Low Religion = Death Of Europe.

[Fiannan]

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08...ion-cover_x.htm

Interesting how the lack of religion is now becomming more and more recognized as the reason birthrates are so low in Euroland. I have made it a project to finish reading the Koran -- I suppoose one part that may be inspired is the stress that nations come along, grow in prosperity which leads to ignorance coupled with arogance, and then God wipes them out. The Koran uses the phrase often that societies are given a time to be destroyed when they reject God.

Europe is the proof.

[prisonchaplain]

We have three girls. In the non-LDS/Catholic/Muslim world, that makes us a large family. Hey, we even got a 3-row SUV this year.

But, by traditional, biblical standards I suppose we barely qualify for a 4-door sedan, huh?

[Heather]

The best part of that study:

"The biggest single consequence of the declining role of the church is the huge decline in fertility rates," Inglehart says. With fewer people entering the workforce, countries like Italy, Germany and France won't be able to maintain the generous welfare programs that have given most workers a lifetime of economic security.

I'd never live in Europe/UK because of their welfare system. It'd be so frustrating to see such a large part of my paycheck going to pay for people to sit around and do nothing when they're perfectly capable of working.

[LionHeart]

The best part of that study:

"The biggest single consequence of the declining role of the church is the huge decline in fertility rates," Inglehart says. With fewer people entering the workforce, countries like Italy, Germany and France won't be able to maintain the generous welfare programs that have given most workers a lifetime of economic security.

I'd never live in Europe/UK because of their welfare system. It'd be so frustrating to see such a large part of my paycheck going to pay for people to sit around and do nothing when they're perfectly capable of working.

The idle man shall not eat the bread of the laborer.

I also understand that the morals are very low over there.

[pushka]

Awww, Heather and Lionheart, you make it sound like we're all soo bad,

It is an unfortunate fact that some people do take advantage of our welfare system, are capable of working but choose not to, and claim benefits instead. However, unfortunately there as just as many, if not more, people who are more than willing to earn a living, but for whom a job is not available, or the only jobs available are paying less than the minimum rate (illegally), or are paying the minimum rate and overworking their staff.

Also, the welfare system is to protect those people who cannot work due to illness, and to secure the welfare of the elderly.

We do have a mixed system, in that many workers do take out private pensions so that their state pension is supplemented when they have to give up work due to their age, and also we do all pay National Insurance which in part pays for the benefits that we need to claim if we have to give up work due to longterm sickness.

The morals over here aint that bad either, ya know!! no worse than anywhere else in the developed world, I would think...

[Jason]

Don't listen to them Michelle. They're just a bunch of pseudo-puritians.

As for moral decay, until someone produces some statistical numbers, and a measure of what constitutes morality, I'd ignore every post on the subject.

As for welfare programs, people who deride welfare probably don't have a clue what they're talking about. And when most of these "anti-welfare" folks are living on Social Security programs in their old age, just as their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents did, you won't hear them ######ing anymore.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2005-08...ion-cover_x.htm

Interesting how the lack of religion is now becomming more and more recognized as the reason birthrates are so low in Euroland. I have made it a project to finish reading the Koran -- I suppoose one part that may be inspired is the stress that nations come along, grow in prosperity which leads to ignorance coupled with arogance, and then God wipes them out. The Koran uses the phrase often that societies are given a time to be destroyed when they reject God.

Europe is the proof.

Fiannan, you usually are more level-headed than this. What's happened?

Seriously folks, Bishop John S. Spong wrote the book on why "Christianity must change or die." Has anyone read it yet?

[pushka]

Hi Jason,

Thanks for the support!! :)

[sgallan]

Given this nation locks up a higher percentage of it's populus than any other developed nation.... by quite a lot (about 2,000,000 or so)..... I find it interesting some could suggest we are somehow the more moral nation. Given there are an awful lot of people without healthcare (including me at the moment), I would question the morality of a country that cannot take care of the basic needs of it's own citizenry.

I think I'll take their morality over ours. I can't help but notice a lot of so-called god fearing nations, aren't very nice. Like ours.

[Fiannan]

Okay, now I have to defend Europe's morality? Yes, I will.

Europeans are no more likely to be lacking in morals than any other people. In fact, countries like Sweden probably have lower numbers of sexual partners than the US does for its people. The problem is the view of life.

Secularism ignores God or rejects God. The average Italian Catholic is not an agnostic or atheist infidel, instead the young have put materialism ahead of maternalism -- same is evidently occuring in Ireland. The average Scandinavian is indoctrinated into the idea that religion is for losers and one should devote their lives to individual fulfillment (hedonism) and feminism. Germans probably have a low birthrate because so much of the world seems committed to rubbing their collective noses into the brief history of the 3rd. Reich and making one ashamed of their heritage.

A secular climate coupled with hatred of one's past and devotion to materialim leads to people who are afraid to commit and even more afraid to have children. If they do have kids there is little focus on the family as an autonomous unit (witness how Germany continues to persecute families who try to homeschool) so one should not be surprised at the lower birthrates.

Of course, if people would absolutely reject the current system this could turn around but there is little in the ideological history of Europe to support the rejection of the prevailing norms. The thing the US should learn from Europe is what danger is posed by adopting such "values" and sinking into the oblivion Europe is heading.

[prisonchaplain]

Given this nation locks up a higher percentage of it's populus than any other developed nation.... by quite a lot (about 2,000,000 or so)..... I find it interesting some could suggest we are somehow the more moral nation. Given there are an awful lot of people without healthcare (including me at the moment), I would question the morality of a country that cannot take care of the basic needs of it's own citizenry.

Now wait just a minute! Europe has welfare for those too lazy to work. The New World uses prison for those too lazy to work 'by the rules.' Think of prisons as moral welfare states, and it's not so bad. :-)

[Fiannan]

Fiannan, you usually are more level-headed than this. What's happened?

Jason, I am not making this a morality v. immorality thing (at least not in the way it might be generally discussed in the US). It actually is more related to ideology -- one's very basic or even sub conscious perceptions of the world, their place in it and the values they place in accomplishments in life.

If a country made up of Muslims bought into the "values" of Europe they would suffer the same decline as Europe is facing. If a nation of atheists were highly nationalistic and (while rejecting religion) were highly prideful in their heritage and advancing whatever cause they had they would likely have a high birthrate (evidence for this might be the higher birthrate enjoyed by the Warsaw Pact under communism).

The worse combination though seems to be lack of religion, lack of national or family pride, hyper materialism, feminism and socialism rolled into one. That's why the EU is in such sad demographic shape.

[sgallan]

The New World uses prison for those too lazy to work 'by the rules.' Think of prisons as moral welfare states, and it's not so bad. :-)

LOL.... funny stuff. ;-)

[Heather]

Awww, Heather and Lionheart, you make it sound like we're all soo bad,

No I don't think you're all bad There are a lot of very hard working individuals out there; who else would be paying for the rest to sit on their backsides? When someone on my husband side of the family says that they don't know what they'll do if they get kicked off welfare, because they won't be able to survive on the pay of a normal job, something is definitely wrong. My brother-in-law will sometimes work 70-80 hours a week in England. Even though he is getting paid overtime for it, it is considered that he is working a 2nd job. The amount he pays towards taxes is insane. He hardly makes anything off the extra hours. (Let alone being taxed at a much higher percentage rate for the first 40 hours then he would be here.) No wonder they are looking to move away from there. Even if we did move to the UK, I wouldn't want the "free" health care. I think my father-in-law waited almost 21 months to have his gallbladder removed.

Jason, what social security? Does anyone still believe it's going to be there when we retire, let alone actually live off of it? Even my grandparents didn't live off of social security. I was also addressing the welfare system in Europe, not America.

[prisonchaplain]

Living on Social Security, or even partially so, is not welfare. It is receiving a return on retirement investment--one with a very low interest rate, btw. Nobody should feel guilty for taken from that till!

[Brother Dorsey]

. And when most of these "anti-welfare" folks are living on Social Security programs in their old age, just as their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents did, you won't hear them ######ing anymore.

Wow Jason.....I don't know about you but I've been paying into the Social Security program for 30 years and when I retire I'll get it all back....and yes I won't complain anymore about footing the bill for Welfare because I won't be paying it after I retire!

PS: Did you get your check this month?

[Jason]

<div class='quotemain'>

. And when most of these "anti-welfare" folks are living on Social Security programs in their old age, just as their parents, grandparents and great-grandparents did, you won't hear them ######ing anymore.

Wow Jason.....I don't know about you but I've been paying into the Social Security program for 30 years and when I retire I'll get it all back....and yes I won't complain anymore about footing the bill for Welfare because I won't be paying it after I retire!

PS: Did you get your check this month?

That's an interesting insult BD. Do you think Jesus would have been a proponent of Capitalism? Do you think Jesus is happy that you have more than someone else?

Do you get a "burning in the bosom" when you see yet another multi-million dollar meeting house being built in your area, while thousands of homeless wander the streets around it? Do you figure that "poor" people want to be that way, or that they are just lazy and don't work hard enough?

Back to your insult. Have I ever been helped by "The System"? Oh yes. My wife and I used WIC to help with our first two children. And Medicare paid the $35,000 bill for my second daughter for her 17 day stay in the NICU after her birth. I have no health insurance (like most of America) and my three daughters are covered by my state's CHIP program. It's a blessing from God if I've ever had one. And considering I spend over $800.00 a month on child care ($1100.00 in the summer), I'd never be able to pay for health care on my own.

My wife and I will continue to make more and more money each year, and shortly our needed help can go to someone else. But Im very grateful for what we've received from "the government," and would only be happy to give more of my money to the government so that other families can have access to decent medical care.

So screw you.

[prisonchaplain]

Jesus was not off-put by the fact that some had more than others. At the same time, he was most pleased with the poor widow who gave her all to the Temple treasury (which I'm sure maintained extravagant religious buildings, among other things).

On the other hand, of course Jesus wants us to help those who cannot help themselves. Although I'm not a member, I'm convinced the Salvation Army has a special place in his heart.

Now, here's an irony. Pentecostals were almost exclusively on "the wrong side of the tracks" for the first half-century of our existence. We were more poor than rich, for sure. We're still not high-end in most communities. Yet, typically, our people vote...well the way most evangelicals are said to vote--only more so.

Jesus wants us to use the reason he's given us, and make the most righteous choices we can. Political involvement? Yes. But, never forgetting to seek first his kingdom and his righteousness.

[Fiannan]

Is the Bible capitalistic? Not really -- at least not in the modern sense. Is it socialistic? Certainly not.

In Isaiah we find the scripture (chapter 8) in which the idea of monopoly (verse 8) is harshly condemned. Teddy Roosevelt would be quite happy with the message here.

In The Parable of the Talants Jesus presents a very strong endorsement of investment oriented free enterprise.

The scriptures do not endorse state-controlled socialism but do promote the idea of morality and ethics (much the same as the capitalism promoted by Adam Smith). The spirit of globalization of economic liberalism as we see today is harly even close to that ideal.

[BenRaines]

Remember folks, NO PERSONAL ATTACKS,

Thanks

BenRaines