Unclean Spirits

[Traveler]

I have wondered if there is any connections to what appears to be an epidemic of senseless killings and the influences of unclean spirits in our society. In ancient scriptures we encounter Jesus casting out unclean spirits as often as he healed the sick. Unclean spirits seemed to be a rather common thing back then. In the Book of Mormon, the prophet Alma tells one dissenter that they were being influenced by a “lying spirit”.

It seems that the news is full of young couples where one kills the other and everybody that knew them is shocked because the killers were so “nice” but then we find out that there was a secret side where the killer was involved in some strange thing or some strange scam. Why would a popular minister’s wife (also popular in the congregation) kill her husband? And then we have the Mark Hacking case - all of which seem so out of character.

Now we hear that the killer of children at the Amish school, “hated” G-d. Does this not seem strange to anyone?

Consider the Gospel of John Chapter 8:34 “...Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.”

Verse 41 “Ye do the deeds of your father.....” verse 42 “....If G-d were your Father, ye would love me {and the things Jesus taught and stood for}.....” Verse 44 “Ye are of your father the devil and the lust of your father ye will do. He was a Murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth.....”

I submit that a sure indication of the influence of unclean spirits in a society is the increasing occurrence of murders that do not make any sense and the murderer having been hiding secrets (living a lie).

The Traveler

[Dr T]

That makes sense to me. Do you think those unclean spirits are always outside of ourselves?

Dr. T

[Traveler]

That makes sense to me. Do you think those unclean spirits are always outside of ourselves?

Dr. T

Interesting question - it is my opinion that we could make room for them (inside ourselves) both knowingly and un-knowingly. For example - some people (including posters on this forum) seem to enjoy having a relationship with a continuous spirit. I am not sure they understand what they envite.

The Traveler

[Dr T]

Just reading, "contentious spirit" brings up negative images for me. I wonder though, if contention is always negative. I think sometimes it is needed/useful.

Dr. T

[isaiah28]

Just reading, "contentious spirit" brings up negative images for me. I wonder though, if contention is always negative. I think sometimes it is needed/useful.

Dr. T

There is a difference between wrath and contention ... I just can't seem to put it into proper words, but 'contention' has something to do with 'contend' ... like contending for the sake of just being rebellious and competitive ... like stirring up a fight for the sake of fighting. Wrath seems to have more to do with vengeance and justice.

[Dr T]

Thanks Isaiah,

I was thinking about contending for "truth" vs. "falsehood" for example

Dr. T

[Jason]

I don't believe there is any real evidence for "unclean spirits" speaking about some kind of demon(s). However, I could accept an "unclean spirit" if it meant mental illness.

[BenRaines]

LDS Bible dictionary defines contention as: Strife, arguing, and disputations.

I do agree Dr. T. as to his view on to contend can be to fight for good or struggle for good but contention as defined above.

I do not think that there is any room anywhere for a spirit of contention.

Ben Raines

[Snow]

I submit that a sure indication of the influence of unclean spirits in a society is the increasing occurrence of murders that do not make any sense and the murderer having been hiding secrets (living a lie).

The Traveler

ooooh - ghosts and poltergists - sounds scary.

[Traveler]

I don't believe there is any real evidence for "unclean spirits" speaking about some kind of demon(s). However, I could accept an "unclean spirit" if it meant mental illness.

Interesting opinion - What kind of real evidence is there of mental illness? The closest person to the latest killer (his wife) did not notice anything. The bottom line is that it is hard to believe that a person with no sign of any problems - mental or otherwise - just ups and starts killing children they do not even know. That is a really big behavior change to be mental with nothing showing or warning. If you are sure it is something other than unclean spirits, that make more sense lets hear it. Until we know for sure - I suggest we keep an open mind until we know for sure what is or is not the cause.

The Traveler

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't believe there is any real evidence for "unclean spirits" speaking about some kind of demon(s). However, I could accept an "unclean spirit" if it meant mental illness.

Interesting opinion - What kind of real evidence is there of mental illness? The closest person to the latest killer (his wife) did not notice anything. The bottom line is that it is hard to believe that a person with no sign of any problems - mental or otherwise - just ups and starts killing children they do not even know. That is a really big behavior change to be mental with nothing showing or warning. If you are sure it is something other than unclean spirits, that make more sense lets hear it. Until we know for sure - I suggest we keep an open mind until we know for sure what is or is not the cause.

The Traveler

Repressed emotions. People can and do just "snap" mentally when the weight of their own thoughts finally breaks them down. If you want more info than that, I'd have to get some scholarly journals. I'll do it, but I just don't have time right now.

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't believe there is any real evidence for "unclean spirits" speaking about some kind of demon(s). However, I could accept an "unclean spirit" if it meant mental illness.

Interesting opinion - What kind of real evidence is there of mental illness? The closest person to the latest killer (his wife) did not notice anything. The bottom line is that it is hard to believe that a person with no sign of any problems - mental or otherwise - just ups and starts killing children they do not even know. That is a really big behavior change to be mental with nothing showing or warning. If you are sure it is something other than unclean spirits, that make more sense lets hear it. Until we know for sure - I suggest we keep an open mind until we know for sure what is or is not the cause.

The Traveler

Repressed emotions. People can and do just "snap" mentally when the weight of their own thoughts finally breaks them down. If you want more info than that, I'd have to get some scholarly journals. I'll do it, but I just don't have time right now.

Another very interesting theory: I guess that 50 years ago we were not so involved in repressing our emotions and today our society requires much more compliance with social norms?

The Traveler

[Traveler]

<div class='quotemain'>

I submit that a sure indication of the influence of unclean spirits in a society is the increasing occurrence of murders that do not make any sense and the murderer having been hiding secrets (living a lie).

The Traveler

ooooh - ghosts and poltergists - sounds scary.

Perhaps you will take this more seriously when your daughter is abused and murdered - It is always interesting to me how terable things have so little effect with some until it touches closer to home.

The question we ought to ask ourselves - are we just seeing the beginnings of things (warnings) or can we ignore this stuff because these things will soon go away and never really amount to much? What do you think it would take before things no longer sound scary and are scary?

The Traveler

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't believe there is any real evidence for "unclean spirits" speaking about some kind of demon(s). However, I could accept an "unclean spirit" if it meant mental illness.

Interesting opinion - What kind of real evidence is there of mental illness? The closest person to the latest killer (his wife) did not notice anything. The bottom line is that it is hard to believe that a person with no sign of any problems - mental or otherwise - just ups and starts killing children they do not even know. That is a really big behavior change to be mental with nothing showing or warning. If you are sure it is something other than unclean spirits, that make more sense lets hear it. Until we know for sure - I suggest we keep an open mind until we know for sure what is or is not the cause.

The Traveler

Repressed emotions. People can and do just "snap" mentally when the weight of their own thoughts finally breaks them down. If you want more info than that, I'd have to get some scholarly journals. I'll do it, but I just don't have time right now.

Another very interesting theory: I guess that 50 years ago we were not so involved in repressing our emotions and today our society requires much more compliance with social norms?

The Traveler

I assume sarcasm in that last statement. While it may not appear to be the case, selectively few people are really as outspoken as our media would portray. Guess I'll have to do some research.

[Traveler]

I assume sarcasm in that last statement. While it may not appear to be the case, selectively few people are really as outspoken as our media would portray. Guess I'll have to do some research.

There is some sarcasm but I am trying to come to some sense of reason. Something has changed in the last 50 years. We had mental illness 50 years ago but we did not have the problems we do now. It would appear to me that the methods and concepts of the experts have made things worse and not better. This leaves me with the impression that the experts do not know what they are doing and investing in what they offer is likely to continue with the current trend.

The other thing that causes me to wonder - Why is considering the possibility of a dark spiritual influence to be dismissed without reason for doing so. If there is compelling reason then lets hear it. I find it interesting that the idea or good and bad spiritual influences in humanity is so easily dismissed by those that do not appear to have a better explanation to me. Giving it another name - like mental illness does not present a solution to me. Especially if the results of following such a course does not produce better results - only worse results.

How come when someone snaps from mental illness they do not do something beneficial or good - how come it turns out bad. How come some prison inmate does not snap - go nuts and start being kind?

The Traveler

[Jason]

There is some sarcasm but I am trying to come to some sense of reason. Something has changed in the last 50 years. We had mental illness 50 years ago but we did not have the problems we do now. It would appear to me that the methods and concepts of the experts have made things worse and not better. This leaves me with the impression that the experts do not know what they are doing and investing in what they offer is likely to continue with the current trend.

I think you're looking at it differently. It's not that our society didn't have the problems 50 years ago, it's that mental illness was hidden away, people were sent off to "institutions", and frankly we're more open about it today. What you are noticing is that we actually acknowledge mental illness today in a way that would have been unheard of 50+ years ago.

We also have more people being diagnosed today than before. We're also realizing that most (yes most) people have some sort of disorder, even if they don't realize it. (In fact just yesterday I was browsing through the DSM-IV-TR, and realized I had a "vocal tic" when I was a kid. I also have OCD. 50 years ago, I would never have know, nor would I have said if I did...).

The other thing that causes me to wonder - Why is considering the possibility of a dark spiritual influence to be dismissed without reason for doing so.

Good question. Probably a lack of any real evidence. Sure, the "Exorcist" is supposed to be based on real events, but nobody's taking "posession" seriously. Now, if BYU psychologists were to try and conduct scientific research in the area, and came up with something worth presenting in a scholarly journal, then you'd have at least something to stand on. But until that time, it's all just hearsay and speculation.

[Traveler]

I want you to see the contradictions in your posts.

I think you're looking at it differently. It's not that our society didn't have the problems 50 years ago, it's that mental illness was hidden away, people were sent off to "institutions", and frankly we're more open about it today. What you are noticing is that we actually acknowledge mental illness today in a way that would have been unheard of 50+ years ago.

We also have more people being diagnosed today than before. We're also realizing that most (yes most) people have some sort of disorder, even if they don't realize it. (In fact just yesterday I was browsing through the DSM-IV-TR, and realized I had a "vocal tic" when I was a kid. I also have OCD. 50 years ago, I would never have know, nor would I have said if I did...).

Note that you are saying we can diagnose better today and that 50 years ago mental ill people were sent off to institutions. Now I want you to see what you posted just a little while ago.

Repressed emotions. People can and do just "snap" mentally when the weight of their own thoughts finally breaks them down.

This implies that this kind of mental illness can not be diagnosed any better today than 50 years ago. Otherwise we would be able to spot someone about to "snap" from repressed emotions. The fact that 50 years ago it did not happen (if it did not near as often) than it does now. This could only mean that either the problem really did not exist 50 years ago or that society was doing something 50 years ago to prevent it or that society to day is doing something to cause it. In my mind this shoots down the mental ill argument - unless something society is doing now causes more and worse mental illness than 50 years ago. Which again points to the conclusion that the experts do not know anything and are just as likely to make the problem even worse. This argument alone should suggest the consideration of a view currently not popular.

The other thing that causes me to wonder - Why is considering the possibility of a dark spiritual influence to be dismissed without reason for doing so.

Good question. Probably a lack of any real evidence. Sure, the "Exorcist" is supposed to be based on real events, but nobody's taking "posession" seriously. Now, if BYU psychologists were to try and conduct scientific research in the area, and came up with something worth presenting in a scholarly journal, then you'd have at least something to stand on. But until that time, it's all just hearsay and speculation.

The concept of the Exorcist is something I agree is off the deep end. I have never suggested a possession. What I have suggested is influence. Most of us are aware of the influence of peer pressure and how under such influence people (especially teenagers) will do things they would never otherwise do on their own. We are also aware of modern "brain washing" methods of modifying behavior. Peers applying pressure and scientist brain washing someone do not take possession of others but they are able to change behavior through methods of breaking down resistances and making suggestions. If there are unclean spirits are we to assume that they are so dumb that they are not aware of things we understand and are aware of? If scientist can break a person down and cause them to murder someone - why are we so willing to write off the possibility (demanding proof) that dark spirits understand even better such methods?

The fact that someone that went for years without hurting anyone - one day suddenly starts murdering people they do not even know and the best argument is that they were mentally ill - and no one knew it. But we cannot consider anything else without proof - but we swallow the mental illness thing even when it does not make any sense.

The Traveler

[Jason]

Hey traveler,

I just read this, and thought I'd bring it to your attention.

If demons exist, might they be inhabiting my car?

I recently did a lot of work to my car, which is about 13 years old. I replaced every part that showed any sign of wear with brand new parts. Everything is like new. I put it all back together and drove it around for a while and everything worked fine. After a while though the engine developed a strange problem where it runs a little rough and surges, but only in 3rd gear. I checked and doublechecked everything, ran through several troubleshooting checklists from the service manual, and even took it to an expert mechanic who specializes in this particular make of car. I couldn't solve the problem and neither could the expert. The check engine light does not come on to indicate any problems.

So, my logical conclusion is that since there is no other explanation, my car must have demons inside the engine who are causing this problem. I have done everything I can to rule out all other possibilities, and this is the only explanation left.

There are plenty of Christians who believe demons exist, do any of them find it irrational or unbelievable to think one might be inhabiting my car?

Have a good one.

[Traveler]

Hey traveler,

I just read this, and thought I'd bring it to your attention.

If demons exist, might they be inhabiting my car?

I recently did a lot of work to my car, which is about 13 years old. I replaced every part that showed any sign of wear with brand new parts. Everything is like new. I put it all back together and drove it around for a while and everything worked fine. After a while though the engine developed a strange problem where it runs a little rough and surges, but only in 3rd gear. I checked and doublechecked everything, ran through several troubleshooting checklists from the service manual, and even took it to an expert mechanic who specializes in this particular make of car. I couldn't solve the problem and neither could the expert. The check engine light does not come on to indicate any problems.

So, my logical conclusion is that since there is no other explanation, my car must have demons inside the engine who are causing this problem. I have done everything I can to rule out all other possibilities, and this is the only explanation left.

There are plenty of Christians who believe demons exist, do any of them find it irrational or unbelievable to think one might be inhabiting my car?

Have a good one.

Thanks for your interest - I have thought about your story and I wonder. What happens when someone will not or cannot face their demons or just does not accept the possibility that there are demons to face?

We may argue the points of what demons are or how we are affected by the vast variety of demons. We may think of demons as symbols or a type of "mental illness". But if we as individuals or a society cannot face our demons - What should or can we expect?

The Traveler

[XtarsiA]

First post, and jumping in the deep end here but...

arent we spirits in a physical vessel of sorts, meaning there must be a way to let go or partially let go. so given the general lack of spirituality that apears to exist in the world of today, would it not be safe to assume that those people who are more ignorant of there current state, might be easily influenced by spirits who do not have a vessel of there own?

the evil one is noted in scripture many times as having the ability to "tempt" us , if we arent watching then who knows how far he would be able to go with such an ability.

as for mental illness, i would imagine it is a combination of external spiritual influences, and our weaknesses as we might succumb to the "natural man". The human brain as far as i see it is an intermediatory computer designed to make the physical plane easyer to manage for our spiritual selves. The more you let your brain take controll the less your spirit is in controll. Obviously there are many many "programs" in the brain and our own controll over each of them would be different for each.

so yeah...

hi lol

[Dr T]

Welcome X,

You said,

The more you let your brain take controll the less your spirit is in controll.

That is an interesting idea. Would you say that they are functioning simultaneously (that is if there really is such a thing as "spirit"?

Dr. T

[boyando]

<div class='quotemain'>

I don't believe there is any real evidence for "unclean spirits" speaking about some kind of demon(s). However, I could accept an "unclean spirit" if it meant mental illness.

Interesting opinion - What kind of real evidence is there of mental illness? The closest person to the latest killer (his wife) did not notice anything. The bottom line is that it is hard to believe that a person with no sign of any problems - mental or otherwise - just ups and starts killing children they do not even know. That is a really big behavior change to be mental with nothing showing or warning. If you are sure it is something other than unclean spirits, that make more sense lets hear it. Until we know for sure - I suggest we keep an open mind until we know for sure what is or is not the cause.

The Traveler

Traveler

Sometimes we point to one reason, why the increase in murders such as these. I think that satan is useing every trick he can, including unclean spirits.

On my list, I would add the devalueing of LIFE. How about the "me" generation and our concern with ourselfs, and the so called needs that we have?

We now live in a world, were a man can stick a gun in another mans face and say 'I need your car". If the gun goes off and the car owner is killed, the killer, if caught, will not be punished, eqaul to the crime, but according to how good or bad his lawer is. Were is the value of the life of the man who is killed?

I could list a whole lot more tricks that satan has up his sleave, but Traveler, this is your thread, so I will let the topic go back to unclean spirits. allmosthumble

[XtarsiA]

Welcome X,

You said,

The more you let your brain take controll the less your spirit is in controll.

That is an interesting idea. Would you say that they are functioning simultaneously (that is if there really is such a thing as "spirit"?

Dr. T

funtioning simultaneosly - yes.

as for is there such a thing as a spirit - i cant proove that here, but i personally belive so.

but, spirit could well be replaced with the idea of an individual part of your brain, functioning as your main observation area, and the rest of your brain being the processor(s) that has controll over everything else.

we most certainly dont get to 100% "observe" everything our eyes see and our skin touches ect, so it would seam reasonable that there are very large parts of the mind we have very little controll over, the more we learn about our selves and our impulses / instincts the more we can gain controll. will power ect is our ability to gain controll of our own minds... that in itself is an interesting phrase lol.

[Princess3dward]

I believe in deamons.

I needed to get one out of my room..

[Dr T]

Thanks X,

I thought you were saying when one is being used then the other is not (and vice versa). You were not saying that.

Thanks,

Dr. T