What Does It Mean To Get Saved?

[prisonchaplain]

If I had to summarize your point in one sentence, Traveler, what I'm getting is that accepting a free gift is still an exchange, so LDS cannot be blamed for saying that salvation requires 'investment.'

I understand the point. To me, though, an easier explanation of how our faiths explain salvation is this:

LDS: Salvation = Conversion + enduring to the end (which implies growing in sanctification, with works being a necessary component of the believer's life)

Evangelicals: Salvation = Conversion. Growing in sanctification, good works, etc. are all the maintening of the salvation already garnered.

My conclusion: LDS and Evangelicals are not nearly as divided on this issue as we think we are. On the other hand, this is a 'hot button' with evangelicals, so it's a hard one to get past. My pastor sat in our our Sunday School class last week, and he mentioned that this is the most troubling issue for him.

[Traveler]

My conclusion: LDS and Evangelicals are not nearly as divided on this issue as we think we are. On the other hand, this is a 'hot button' with evangelicals, so it's a hard one to get past. My pastor sat in our our Sunday School class last week, and he mentioned that this is the most troubling issue for him.

PC. Thanks for your patience. I am convince that there are more similarities than differences among all peoples of devout faith. For some reason many of what I think of as the borne again faiths and us “Mormons” have cultures of terms that are “hot buttons” of per-determined disagreement.

I have known Baptist and EV’s that are of high moral character. Their social values are quite similar to the LDS values. I do not know why we cannot be better friends. When I was growing up my extended family (long time LDS) was fearful of the EV’s and similar faiths. My grand mother told me to beware; feeling my life would be in danger when I went into the army.

Allow me to summerize the LDS notion of salvation according to me. Jesus Christ enables man to return to G-d. There are two parts. The first part is that Jesus Christ has overcome the fall and thus saved all mankind from death and hell. The ancient scripture (Hebrew) notion of hell is in essence death. This is the free gift. No one has to accept or acknowledge anything - the gift is free to all mankind. All will be resurrected. The free gift also delivers us from the sins of the world and the sins of others and any effects that such can have on us.

The second part of salvation is the deliverance directly from our own sins. This requires a contract (covenant) whereby we promise to give our sins to Jesus and in return he frees us from the bondage that come from our sins. We have all observed, through sad experience, that some really do not want to give all their sins to Jesus. They like to keep for themself some of their favorite ones. Those that refuse to give up all their sins will be resurrected to what is called a telestial kingdom. Those that are willing to give up their sins but are not willing to accept Jesus as their master teacher in all things are resurrected to what is called a terrestrial Kingdom. Those that are willing to give up all their sins and partner with Jesus for the service, love and sake of others are resurrected to a celestial kingdom. It appears to me that EV’s like yourself are understanding of the great acts or works of service for others and the concept the “in as much as you have done it unto the least of his (Jesus’) brothers you have done it unto him.”

There are many places we see this 3 part deliverance for man. Perhaps the most interesting type and shadow is the epoch of Noah and the deliverance of his three sons that demonstrate the covenant (nations) or celestial, the gentile (nations) or terrestrial and the infidel (nations) or telestial as represented in Shem, Jepheth and Ham. I am not trying to convince you of any doctrine but to make you aware of the complete LDS view of salvation and deliverance. Though you are not LDS, I think of you as of the celestial variety but please do not feel I am trying to judge - it is just that you seem to me to be a kindred spirit. Perhaps if we were to discuss these points in detail as we have other things we could find many ways to agree.

The Traveler

[Traveler]

One other notion that I forgot to include is what is known to LDS as the doctrine of "unprofitable servants". I think this touches on what many EV's misunderstand about the LDS earning salvation. The notion of unprofitable servants is that we will always be in great debt to G-d. Because G-d loves his children he makes known his will concerning works of righteousness. G-d blesses us with many things and whenever we acknowledge his service and mercy towards us and we try in various ways to show appriciation he blesses us even the more and in ways greater than our love and service towards him. Thus we cannot earn anything for he will bless us many times over what ever we have done to repay him. We will always be unprofitable servanst and in debt to G-d even though we please G-d with whatever he asks of us.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Sorry, wrong thread.

[prisonchaplain]

I do not know why we cannot be better friends. When I was growing up my extended family (long time LDS) was fearful of the EV’s and similar faiths. My grand mother told me to beware; feeling my life would be in danger when I went into the army.

This is easy. Most evangelicals believe that most LDS believe that their works save them. To us, such thinking is arrogant, and goes against our understanding of being born again. Since you're not born again, you remain lost in your sins, and will likely spend eternity in the bad place. So, good evangelical parents are loathe to expose their children to such heresy, and, even as adults, we might fear having fellowship with them that claims to be of us but aren't.

Likewise, many LDS believe that most evangelicals believe they can live their lives for the Devil, and then say a simple prayer on their deathbeds, and get a free ticket into the highest heaven. Such people would likely have 'flexible morals,' and my tempt my good 'aiming for temple worth' children to take the easy road of 'cheap grace' and totally miss out on the Celestial Kingdom. Since we want to be sealed together for eternity, such an end would be little better than evangelicals losing their kids to the flames of hades.

So, why do we get along? We both believe in what you call free agency, and we both have a steady enough spiritual walk that we're not threatened by those who beg to differ with us.

The second part of salvation is the deliverance directly from our own sins. This requires a contract (covenant) whereby we promise to give our sins to Jesus and in return he frees us from the bondage that come from our sins. We have all observed, through sad experience, that some really do not want to give all their sins to Jesus. They like to keep for themself some of their favorite ones. Those that refuse to give up all their sins will be resurrected to what is called a telestial kingdom. Those that are willing to give up their sins but are not willing to accept Jesus as their master teacher in all things are resurrected to what is called a terrestrial Kingdom. Those that are willing to give up all their sins and partner with Jesus for the service, love and sake of others are resurrected to a celestial kingdom. It appears to me that EV’s like yourself are understanding of the great acts or works of service for others and the concept the “in as much as you have done it unto the least of his (Jesus’) brothers you have done it unto him.”

Interesting way to describe it. I can shorten my summary even more now. You do not distinguish conversion from sanctification (holiness). That really is it in a nutshell. We evangelicals get 'em saved, and work on growing them in holiness. You bring them into the restoration and help them to walk in holy salvation.

There are many places we see this 3 part deliverance for man. Perhaps the most interesting type and shadow is the epoch of Noah and the deliverance of his three sons that demonstrate the covenant (nations) or celestial, the gentile (nations) or terrestrial and the infidel (nations) or telestial as represented in Shem, Jepheth and Ham. I am not trying to convince you of any doctrine but to make you aware of the complete LDS view of salvation and deliverance. Though you are not LDS, I think of you as of the celestial variety but please do not feel I am trying to judge - it is just that you seem to me to be a kindred spirit. Perhaps if we were to discuss these points in detail as we have other things we could find many ways to agree.

I would not argue that the Bible contradicts the notion of three heavenly kingdoms. I'm aware of Paul's vision that might be construed to hint at such. Having been convinced that Joseph Smith's revelations were true, you can go back and find some interesting hints and foreshadows. Such is a fruitful exercise. We trinitarians do the same.

Concerning 'unprofitable servants': That is very evangelical sounding. It might be something to encourage LDS to bring up in encounters with evangelicals very early on in conversations. :-)

[Traveler]

As I was reading this last post I realized what seemed to me to be some more areas of disagreement that may not be the disagreement I thought. In much the same manner that the EV’s tend to look at the LDS view of works as arrogant - the LDS tend to view the EV’s view of being Borne Again as arrogant.

The LDS faith believes strongly in the concept of being born again. We believe that such a spiritual rebirth is necessary to grantee one’s membership in the Kingdom of G-d (church). However, it seems to us that the EV view of this is very much self centered, self serving and arrogant. I think this is one on the biggest misunderstandings LDS have of EV’s. I point this out as a contrast to the EV view of LDS and works associated with salvation.

In the same manner that EV’s are careful about pronouncing their “Good Works” LDS are careful about pronouncing their spiritual rebirth. It is sort of - if someone is not spiritually in tune to realize devotions to G-d’s will, proclaiming one’s spiritual status (spiritually born) will be casting pearls before swine and if they are in tune any proclamation of spiritual status would be both unnecessary and unwarranted.

The Traveler

[prisonchaplain]

For a nuetral view, I present my grandmother. She's Lutheran (ELCA). One of her daughters married a Catholic, and converted. One of her sons, and the other daughter became Pentecostal. And, her other son (my dad) maintained a vague belief in God, but did not associate with any church.

When her Pentecostal children would ask her if she was "born again," she would bristle. No, no she wasn't. She grew up in the church, had always related to God, prayed to God, asked God to forgive her when she did wrong, and had no need for being born again.

She too thought such thought was arrogant. Me? I think she is born again. She's just turned off by the verbage.

Sometimes we get so comfortable with our own spiritual traditions and community that we allow ourselves to be shocked that others have no idea what we're talking about.