Red-i'm Interested

[Dr T]

Hello Red,

Nice to meet you. You said, "If anyone is interested" well here I am. Whatever reason you have for believing what you believe, I'd love to read it and discuss it.

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Red]

Hello Red,

Nice to meet you. You said, "If anyone is interested" well here I am. Whatever reason you have for believing what you believe, I'd love to read it and discuss it.

Thanks,

Dr. T

What is your backround?

Also if we are to be true seekers of truth (as I still am in many areas) we must also be willing to settle on it when we find it, and not treat God like a museum exibit--not that you do but I have met those who do.

-Red

[Dr T]

Hello Red,

I'm Mexican-American from Los Angeles. That's my background. I'm a critical thinker and see the value of religious belief. Whatever you can share with me will be considered and I'll prob. ask you more questions about it. Do you feel comfortable with that?

Thanks,

Dr. T

[Red]

Don't worry, I'm totally comfortable with telling you as much as I know about what I trust in and explaining those beliefs. Just know that I've only been alive for 22 years, so I'm still young and dumb, in case it wasn't obvious.

I was mostly curious about your religious background, or lack thereof. It would give me a better idea of who you are and how to relate to you.

As for me: I grew up in a Christian home. White, mid-class, living in the San Diego area. I accepted Jesus as my Lord and Savior when I was five years old. I probably heard the Gospel in Sunday School. I still remember little songs like:

"Jesus loves me, this I know

for the Bible tells me so.

Little ones to Him belong

They are weak but He is strong..."

and: "Red and Yellow, Black and White

they are precious in His sight

Jesus loves all the children of the world..."

All of that must have sounded pretty good to five year old me. So one night when I couldn't sleep, I got up and asked my Mom if I could be a Christian. She said yes and lead me as I prayed, asking Jesus to forgive me of my sins and save me--acknowledging that He died and rose again for me. Spiritually, I died that night and rose again. Hence, I am born again, I am a new creation, I am one spirit with the Lord-literally, my spirit that was dead to God is now alive, being meshed with God's very nature. My condition is irreversible doc!!! hallelujah!!! Then, after that I was able to go to sleep, and so the Lord has always been my rest and peace.

As I grew up, and through high school, I found that my greatest joy was to see people repent like I had. Often, when someone would preach the Gospel, at the end of the message they would invite the kids to accept Jesus, and so everyone would bow their heads and close their eye to pray--except me, because I wanted to see who stood up, raised their hand or went forward to show that they had believed! I loved to see it!!! Once I was an usher at a Billy Graham crusade. Nothing flashy, he just gave the Gospel to a stadium full of people, and those who had believed poured out onto the baseball diamond and filled up the outfield...I remember feeling God's power in that place, it was like an invisible atomic bomb going off in slow motion--if that makes any sense.

So all this developed into a passion for evangelism and ministry. I am studying to be a pastor right now.

Now all that's a pretty warm and fuzzy picture, but I hope you have a good idea of what the lense is like through which I see the world.

I started with a child's unquestioning faith, but it has matured as it has been challenged. So If I could say in a sentence why I believe, it is because the faith that I started out with has been confirmed continuously through showing itself to be in harmony with and even explaing our common reality.

-Red

[Dr T]

Hello Red,

Thank you for your background info. Just so know, I've read the Bible and am familiar with Christian doctrine. I've explored different religions and really enjoy talking to people about their beliefs. Feel free to talk to me like a person who understands what you are saying. If I do not understand, I will ask for clarification. What I'm trying to say is, there is (probably) no need to start a square one with me. I'm glad to hear that your faith has matured throughout your life. I say that because, I hope your belief is based in something beyond, "That's what I was told about X." I am not here to convert you to anything or to tear down your beliefs but I will probably ask you some questions to see if they "hold up to scrutiny." :) You said that you are studying to be a pastor. Any particular denomination? Are you in seminary right now? If so, where? Undergrad? or Th.M? M.Div? Doc of Div.? I look forward to talking to you sir.

Dr. T

[Red]

Dr. T,

As far as education goes, I am but a wee babe! I did two years of general education at a community college (where I met, Jenna, my bride to be), and I am now a senior at a private Christian College. They have a good system here for the Bible department. A Bible Major like myself can get a BA degree in one of three specialty areas: Missions, Pastoral and Exposition. It am going down the Pastoral track because it is where I feel lead, so I am taking a blend of courses in Bible, Theology, Hermeneutics, Homiletics, Counseling and Leadership.

I plan to graduate, find a job in the minstry, and get married this summer. After that I will hold off on seminary until Jenna finishes her teaching credential.

As I said, I am non-denomiational, which translated really means: I'm a of a conservative, evangelical/baptist persuasion! Though I am currently serving at a Wesleyan Church in the youth group and worship band, I will probably be ordained as baptist minister at some baptist institution. I can't really see that far ahead right now though.

One quirk with me though, while most EVs believe that the gifts of prophecy and tongues have ceased, I do not find any Biblical reason to justify their cessation, so I actually do believe that these gifts are active today. One note, no reasonable baptist would say that these gifts could never come back, and when I am confronted with any kind prophecy, vision, or claim to speak in a tongue I ask: "Is it Biblical?"

For example, a prophesy or vision must first be in line with (confirm and/or compliment) God's Word, and second, it must also come true. These tests come out of Deuteronomy. As for speaking in tongues, the NT defines it as speaking an earthly language which you did not know, and lays out guidelines for using it in an orderly manner. When a whole congregation simply explodes into talking gibberish, or says that you must speak in a tongue to be saved, then it is far from being Biblical.

So perhaps I could simply be called a "Christian Bible Thumper!!!" I wonder if that would make a nice tattoo?...

-Roger

[Princess3dward]

I wonder if that would make a nice tattoo?...

There is no such thing as a nice tattoo.

[Red]

<div class='quotemain'>

I wonder if that would make a nice tattoo?...

There is no such thing as a nice tattoo.

I know, just kidding

Dr. T,

Where would you like to begin? What claim would you like me to back-up? Ask and I'll answer.

[Dr T]

Hey Red,

Congratulations on meeting Jenna and your plans to marry. Is your school non-denom or are you still in San Diego at Point Loma?

Thanks

[Red]

Thank-you for the congrats!

I never actually went to Point Loma though. We met at Palomar Community College in San Marcos, and I am now at San Diego Christian College in El Cajon, on the same campus as Shadow Mountain Community Church. If you have ever heard of Dr. David Jeremiah, he's the pastor and the interum president for the school.

So yes, my school is non-denom. but with a Baptist backround. I feel most at home in non-denom churches, though I have attended others (even LDS wards on a regular basis, if you'd believe that!).

But anyway Dr. T, enough about me, you're keeping this idiot in supense! What question would you like to start with?

-Red

[LionHeart]

Hey Red, I must say that it's been nice to have the opportunity to get to know you a little better.

You know, hostage negotiators advise people that if they are ever taken as a hostage, they should introduce themselves and share a little bit of their life with the goon. The purpose for this is because after you have done so, the goon begins to regard you as a person. This makes it much harder for them to kill you.

I bring this up because I want to point out that you will have a more fulfilling experience here if you take a more social approach (much like you have displayed on this thread so far) as opposed to a "U GUYS R BAD" approach.

It is doubtful that you will get any Mormons to turn away from their faith here, but a difference of religion shouldn't stand in the way of being friends.

I look foreward to more communication with you.

L.H.

[Dr T]

Hi Red,

Where to start? Well, it seems to me that you claim "My beliefs are right/true while your (LDS) is wronge/false" and the LDS would say, "Your beliefs are only partially right while our is fully reavealed and therefore right." From what do you base this claim? Why should I believe your claim and not theirs or vice versa.

Thank you,

Dr. T

[Latter Days Guy]

I did a quick search on the net and found this about the pastor of your church, seems that some EV's don't think he's EV enough and leading you all to hellfire and torment. He's listed there alongside Billy Graham, the pope and the usual suspects of mormonism and JW's and anyone who believes in Christian unity. Now I'm not saying I agree with them, but it doesn't take long to find someone who is ant against just about anything.

[Dr T]

Thanks GB-UK,

He endorses Billy Gram by saying that he reaches people by the thousands even millions. Why is that a bad thing? The suicide issue problem. stirs up issues. 12 step work-that website is anti 12 step-OK. The 12 steps and religious beliefs can work very well in unity (in my experience).

Dr. T

[Latter Days Guy]

Thanks GB-UK,

He endorses Billy Gram by saying that he reaches people by the thousands even millions. Why is that a bad thing? The suicide issue problem. stirs up issues. 12 step work-that website is anti 12 step-OK. The 12 steps and religious beliefs can work very well in unity (in my experience).

Dr. T

My point was that you can if you want to find similar anti stuff about just about anyone or any thing. Red is anti-LDS, it took me about 20 seconds to find stuff that was written against his church and pastor. Does that make it true? No, does that make the anti-LDS true, again the answer is no. People are very good at destroying other people, I for one cannot say a bad thing about Billy Graham yet the site I found have quite a lot to say about how evil he is. Utter rubbish.

[Dr T]

I C what you are saying GB. Thanks :)

[prisonchaplain]

I did a quick search on the net and found this about the pastor of your church, seems that some EV's don't think he's EV enough and leading you all to hellfire and torment. He's listed there alongside Billy Graham, the pope and the usual suspects of mormonism and JW's and anyone who believes in Christian unity. Now I'm not saying I agree with them, but it doesn't take long to find someone who is ant against just about anything.

You stumbled upon a fundamentalists website, hermano. They don't call 'em 'fightin' fundies' for nothing. I even read an article about how Florida Christian College thought Bob Jones University had gone liberal, because they were perceived to have gone wishy washy on the doctrine that the King James Version (1611) is the inspired Bible for English speaking peoples.

Westboro Baptist Church ('Rev' Fred Phelps--notorious picketer of gay and military funerals) has picketed the Assemblies of God, as well as Jerry Falwell's church. Badges of honor, imho.

Bottom-line: Just because some extremists will not compromise on ridiculous non-essentials, does not mean that we moderates should go the other way, and be willing to compromise core truths.

BTW, an extremist is anyone to the right/left of me.

[Princess3dward]

I don't think anyone should really jump to conclusions about what they find on websites.

It can so easily be scewed...

But for us LDS, LDS.org is usually a good bet!

[Outshined]

Yes, GB's point was well-taken.

[Dr T]

Where did Red go?

[Latter Days Guy]

Where did Red go?

Perhaps he will return in a years time An annual poster of sorts

[Outshined]

When I logged off Saturday we had a discussion going, then Monday his thread was gone and he has not posted since.

[Latter Days Guy]

When I logged off Saturday we had a discussion going, then Monday his thread was gone and he has not posted since.

Maybe he has been sin binned or banned? Maybe it was all a bad dream? Kinda reminds me of the shower scene from Dallas

[BenRaines]

That thread was removed by moderators. Red is still welcome to post.

I would remind all posters of Rule #2 prior to logging in.

Ben Raines

[Red]

Where did Red go?

I knew where I was, I just didn't know where this thread went! My other thread was deleted for obvious reasons, so i thought this one was too, until I checked out the general discussion.

L.H.,

I hear you with the more social approach. I will take your advice in the future, but also know that I come here not quite so much to challenge your beliefs but really to challenge mine. I do hope that perhaps someone will be persuaded, but I don't expect it. I post here, and other places to be better prepared when I meet a person face to face. If there is a balance between being confrontational and social while posting then I am the last person to have found it! I think I do better with people face to face, not that I convert them by the dozen, but they tend to trust me easier and have never said that I was demon controlled--tempers don't flare as easily in person, at least in my experience.

Dr. T,

So why should you believe my claims over the LDS claims? I won't go into specifics yet, (even if we'll be allowed to) but I"ll tell you of the first time I came contact with Mormonism:

Growing up EV/non-denom I knew virtually nothing about LDS. My dad had actually been a Mormon in highschool but not a typical one: His dad was an abusive agnostic/catholic and his step mother was a Navajo Shaman and a Mormon...how that worked, I don't know. After a failed marriage and two estranged kids he came to know the Lord in the 70's, and He has been blessed ever since.

He told me his memories of learning LDS doctrine about how Adam came to earth from some place named Kolob with one of his many wives and then ascended to be God (now the LDS church today does not teach this, but it should be noted that they apparently did in the 50's-60's while my dad went to their seminary classes during highschool). He also remebered them teaching that men could become gods. I remember one of the Junior high pastors doing a series on cults, and saying that in Mormonism Jesus and Satan are brothers. So, of course, to my young Bible-thumping ears none of this sounded "kosher" at all.

And then came a missions trip to Salt Lake, Utah where we (10 or so college kids, I had just graduated high school) brought the Gospel to the front gates of the Temple and went door to door for a week. I suddenly found myself up to my neck in mormonism, I had never even shared my faith before let alone defend it!

When confronted with the teachings of LDS Scriptures and prophets at this time, I noticed in me several reaction stages: 1) Laughing: "I can't believe they'd swallow this!" 2) Anger: "Why would they say that about my Jesus and lead others astrayay?" 3) Sadness/conviction: "they are doomed, my God we cannot leave them to fend for themselves, we must reach them." And amid all that was the terrifying thought: "what if I'm the one who's one the wrong side of the fence?"

I felt like I was standing on the edge of a cliff contemplating whether or not to jump off into the sea of Mormonism, and I almost did because I knew that above all, my commitment was to the truth as God sees it. But as I stepped back from both my faith and theirs and subjected both to the same tests and standards, it was the faith my father had chosen in the 70's that won out in the end. So why should you believe a Bible thumper over a Mormon? Because the Bible can back up its claims (and I imagine I'll be backing that statement up for some time now ).

And for you LDS: I prayed the prayer from Moroni 10 more than once. I asked repeatedly whether or not I was on the wrong side. The answer was always silence. The last time I prayed over this, two LDS missionaries challenged me to pray with them in their church and settle this thing once and for all, so I did. I realized that all along I had been praying to my trinitarian idea of God and not the LDS one. So I addressed "the God I hadn't prayed to" and asked him about the truth--for a half or more hour I actually turned away from my God and sought yours! The answer was silence again. Then slowly and softly an answer came from my old Friend upstairs, to the effect of: "oh you of little faith, he has no authority over you." And I was free.

Sincerly, Red.