And Yet, Another School Shooting

[shanstress70]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/10/02/amish.shooting/index.html

If anyone thought they were safe, it was probably the Amish in their secluded one-room school.

And a teen in NV took a gun to school today. The school is currently in lockdown.

[Traveler]

When I was in high school I took my father's rifle to school to put a new finish on the stock and blue the barrel as a Christmas gift for my father. The rifle did not fit in my locker so I took it with me to the classes I had before shop, placing the gun on the floor beside my desk. I as not even asked what I was doing with the gun in school.

What has changed? Why have school children of our current society become murders of their peers? I do not believe that it is access to guns nor do I believe it is just the media - I grew up with guns in my bed room watching cowboys shoot each other on TV and in the movies - as did my friends. If someone was killed by gun it was an accident.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Maybe it has to do with the idea, "God is dead." As Nietzsche said, something has to take His place. Humanism and relativism has filled the void and maybe we are seeing some of the are ramifications. Just a thought.

Dr. T

[sgallan]

And yet there is so much hate, and killing, in the name of god as well.

Interesting that you think such of people like me however. Funny how something like this brings out peoples true feelings.

One more thought..... perhaps the most peaceful person on earth - though very spiritual - does not believe in a specific God. His name is the Dala'i Lama. If there was anybody, or religion I might emulate, it would be him and his.... and not one which would attempt to blame, and in a manner even hate, those not like themselves in a religious sense.

Just some thoughts....

[Dr T]

Good point Sgallan. Well done not "going off" on me. Nietzsche is the one that said it, I was just following to the conclusion. I don't think that people are naturally good. When left to our own devises, it think we turn into the Lord of the Flies. Murder just follows. Just my thoughts.

Dr. T

[sgallan]

When left to our own devises, it think we turn into the Lord of the Flies. Murder just follows. Just my thoughts.

Do you therefore consider me a murderer just waiting to happen?

Here is an idea, name me a time when you think "God was alive", and I will give you a run down of the historical conditions of that time.

[Dr T]

Sure Sgallan. I don't know you. I would like to think that you never would but does that mean that you couldn't/wouldn't? I think that anyone is capable of anything at anytime if the situation is right/wrong. Would you disagree?

[sgallan]

I would like to think that you never would but does that mean that you couldn't/wouldn't? I think that anyone is capable of anything at anytime if the situation is right/wrong. Would you disagree?

Agree. But what does a belief in God, or religion, have to do with it? I teach distance education. Most of my students are in Prison. Some of them are murderers. I think the belief in God percentage is well over 90%. Should I therefore draw the conslusion that the belief in God causes henious crime and even murder? Of course not. That is a logical fallacy.

[Dr T]

Thanks Sgallan,

I'd agree with that comment. It is a logical fallacy. You are not including all of the variables. Would you say that those inmates were "walking closely with God" (you define that for us) when they murdered? Would you not concede that those prisoners might claim a belief in God but not actually have a solid relationship with God (a life changing behavioral drive for moral action)?

I look forward to your thoughts,

Dr. T

[sgallan]

Would you say that those inmates were "walking closely with God" (you define that for us) when they murdered?

Oddly enough, I would say this is the case in three quarters of the situations. But much like God believers in other cultures become suicide bombers, a lot of these folks get caught up in a culture of crime, gangs, and so forth. It is what they were raised with.

Would you not concede that those prisoners might claim a belief in God but not actually have a solid relationship with God (a life changing behavioral drive for moral action)?

They think they do. But it seems to go wrong when they get out, and back into a world that doesn't want anything to do with them, except maybe to continue the punishment even after they have served their time. With some of the harshest adherents of this mindset, and law making, those who are self-proclaimed Christians.

[Traveler]

I will add a new thought to this discussion. I do not believe that a belief in G-d will cause a person to be peaceful. I agree with Sgallan that there is another factor. The first murder that is recorded in scripture was when Cain slew Able. It is interesting to note the role that Satan played in that murder. I am not an advocate of "Satan made me do it'. But it does appear to me that Satan has influence over some people more than others. I would submit that murder is the result of the influence of a unclean spirit.

It has always been interesting to me that many murders are made in anger and that afterwords the individual often suffers from remorse and regret. It seems to me that when a person is given into the influences of anger that they will do things that cause them regret and a feeling that it really was not their desire to kill. Then there are those that have come to enjoy their anger so much that they become "high" and do very much enjoy the killing - Ted Bundy comes to mind.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Thanks Sgallan,

I like this conversation. Thank you. As you said, "much like God believers in other cultures become suicide bombers..." that is just my point. They act in such a way that they are serving God through their actions (suicide and killing Infidels) while a true Christian would similarly follow suit to act in a way that is not harmful (refrain from murder because it is ungodly). I would also say that some 90 something percent of U.S. citizens claim Christianity-doesn't make it so. Quick personal info. My brother has been in and out of prison and gangs. Mexican mafia. I know what it's like to live with people like those you are talking about. I look forward to where this takes us.

Dr. T

Would you say that those inmates were "walking closely with God" (you define that for us) when they murdered?

Oddly enough, I would say this is the case in three quarters of the situations. But much like God believers in other cultures become suicide bombers, a lot of these folks get caught up in a culture of crime, gangs, and so forth. It is what they were raised with.

Would you not concede that those prisoners might claim a belief in God but not actually have a solid relationship with God (a life changing behavioral drive for moral action)?

They think they do. But it seems to go wrong when they get out, and back into a world that doesn't want anything to do with them, except maybe to continue the punishment even after they have served their time. With some of the harshest adherents of this mindset, and law making, those who are self-proclaimed Christians.

[sgallan]

while a true Christian would similarly follow suit to act in a way that is not harmful (refrain from murder because it is ungodly).

Then I would suggest to you that there are very very few "true Christians". And you couldn't even count yourself as one except by faith, because given the right circumstances you could also do the same..... and only have it on faith that you wouldn't.

Since you brought up the term "true Christian". Please define this.

[Dr T]

I agree to a certain extent Traveler. My agreement ends however in the instant of committing the sin/murder. I do not think that when you are being godly-you would not murder. When you act ungodly in whatever way-that is not godly. That is a self focused act not a God focused behavior. Regardless if Satan tempted you.

Sgallan,

True Christian. That is a good question. All I meant by that was a mere verbal claim, "I'm a Christian" does not mean you are. I think it is a change commitment to the God revealed on this Earth. Is that general enough for you. You make a great point-I did not mean to say that "a true Christian" will never sin/mess up as I unintentionally might have put forth. I mean murder/sin when done it is not a "Christian act" (Christian there meaning God seeking/focused behavior).

Dr. T

[sgallan]

I mean murder/sin when done it is not a "Christian act" (Christian there meaning God seeking/focused behavior).

Okay, all sin but even the murder thing can be hazy. Suppose you are a Commander in Chief, and order a legitimate military move that will no doubt kill people who are entirely innocent. Are they now "not Christian"? Also, since all are sinners, and you as a Christian sins, why are you different than the murderers in prison, who also sinned? To be cynical..... is there a top ten "sin list". If it is the Ten Commandments then I would suspect any POTUS is doomed.

Generalities are nice, but the details tend to be problematic.

[Dr T]

Thanks Sgallan,

OK. I've been through that in my head as we have been going. Another problem is the murder of non-Christians at the hand of Christians "in God's name." That is a hard obstacle for me to get around.

I would have to say that I do not believe there is a top 10 list. If you've broken one-as we all have-then you've broken them all. God is in the business of perfection. That is not achievable my human will alone. The Christian answer would have to be "Jesus and Him crucified" is a requirement for reconciliation. He alone covers where humans have fallen short. (This brings back the blasphemy against the H.S. issue-Which I think I'm getting a handle on). There is no difference between me and the murderers Sgallan. I have lied therefore I've murdered (sort of) and I cannot make up for that on my own.

Sorry, what is a POTUS? Sgallan, why haven't we talked (much) before sir?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[sgallan]

Sorry, what is a POTUS? Sgallan, why haven't we talked (much) before sir?

POTUS = President of the United States.

I'll have to get back to this tommorrow. I am tired and going to bed. :)

[Dr T]

Night. :)

[shanstress70]

Just my 2 cents... I don't believe these killings have anything to do with a lack of believing in God. I do not believe that atheists, agnostics, humanists, etc. are more likely to kill than Christians. In fact, I think they may be less likely because they think this is it. Christians believe this is merely a blinking of the eye and that life is for eternity, so in my mind, that means they don't see the finality of it. Take it a step further... remember Houston Mom who drowned her 5 kids? She did it so that her kids could go be with God, supposedly.

Although I'm a Christian, I will say that the non-believers I know are a more peaceful people than the Christians I know, as a whole. They give more to charity and volunteer more of their time trying to help humanity. I know some people will totally disagree with this, but it's just an observation of the people that I'm around on a daily basis. I grew up being taught that people who didn't believe in God were horrible, mean people. Once I got into the 'real world' my experiences to the contrary were almost laughable.

Like I said in the other thread about shootings (I think), I believe these shootings are the result of desensitization. Kids 'kill' in video games for sometimes hours a day, they see killings, or at least violence, on TV constantly, all while not getting the interaction from their parents to counter it all. I think it's possible for kids to play these games and be OK if parents take the time to explain the difference, and maybe to relate the news stories about heinous crimes, and the pain and suffering that they cause. Many parents today are working 60 hours per week so that they can have huge homes and new cars, and are disconnected from their kids. They never talk.

I'm sure there's more to it, but I definitely think desensitization plays a big part.

[Dr T]

Hi Shan,

You are missing what is underlying my comments. Without God-there is not objective morality. That's all.

Dr. T

[shanstress70]

Hi Shan,

You are missing what is underlying my comments. Without God-there is not objective morality. That's all.

Dr. T

I don't believe this statement is true.

[Dr T]

OK. Start a thread and show me how any other moral system is "Objective" rather than "subjective." Thanks Shan,

Dr. T