that issue. "How can you say god is bound by something? He can't be all powerful and bound." But we do teach the existence of eternal laws. God is god because he keeps those rules, were he to break the rules he would lose his power. But we know he wouldn't do that because he is god, he has been proven, he has become perfect. This concept is where we base the foundation of becoming like god ourselves. Our eternal concept and goal isn't to become gods. It's to become parents, to have families.

God can be omnipotent and bound by eternal laws at the same time. Just as we have all power over our home and the physical existence for our kids and yet are bound by greater laws than ourselves.

For the here and now I have a god, he knows all and can control all, he is a supreme deity that I rely on for my daily success and I worship him. When I die I don't expect to meet "my god". I expect to return to my father, a relationship of love not worship. I don't imagine returning to a cold sterile court room with god sitting in a throne to judge me. I envision a reunion with my father whom I've been separated from. A big hug and a kiss, tears of joy and sorrow knowing I could have done more to make him proud. I envision sitting in a living room atmosphere as family, holding hands and intimately talking about experiences here. The joys and triumphs, with smiles and laughter. I hope to hear him sometimes say "I'm proud of you". We'll also discuss the sadness, the mistakes, the pain, and sometimes he'll ask "Did you learn anything?".

[Seminarysnoozer]

Just like here on earth we choose to follow or not. Intelligence elected to follow. Spirits elected to follow. Satan elected not to follow. God gives us principles and allow us to govern ourselves. It has always been that way.

I agree with everything you say here except I think the statement that "Satan elected not to follow" is too simple of a statement. He did follow up to a certain point. When presented the conceptual idea that in order to go any further in our development we would need to "die", leave God's presence, he wasn't willing to stretch his faith in God that far. Anything shy of that kind of sacrifice, it seems, he was willing to take. But you are right in the sense that if a person is only willing to cross a bridge half-way then they really aren't willing to cross the bridge. Lucifer became Satan, though, because of a conceptual disagreement or disbelief. I think it is important to understand it that way because it teaches us that all of us here agreed with God's plan and understood it conceptually. Here, on Earth, is where an "intelligence" has an opportunity to do what we said we would do. So, here on Earth is where we have the chance to follow in the physical sense, do it. Spiritually it was follow or not follow in the conceptual, understanding and appreciation of the plan not anything done. Out of God's presence, not following occurs, in the action sense of the word.

[MarginOfError]

So how does it work here? We have children. We don't get to choose them, their personalities, talents, hair color, etc. They are not a craft project

Just plain awesome!

For the here and now I have a god, he knows all and can control all, he is a supreme deity that I rely on for my daily success and I worship him. When I die I don't expect to meet "my god". I expect to return to my father, a relationship of love not worship.

Quote of the month, anyone?

Edited January 31, 2012 by MarginOfError

[Seminarysnoozer]

Ok so just for fun I'm gonna throw my hat in the ring. This is an opinion thread because we don't have all the information revealed to us so I know many will not agree with my opinion. I mostly know because it's been debated on this site more than once.

Really? I agree with your opinion and from what I have heard by way of testimonies born in Sacrament meeting it seems that most LDS have a similar view.

I agree that family is the key. Look at the difference between the Celestial and Terrestrial kingdoms.

I think the reason the family is key is not necessarily because I am married and have 4 kids and want to be with them forever but because I think the belief that real joy comes from taking pleasure in the success of others. And that attitude which is incorporated in being Christ like, to love thy neighbor as thy self, is the same trait that gives one the joy that comes with family life. Family life is the opportunity we have to learn to love that type of life if it doesn't already come naturally. As I believe God will give what our hearts desire is, this is the chance we have to learn the importance of that trait and learn to love it. Satan was so far removed from that concept as he does not find any pleasure in the success of others, specifically the success of God or Christ that he makes himself excluded from such a program that attempts to teach that. When we know how to feel the success of others, like the joy I get when my husband and children do well, then we have the potential to be Celestial beings and be like our Father.

Another key aspect of this is that God receives something from our successes, joy. Many religions suggest that God receives nothing from our efforts, that the status of God does not change one way or the other if we do well or not. I think that can't be any farther from the truth. A Father receives joy from the successes of His children and in this way His joy can be eternal and progressing. Having a family in this life teaches us that truth that I am defined by my family. Not everyone has the same opportunities for family in this life but the love of that idea can still be fostered and evidence of its value can still be seen and learned.

[kayne]

It also seems to go against the principle of line upon line and precept upon precept. But I'd guess you don't find that important since you seem to feel that gods and mortals are subject to entirely different sets of rules.

but we are arent we? Lets just look at Christ. He followed and lived by a far higher standard than any of us could ever imagine. furthermore Take the 10 commandments. The Lord at first wanted to give us a higher law. so you see we do not have the full law to live by even today. the full law is obviously whatever Christ is living by but we dont have that. also in a celestial world some things lose relevance for example stealing wont be a problem in a celestial world. while that rule might of once been important once you progress past our current world some rules just have no application any longer because by default we wont commit those sins anymore no one has to tell us no dont steal anymore. essentially there will be no more law of chasity lessons at church.

also i never mentioned line upon line. though what i am described is very much line upon line. once we graduate from one world of laws(telestial) we can progress to the next one and so forth. sort of how we go aaronic priesthood, melcheizidic(Spelling) then the temple. i am just saying we do not have Gods whole law and therefore we do no live it.

The beauty of sarcasm is that I wasn't actually holding him to any standard.

But to clarify what you seem to be saying:

You claim that the scriptures don't actually teach that God is eternal and unchanging, but those that have the status of god are eternal and unchanging. Once an entity gains that status, he or she is instantaneously granted omniscience of all things past and future. What you describe feels strangely similar to the picture below, but with better living quarters.

im not sure what that picture is implying....but think of it this way. Dog has different traits from a snake. a human from a snake and a dog. A celestial body and a telestial body. a Celestial body that is not exhalted from an exhalted celestial body. we obtain unique traits to wherever we go. in the case of the two celestial bodies one primary difference is one has the power of creation one does not. God being God obtained unique traits by virtue of becoming a God. perhaps he is unchanging in the fact he was always going to become a God. and eternal in the fact DC tells us all things are matter and we know matter cannot be created nor destroyed(unless we find out that scientific law is wrong but to be eternal one must of always existed) so thus eternal and unchanging. but i suspect it is in point of reference to God now right now and forever since we have come to know Him he was and always will be eternal and unchanging through our eyes.

There are other plausible explanations. Some have proposed that God doesn't necessarily know everything that is going to happen because of some grand all-knowingness, but because he knows each and one of us so well, that he can predict what our actions will be; much as our own fathers could sometimes tell what decisions we would make based on what they had observed of us.

so when it says He knows all from beginning to end or that there is nothing that He does not know....i guess is one heck of a lie eh? sorry I dont think He is learning anything. I think he already knows everything there is nothing to be learned else He could not know the beginning from the end without some margin of error it says this a number of a times too so i am not really sure how that can mean anything else but that.

Here is the thing, though: your conclusions are based on the extrapolation of a very few and very vague clauses in the scriptures about which we know very little. Plain and simple, we don't know how one gains the status of a god. We don't know what comes after exaltation.

You've already agreed that there was a point at which God didn't know everything and then there was a point that he did know everything. What we don't know is what the bridge from imperfect to perfect knowledge is. You've just chosen to wave that fact away with the magic wand of unsupported and unsupportable assumption.

no i never said a magic wand. nor do i claim to know how it fully work. instant or slow or perhaps the LDS_THEORIES guy is right. I do not know. i just know some traits are Godhood traits.

i also disagree i believe we have enough to figure out what makes God God. I believe that is neccessary too because it is impossible to form a meaningful relationship with a person if you cannot understand that person. and God and Savior have both mentioned quite a bit about themselves throughout the entire scriptures which i suspect is we can understand Them and grow closer to Them. We know They(Father and Savior) are loving, caring, patient, merciful, Vengeful, Jealous, All knowing,Emotional,capable of feeling sadness,capable of feeling incrediable joy, heck if i recall in 3rd nephi he weeps tears of joy, and a whole lot more. we see countless ways They conduct Their business. We know Jesus is our brother willing to die and suffer for us. we see countless times how They interact with their followers and prophets. We can get a pretty good clue on Their characters. There is plenty to draw i think some fairly good conclusions on who Exactly Jesus and The Father are.

[MarginOfError]

It also seems to go against the principle of line upon line and precept upon precept. But I'd guess you don't find that important since you seem to feel that gods and mortals are subject to entirely different sets of rules.

but we are arent we? Lets just look at Christ. He followed and lived by a far higher standard than any of us could ever imagine.

Actually, he lived the law of the gospel; the same law we are commanded to live. He just did it flawlessly.

furthermore Take the 10 commandments. The Lord at first wanted to give us a higher law.

The ten commandments were part of the higher law. The Mosaic Law was given when the Israelites failed to behave themselves long enough to receive the Ten Commandments.

so you see we do not have the full law to live by even today. the full law is obviously whatever Christ is living by but we dont have that.

Again, we do have it. The difference between us and Christ is that Christ lived it without the need for repentance.

also in a celestial world some things lose relevance for example stealing wont be a problem in a celestial world. while that rule might of once been important once you progress past our current world some rules just have no application any longer because by default we wont commit those sins anymore no one has to tell us no dont steal anymore. essentially there will be no more law of chasity lessons at church.

Does that fact that everyone chooses to obey a law stop the law from being a law?

also i never mentioned line upon line.

I didn't claim you did. I claimed you violated the principle.

though what i am described is very much line upon line. once we graduate from one world of laws(telestial) we can progress to the next one and so forth. sort of how we go aaronic priesthood, melcheizidic(Spelling) then the temple. i am just saying we do not have Gods whole law and therefore we do no live it.

What you are describing is a batch system of line upon line, where you don't know a bunch of things, and then suddenly, you are endowed with this entire new body of knowledge all at once. It's an interesting theory, but one I don't think you can find much support for.

The beauty of sarcasm is that I wasn't actually holding him to any standard.

But to clarify what you seem to be saying:

You claim that the scriptures don't actually teach that God is eternal and unchanging, but those that have the status of god are eternal and unchanging. Once an entity gains that status, he or she is instantaneously granted omniscience of all things past and future. What you describe feels strangely similar to the picture below, but with better living quarters.

im not sure what that picture is implying

PHENOMENAL COSMIC POWERS...itty bitty living space

....but think of it this way. Dog has different traits from a snake. a human from a snake and a dog. A celestial body and a telestial body. a Celestial body that is not exhalted from an exhalted celestial body. we obtain unique traits to wherever we go. in the case of the two celestial bodies one primary difference is one has the power of creation one does not. God being God obtained unique traits by virtue of becoming a God. perhaps he is unchanging in the fact he was always going to become a God. and eternal in the fact DC tells us all things are matter and we know matter cannot be created nor destroyed(unless we find out that scientific law is wrong but to be eternal one must of always existed) so thus eternal and unchanging. but i suspect it is in point of reference to God now right now and forever since we have come to know Him he was and always will be eternal and unchanging through our eyes.

Except that dogs are not the same species as a snake are not the same species as humans.

If your analogy were any good, the dogs are not created in the image of god, and neither are snakes, and neither are humans. Oh, shucks.

There are other plausible explanations. Some have proposed that God doesn't necessarily know everything that is going to happen because of some grand all-knowingness, but because he knows each and one of us so well, that he can predict what our actions will be; much as our own fathers could sometimes tell what decisions we would make based on what they had observed of us.

so when it says He knows all from beginning to end or that there is nothing that He does not know....i guess is one heck of a lie eh? sorry I dont think He is learning anything. I think he already knows everything there is nothing to be learned else He could not know the beginning from the end without some margin of error it says this a number of a times too so i am not really sure how that can mean anything else but that.

What beginning from what end? I've read books where I know the beginning and I know the end long before I get to it, but that doesn't mean I know how my life is going to end.

Here is the thing, though: your conclusions are based on the extrapolation of a very few and very vague clauses in the scriptures about which we know very little. Plain and simple, we don't know how one gains the status of a god. We don't know what comes after exaltation.

You've already agreed that there was a point at which God didn't know everything and then there was a point that he did know everything. What we don't know is what the bridge from imperfect to perfect knowledge is. You've just chosen to wave that fact away with the magic wand of unsupported and unsupportable assumption.

no i never said a magic wand.

Again, I didn't say you did. I'm just illustrating the basics of how you've built your theory.

nor do i claim to know how it fully work.

EXACTLY! so why talk like you do?

instant or slow or perhaps the LDS_THEORIES guy is right. I do not know. i just know some traits are Godhood traits.

i also disagree i believe we have enough to figure out what makes God God. I believe that is neccessary too because it is impossible to form a meaningful relationship with a person if you cannot understand that person. and God and Savior have both mentioned quite a bit about themselves throughout the entire scriptures which i suspect is we can understand Them and grow closer to Them. We know They(Father and Savior) are loving, caring, patient, merciful, Vengeful, Jealous, All knowing,Emotional,capable of feeling sadness,capable of feeling incrediable joy, heck if i recall in 3rd nephi he weeps tears of joy, and a whole lot more. we see countless ways They conduct Their business. We know Jesus is our brother willing to die and suffer for us. we see countless times how They interact with their followers and prophets. We can get a pretty good clue on Their characters. There is plenty to draw i think some fairly good conclusions on who Exactly Jesus and The Father are.

Knowing the character of God and knowing the process by which he became a god are two entirely separate things (although maybe not totally mutually exclusive).

[Seminarysnoozer]

God being God obtained unique traits by virtue of becoming a God.

There are other plausible explanations.

You've already agreed that there was a point at which God didn't know everything and then there was a point that he did know everything. What we don't know is what the bridge from imperfect to perfect knowledge is. You've just chosen to wave that fact away with the magic wand of unsupported and unsupportable assumption.

You agree that there are other plausible explanations but you missed one very important one that is an established concept of our religion. That is the idea of inheritance. When we advance to the point at which we inherit a Kingdom we receive it in "full". That is in the scriptures. What does it mean to inherit the Kingdom in full (or the fullness thereof)?

When you learned the English language as a child, or whenever you learned it, did you really learn it line upon line? You may say 'yes' but really you did not, because you did not invent the English language. The establishment of the English language came about before you were born. You skipped over those lines and went straight to learning the language itself. ... you inherited the established language.

Similarly, by inheriting a specific Kingdom and level of glory we can and will inherit all that was done before by those of that level. This is done through the power of being a covenant and sealed people. When we are sealed together, bound to each other through our Eternal family unit, we participate in all that the Father has. This is the story of the prodigal son. The prodigal son came home to have all that his father has.

The idea that achievement and growth is a personal thing is somewhat satanic. That was Satan's idea, that he could do it on his own. We know that is not true. This is why 'family' is so important to our religion. It teaches us the value and truth of this concept. This is why we believe that we should love our neighbor as our self. Because it is that kind of person who could truly be bound together with others in a non-selfish way to inherit all. At the point the inheritance was received, the Father inherited all that was before Him as if it is and always was His own. All the things that existed eternally in that sphere is now His. The Kingdom is not divided when inherited, it remains one. We can be one as well.

[Martain]

Haven't really been following this thread since I last spoke on it but I recently found this quote that I felt was of significance.

Found in chapter 6 of the Doctrines of the Gospel Student Manual published by the Church I found the following:

■ “The Lord made it known to Moses (See Book of Moses Chap. 3 .) and also to Abraham ( Abraham Ch. 3 ) and it is expressed in several revelations, that man was in the beginning with God. In that day, however, man was a spirit unembodied. The beginning was when the councils met and the decision was made to create this earth that the spirits who were intended for this earth, should come here and partake of the mortal conditions and receive bodies of flesh and bones. The doctrine has prevailed that matter was created out of nothing, but the Lord declares that the elements are eternal. Matter always did and, therefore, always will exist, and the spirits of men as well as their bodies were created out of matter. We discover in this revelation that the intelligent part of man was not created, but always existed. There has been some speculation and articles have been written attempting to explain just what these ‘intelligences’ are, or this ‘intelligence’ is, but it is futile for us to speculate upon it. We do know that intelligence was not created or made and cannot be because the Lord has said it. There are some truths it is well to leave until the Lord sees fit to reveal the fulness” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Church History and Modern Revelation, 1:401).

[TheDoctor323]

It is said that God knows all things but (in the way we interpret this at first) this would mean that God already knows who will be exalted and thereby meaning that we are all predestined to make the choices that we do.

However I think that there are numerous ways of looking at this (the correct one of which, we are unable to identify in mortality) I think that Heavenly Father sees this differently as an exalted being. He may be able to know all possible outcomes of every situation simultaneously. He also knows the relative likelyhood of each outcome. The only variable is the agency of His children.

Another possibility is that God can look at the universe he created without the restriction of time (or by manipulating it somehow. Remember that God created the laws of the universe and must abide by them. Once you get into it, it all becomes very interesting from a Physics point if view)

Does Heavenly Father know right now whether I will be worthy for exaltation in the celestial kingdom at the last day? I do not think a straight yes or no can be given.

My destination after this life will be a result of the choices I make while on this Earth. I think that God knows all of those choices but cannot know for certain which I will choose when presented with them.

After all: how can hope be a Godly characteristic if God knows exactly how everything will play out (thereby rendering hope meaningless. How could God hope for something he knows will not happen. It would be like us hoping the Titanic will not sink at the end of the film)

This is all speculation of course. I don't think we can really know until we pass from this state of mortality.

Nevertheless it remains true that the existence of Satan was necessary for the plan of salvation to succeed as there has to be opposition in all things.

Edited February 13, 2012 by TheDoctor323
spelling error

[Vanhin]

Why If I were Heavenly Father would I turn Lucifer, from the Intelligence that he was, into a spirit, knowing full well the beginning from the end?

If someone commits sin, or offends someone inside the temple, where Satan cannot be. They are not being influenced by Satan right? I immagine it is their own spirit which has the evil tendancies to commit sin. After all, Satan turned evil by himself, he didnt have his own Satan to tempt him?

Thanks for your insights.

cobbettj,

The spirits of man have no beginning and will have no end, they are eternal and immortal. "God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all" -Joseph Smith.

Here is a nice compilation of ideas from Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith:

In April 1844, the Prophet taught: “I have another subject to dwell upon, which is calculated to exalt man. … It is associated with the subject of the resurrection of the dead,—namely, the soul—the mind of man—the immortal spirit. Where did it come from? All learned men and doctors of divinity say that God created it in the beginning; but it is not so: the very idea lessens man in my estimation. I do not believe the doctrine; I know better. Hear it, all ye ends of the world; for God has told me so; and if you don’t believe me, it will not make the truth without effect. …

“I am dwelling on the immortality of the spirit of man. Is it logical to say that the intelligence of spirits is immortal, and yet that it has a beginning? The intelligence of spirits had no beginning, neither will it have an end. That is good logic. That which has a beginning may have an end. There never was a time when there were not spirits. …

“… I take my ring from my finger and liken it unto the mind of man—the immortal part, because it had no beginning. Suppose you cut it in two; then it has a beginning and an end; but join it again, and it continues one eternal round. So with the spirit of man. As the Lord liveth, if it had a beginning, it will have an end. All the fools and learned and wise men from the beginning of creation, who say that the spirit of man had a beginning, prove that it must have an end; and if that doctrine is true, then the doctrine of annihilation would be true. But if I am right, I might with boldness proclaim from the house-tops that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

“Intelligence is eternal and exists upon a self-existent principle. It is a spirit from age to age and there is no creation about it. All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement.

“The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.”

Though it is difficult for us to understand such things in our current temporal state, it helps to bear in mind that birth into this world did not bring us into existence, since we existend before. Likewise, we existed already when we were "born again" at our baptism, as children of Christ. Our relationship with God, that allows us to advance, is a covenant relationship - whatever it means specifically to "bear the souls of men", is still unknown to us (see D&C 132:63).

Regards,

Vanhin

Edited February 13, 2012 by Vanhin
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[Matthew0059]

When you learned the English language as a child, or whenever you learned it, did you really learn it line upon line? You may say 'yes' but really you did not, because you did not invent the English language. The establishment of the English language came about before you were born. You skipped over those lines and went straight to learning the language itself. ... you inherited the established language.

The language already existed- a person's understanding and mastery of it, however, comes line upon line, precept upon precept. First you begin with the alphabet, then go to words and vocab, etc.

We grow and learn line upon line, and we grow into the spiritual maturity required to inherit various kingdoms of glory.

Edited February 14, 2012 by Matthew0059

[Guest wengaga]

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[Guest tomk]

Satan cannot be in the temple? What if he were invited inside?

Is that doctrine? Or wishful thinking on our parts?

[kayne]

Satan cannot be in the temple? What if he were invited inside?

Is that doctrine? Or wishful thinking on our parts?

exactly. if a bunch of unworthy people enter the temple that is a way of Satan to enter. furthermore what if a person sells his soul to Satan while in possession of a temple recommend? its not like the people at the door do much more than scan your card.

i really dont see why Satan cant enter the temple given the proper circumstances.