The Holy Ghost reveals the truth of all things?

[cryophil]

I'm a lot confused about the Holy Ghost telling us the truth of all things.

First of all, as I read it in the BoM, the spirit causes us to feel peace. It causes a mighty change. It brings comprehension and a knowledge of the truth. The D&C section 9 tells us that a test of truth (at least during translation) is a burning in the bosom, or a stupor of thought.

Some of my research into this has led me to this page at LDS.ORG:

LDS.org - Archives by Topic - Conversion

What I see here is the following elements of a conversion:

1) Forever touched for good

2) Miracles of the heart being changed

3) Comprehension of truth made plain

4) Spiritual rebirth that changes what we desire and feel

But these elements are in all religions. All other branches of Christianity tell us their members are changed, touched for good, they have miracles of the heart, comprehension of the bible, a mighty change of heart and life to be born again.

Islam has a 5-step conversion process, and they preach that true conversion happens from inner peace. Hindus use the 3rd and 4th chakras to bring an inner guide that is powerful and life-changing.

Motivational speakers sell this same product--change your life and make your world better!

Buddhists lay claim to finding a new plane of awareness in meditation that opens the world view to things that cannot be verbalized.

How is it that other polytheistic, financial based or religions based on terror can also guarantee these same feelings for their followers? And why do they have billions of members, if it is a fraud?

how can I tell the difference between spirit and emotion?

A positive peaceful confirming feeling is something I also get when watching movies, thinking about science, reading about buddhism and so forth. I once had a major decision to make about a job, and I got that peaceful, confirming feeling that builds inner confidence. In fact, it was a feeling that made my chest feel like it would burst from being overjoyed and my head was like being on-fire with alertness and excitement, while at the same time feeling calm and peaceful about everything, love towards everyone. It was the same feeling I thought I had gotten when I felt I had gotten a testimony. Within a week of starting the job, I realized it was a huge mistake. Same thing getting married.

I don't think that peaceful feelings, even the strong ones that raise your mental alertness, make you feel like you're going to burst inside, have an overflowing of love for all humankind, these don't really mean something is absolutely true. They mean you feel good about it right then and there.

People the world over have these feelings all the time. People the world over get confused and down. These are just strong feelings.

So how does one really know the difference between these and the spirit?

[cryophil]

Also, I read Boyd K. Packer recent tell the youth this:

"It is not expected that you go through life without making mistakes, but you will not make a major mistake without first being warned by the promptings of the Holy Spirit...."

(see LDS Church News - President Boyd K. Packer: 'Counsel to Youth' )

The promptings of the Holy Spirit is a bit vague to me. What does that really mean?

On the other hand, Boyd K Packer said:

" The spiritual part of us and the emotional part of us are so closely linked that is possible to mistake an emotional impulse for something spiritual. We occasionally find people who receive what they assume to be spiritual promptings from God, when those promptings are either centered in the emotions or are from the adversary. "

(see The Candle of the Lord - Ensign Jan. 1983 - ensign )

If I am to understand, the state of the Holy Ghost telling us what is and isn't truth is not real clear.

So that brings me to another question:

How can I know that this method--feeling the truth-- is true? Given the confusion the world over about what these feelings are telling each person, it's a legitimate question to wonder about. Maybe this method isn't really the best or the most truthful way to the truth.

If there is an easy way to discern which is the spirit and which is emotion or the adversary, how can one know for sure? Doesn't seem very clear to me. I think most people just trust their feelings without really questioning them. But all feelings the world over can't all be truthful.

[prisonchaplain]

Ironically, the fact that many religions claim spiritual presence, observe some type of Golden Rule, etc. may reinforce the truth. After all, nobody will embrace counterfeits if there is no original.

[pntkl]

You may know the Truth, not necessarily always in the moment it is given, however by the sweet music that it plays. It is like a series of chords, played in unison, that to hear them, as they're intended, is to be at peace. It is to be in accord, with the Godhead, even with the Host of heaven. Its frequency resonates in unison with reality, that even throughout the expanse of time, that it has a pattern that is unmistakeable to those that may hear its ring. It is a feeling, it is a strength, it is a power; it is alive. Not a thing, or an object to be idolized; the Spirit is a being that sings so that you may bring your testimony, even your destiny. To know its sound it to cling to God. It is wisdom and understanding, it is counsel and might, it is the Spirit of knowledge and fear of the Father.

Love,

T.J. Wood

Edited April 24, 2012 by pntkl

[PeterVenkman]

Spirit

Being

Confronting the REAL

Authenticity

Beauty (in its platonic form)

the Sublime

Nonordinary reality

Apriori Knowledge

God

the Holy Ghost

Transcendence & Immanence

I believe that most, if not all, human beings have an experience like this at some point...and I also believe that influential people want to capture this experience and use it to help support the ideology (knowledge system) they promote.

I am not surprised that a variety of religious leaders, philosophers and thinkers have all latched on to the feeling that there is something DEEPER going on than we are attuned to in our everyday reality. Personally, I've felt it before so I believe it exists, but I'm undecided about whether it is a function of biology (the god gene / a specific component of our brain that creates the experience), spirit (an energy within, or a tapping into more primal flows), language (the point at which language begins to fail to capture meaning), or chemicals (DMT or an interplay between neurotransmitters). Regardless, it seems everyone wants to take this (very human) feeling and use it as an instrument to lend credibility to their beliefs. The fact that there are so many different names for the same feeling seems to prove as much.

I do find it fascinating, though, that these feelings/emotions/experiences are triggered most often in 3 specific situations:

1. Religious ritual

2. Meditation

3. Use of psychedelic drugs

[HiJolly]

I'm a lot confused about the Holy Ghost telling us the truth of all things.

First of all, as I read it in the BoM, the spirit causes us to feel peace. It causes a mighty change. It brings comprehension and a knowledge of the truth. The D&C section 9 tells us that a test of truth (at least during translation) is a burning in the bosom, or a stupor of thought.

That is not a global, definitive God-breathed mind-controlling decree. It is an example, a verbalization of an inner ineffable 'feeling' that not only (a) can be unique and different between different people but also (b) is generally very close to how people experience inspiration from God. It's not like reading from the repair manual for your clothes washing machine.

Some of my research into this has led me to this page at LDS.ORG:

LDS.org - Archives by Topic - Conversion

What I see here is the following elements of a conversion:

1) Forever touched for good

2) Miracles of the heart being changed

3) Comprehension of truth made plain

4) Spiritual rebirth that changes what we desire and feel

But these elements are in all religions.

I would say, almost all religions. I don't think Thelema qualifies. And why the word "But"? You don't believe God works with all His children, wherever they are and whatever they believe? It's in the scriptures, you know. He does. No "But" about it.

All other branches of Christianity tell us their members are changed, touched for good, they have miracles of the heart, comprehension of the bible, a mighty change of heart and life to be born again.

And there are many sincere Christians (and Muslims, Hindus, etc.) that have that experience indeed. Exactly. This is a problem? I would hope not!

Islam has a 5-step conversion process, and they preach that true conversion happens from inner peace. Hindus use the 3rd and 4th chakras to bring an inner guide that is powerful and life-changing.

Ok....

Motivational speakers sell this same product--change your life and make your world better!

Maybe it's the same for some, but in my experience, not very many.

Buddhists lay claim to finding a new plane of awareness in meditation that opens the world view to things that cannot be verbalized.

Yep. And not only them, either. Occultists, Magicians, anyone who meditates properly will find this to be true. This Mormon is wondering where on earth you're going with this...

How is it that other polytheistic, financial based or religions based on terror can also guarantee these same feelings for their followers? And why do they have billions of members, if it is a fraud?

Two very different questions, I think. You are asking amiss, I also think. If one follows certain rules of mental processing, one gets similar effects.

Do you know the difference between the influence of the Light of Christ, and the presence of the Holy Ghost? IMO, experience is the only way to begin to discern the difference. But it is a VITAL difference.

how can I tell the difference between spirit and emotion?

Experience, I think. Working with worthiness issues, altruism, equanimity and many other advanced mental/inner attributes of value. Feeling them work within you. Can you call the influence of the Holy Spirit within you a 'flavor'? If so, that's a good start.

A positive peaceful confirming feeling is something I also get when watching movies, thinking about science, reading about buddhism and so forth.

Great. That's a very good start, since there is truth to be found in all those things.

I once had a major decision to make about a job, and I got that peaceful, confirming feeling that builds inner confidence. In fact, it was a feeling that made my chest feel like it would burst from being overjoyed and my head was like being on-fire with alertness and excitement, while at the same time feeling calm and peaceful about everything, love towards everyone. It was the same feeling I thought I had gotten when I felt I had gotten a testimony. Within a week of starting the job, I realized it was a huge mistake. Same thing getting married.

Hmm... I got no answer at all about marriage, but I married my wonderful wife anyway. Our 30th anniversary is coming later this year. It has not been, nor is it a cakewalk. But surely worth it.

As to the 'false' feelings, I too have experienced what you have, by your description. Hard to sleep it was, as my mind was enflamed with the opportunities and feelings of 'sure' success that would unquestionably follow. But instead, I lost tens of thousands of dollars. A valuable lesson!

I don't think that peaceful feelings, even the strong ones that raise your mental alertness, make you feel like you're going to burst inside, have an overflowing of love for all humankind, these don't really mean something is absolutely true. They mean you feel good about it right then and there.

I agree, but I also agree that you are "a lot confused", as you said.

People the world over have these feelings all the time. People the world over get confused and down. These are just strong feelings.

So how does one really know the difference between these and the spirit?

Strong feelings are not always only feelings. Feelings are closer to the nature of God than are rational thought or logical arguments. So we usually have somewhat of an overlap when the spirit really pounds on us. That's been my experience, anyways.

Discerning between powerful feelings and feelings driven by the power of the Holy Ghost is very important. It takes much experience, patience and faith. And intelligence. And since it involves not only the subjective self, but also the non-rational (or extra-rational) mind, well. Be patient. Be prudent. Follow your covenants.

Best wishes.

HiJolly

[cryophil]

Thanks to those that responded. The general understanding I got from most of the replies is (1) spiritual presence and experience are universal and evidence that spirituality is real. Even if it resides or projects into our biology, there is something there.

(2) the experiences of other Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists (occultists, magicians...?) are legitimate and meant to bring one closer to God.

(3) the differences aren't as important as the commonality we share across the world with spiritual presence.

However, I still don't have an answer to my nagging question. Moroni's promise and the leaders as well promise that we can know if the church is true through the spirit, particularly by reading, praying and pondering about the Book of Mormon, which is unique to the LDS church. Since spiritual presence is found the world over, how can I use the spirit to tell me the Book of Mormon is true, if that same spirit is testifying that the Kuran, Bhagavad Gita, Theravada or Mahayana are also true, even though these texts teach profoundly different (and opposing) doctrines to the LDS faith?

HiJolly said that the spirit is unique and different for each person, that it's not like a manual. Is the path to the one-and-only truth really this obscure? Our very eternal life is at stake, and the method to get there seems overly confusing. Billions of muslims+hindus+buddhists are feeling strong pull and having life-changing experiences that testify of Alla or Vishnu or other Gods. How can those feelings by truthful? How can I know the ones I might get reading the Book of Mormon are "more" truthful?

Do you know the difference between the influence of the Light of Christ, and the presence of the Holy Ghost? IMO, experience is the only way to begin to discern the difference. But it is a VITAL difference.

...

Feelings are closer to the nature of God than are rational thought or logical arguments.

...

Discerning between powerful feelings and feelings driven by the power of the Holy Ghost is very important. It takes much experience, patience and faith. And intelligence.

This is a key I want to understand. If the LDS church is the one-and-only true church with revelation, priesthood authority and most-correct book/scripture, then I need to understand how to discern between good Light of Christ feelings and profound Holy Ghost experiences.

Any help to differentiate?

[skalenfehl]

D&C931 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

It happens in this order. For anyone. First clean the inward vessel. We must have a desire to root out any sinful desire. No unclean thing can enter into the kingdom in heaven, otherwise heaven must be a place of filthiness. We read this in the Book of Mormon. Book of Mormon prophets focused on preaching repentance and they emphasized this to the modern day reader.

Only when we are truly ready to align our will with that of the Lords, when we receive that mighty change of heart explained in Alma 5, which comes from a broken heart and a contrite spirit, will the Lord see fit to visit us. Many think that the Lord will answer a prayer so that once they receive an understanding, they can continue about their way on the same path. On the contrary, it isn't.

Once the Lord sees our willingness to CHANGE by showing that we have diligently been keeping his commandments, will He confirm to you what you seek, which of course is truth. And that truth is to "Come unto Him." When He said come follow me, He meant ALL THE WAY. This is what Moroni meant in his promise when he said, "with real intent."

Enos struggled in the spirit an entire day and night before he received his answer. We will not know our answer until we have truly wrestled with the Lord and sued him for what we truly desire. THAT is commitment. And you will know when you are baptized with fire.

[cryophil]

D&C931 Verily, thus saith the Lord: It shall come to pass that every soul who forsaketh his sins and cometh unto me, and calleth on my name, and obeyeth my voice, and keepeth my commandments, shall see my face and know that I am;

Thanks for that. In other words, there is no way to really know what is and isn't true without a long (life-long?) devotion first.

Other Christians, Muslims, Buddhists (and probably Hindus) claim the same thing. You have to devote and practice and sacrifice and obey before you'll know. Each of them defines a different God and defends a different doctrine.

Thus, I still am struggling to see how it is different. Does it really matter which church I belong to?

[pntkl]

Some lack of faith is not by a need for statements of A=A=true. Some desire is for statements of A=A=false. This is the Spirit's Truth, which speaks, when the paradoxical present temptation. Wantonness for what is pleasing to yourself is that which supersedes any understanding never found in whole through man's logic; which is steeped in bias. It is a desire to find contradiction in the faithful that meets with another contradiction: faithlessness. It is not a step of faith that these things are known--no, they are a leap of faith.

Out of covetousness, some would seek a sign. For which, they cannot receive, being confused not by what is overly difficult, rather by their contention. I will to only pray for you and to speak on what is ultimately important, concerning your questions:

Until you ask of God, in the name of the Son, loosing your bindings to a circular argument that did not find it's origins in this forum; you may not find that which is of the Spirit. There isn't simply a hop over the fence, in this kingdom many would demand entrance to, in which doing so makes one a stranger within. By the order of things, one must first truly seek and knock, so that the Son will answer. No one may do this for anybody, nor if they were to tell secrets would such be of understanding. For all vain pursuits, it is for naught. These things cannot be bought. If wrought by the Son personally; what man rejecting refinement would have the presence to know?

Listening to the faithful, concerning the things one holds strict convictions against is not for good purpose; yet it has been given here freely, where elsewhere it was met with exile. Having done so, facetiously, it is at a great price that those in belief are being tempted to stray.

Learning to know the Spirit of Truth isn't finding relative truths. The Light of Christ is the faithful's testimony; to be a City on a Hill. By way, the Light of the World, in absolute truth.

Saying that any spirit possessing some truths can be the same as the Holy Ghost is nearing an event horizon, a point of no return, wherewith one's die becomes cast, their fate sealed to spiritual death. My Father lacks no provision for those who evenly do not find themselves faithful in this mortal. Rather, it is by that which is in need of immortal, that it is so, yet even at greater cost of attainment.

Every purpose as it has been revealed is not for meant for a mockery. Slow to anger, yet one in their apathy does draw His wrath. For what point is willful ignorance not blasphemous? Undoubtedly, not all spirits are the same; that believers are to test them. What spirit is it that would seek of man into perpetuity, instead of eventually just asking God what is Truth?

Eternal glory is given not to those beholden to wicked thoughts, no matter how sweet their words on the surface my be. In finality, those so humble are recipients thereof, that would achieve perfection, to be given powers many desire use of to destroy. For there are no Gods, in the names you refer to, only His Children, some finding perfection; there is only one true God, who is my Father, your Father, who is to all the Father, even those given His power of life, to be one with Him, yet not preceding His Order--He is the Creator of all that is, was, and is to be.

Love,

T.J. Wood

[cryophil]

It is a desire to find contradiction in the faithful that meets with another contradiction: faithlessness. It is not a step of faith that these things are known--no, they are a leap of faith.

Out of covetousness, some would seek a sign.

Wait, are you saying that my asking how Moroni's promise works to get an answer is the same as covetously seeking a sign?

Until you ask of God, in the name of the Son, loosing your bindings to a circular argument that did not find it's origins in this forum; you may not find that which is of the Spirit.

I feel judged. I came here with what seem to me to be legitimate questions. Now I'm told that I'm not praying right, not trying hard enough or that I use circular arguments.

Please let me know what my circular logic is so that I can unwrest myself.

I appreciate that you're trying to give me love and help me, but I don't really feel it from your post. I felt judged and put down. Now perhaps I come off that way too. If I do, my apology.

[Vort]

Thanks for that. In other words, there is no way to really know what is and isn't true without a long (life-long?) devotion first.

How is this any different from math, physics, chemistry, Italian literature, or any other field in which you care to become more than passingly conversant?

Thus, I still am struggling to see how it is different. Does it really matter which church I belong to?

Yes, it matters.

[skalenfehl]

Thanks for that. In other words, there is no way to really know what is and isn't true without a long (life-long?) devotion first.

Other Christians, Muslims, Buddhists (and probably Hindus) claim the same thing. You have to devote and practice and sacrifice and obey before you'll know. Each of them defines a different God and defends a different doctrine.

Thus, I still am struggling to see how it is different. Does it really matter which church I belong to?

cryophil, you aren't the first that I have come across seeking such answers in this forum and others, as well as in person. I started another thread especially for you and many others in your position. That post comes from the heart and from over thirty years of struggling in the Spirit. I hope it sheds light.

There is only one God and only one Son of God. And the Son of God has been laboring in His vineyard since the beginning of time to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. God is a God of order and truth, not confusion. Confusion comes from man. It us up to us to find our way to Christ, but He has not left us alone. He has given us scriptures and many guides in the form of prophets and apostles.

If you are interested, here it is. I hope it helps in your journey:

http://www.lds.net/forums/lds-gospel-discussion/46167-coming-unto-christ.html

[HiJolly]

Thanks to those that responded. The general understanding I got from most of the replies is (1) spiritual presence and experience are universal and evidence that spirituality is real. Even if it resides or projects into our biology, there is something there.

I agree.

(2) the experiences of other Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists (occultists, magicians...?) are legitimate and meant to bring one closer to God.

(3) the differences aren't as important as the commonality we share across the world with spiritual presence.

Right.

However, I still don't have an answer to my nagging question. Moroni's promise and the leaders as well promise that we can know if the church is true through the spirit, particularly by reading, praying and pondering about the Book of Mormon, which is unique to the LDS church.

But hold on. Moroni's promise starts out speaking specifically about the things written in the Book of Mormon, but then most people, yourself included, seem to think he is speaking of the Book of Mormon literally, the physical book. But that's not what Moroni is saying. And then you expand the "things" to not only the physical Book of Mormon, but then to the institution of the Church. Why?

I don't think that's correct. Moroni didn't mean that at all! It's the same fallacy where some folks think that because Joseph Smith said that this was the most correct book on earth, that there wouldn't be anachronisms. That's just foolish! Or some people claim that because it is said that the Book of Mormon contains the fullness of the Gospel, it should talk about baptism for the dead, or polygamy. Nonsense.

Since spiritual presence is found the world over, how can I use the spirit to tell me the Book of Mormon is true, if that same spirit is testifying that the Kuran, Bhagavad Gita, Theravada or Mahayana are also true, even though these texts teach profoundly different (and opposing) doctrines to the LDS faith?

The truth of all things, cryophil. Puzzle over these quotes. They are 'true'.

The source of the difference in different religions is not that being observed, but the observer. -- Henry Ashcroft

The open-minded see the truth in different things: the narrow-minded

see only the differences. -- Author Unknown

As I was saying, there is truth to be found in almost every tradition and religion.

HiJolly said that the spirit is unique and different for each person, that it's not like a manual. Is the path to the one-and-only truth really this obscure?

It's not obscure to an individual person who applies these things to themselves. Sure, the principles by which the Light of Christ and the Holy Ghost operate are set into place and are predictable and equally available for all people on the same laws of applicability. BUT the impact (and therefore interpretation) of these things is personal, idiosyncratic and subjective. For you, your subjective thoughts, feelings and yes, even logic, is *real*. It is your experience, and no one else's. Know thyself, and it will not be obscure at all.

Our very eternal life is at stake, and the method to get there seems overly confusing. Billions of muslims+hindus+buddhists are feeling strong pull and having life-changing experiences that testify of Alla or Vishnu or other Gods. How can those feelings by truthful? How can I know the ones I might get reading the Book of Mormon are "more" truthful?

Who is God? Do you trust Him? That's the bottom line. For the truths of the Book of Mormon to be "more" truthful, they must be more useful to you. Subjective truth is all we have, cryophil. Objective truth sounds nice, but since you yourself are a subjective mind, subjectivity is all you can know.

This is a key I want to understand. If the LDS church is the one-and-only true church with revelation, priesthood authority and most-correct book/scripture, then I need to understand how to discern between good Light of Christ feelings and profound Holy Ghost experiences.

Any help to differentiate?

Trust. Experience. Living life as it comes; living life in accord to Christ's teachings. Or any teachings.

John 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

The knowledge spoken of is subjective, because that's all we can do.

HiJolly

[pntkl]

Wait, are you saying that my asking how Moroni's promise works to get an answer is the same as covetously seeking a sign?

I feel judged. I came here with what seem to me to be legitimate questions. Now I'm told that I'm not praying right, not trying hard enough or that I use circular arguments.

Please let me know what my circular logic is so that I can unwrest myself.

I appreciate that you're trying to give me love and help me, but I don't really feel it from your post. I felt judged and put down. Now perhaps I come off that way too. If I do, my apology.

Some things you may not find simply with one part of yourself or another. Rather, it is with integrity of self that our souls, even our whole beings may come to the light. We must know ourselves well, to know what it is we truly seek or hide, to or from. No apologies necessary, as it isn't for contest that such discourse is evident and necessary. Only for progression out of cyclic tendencies do I lament, not wholly condemning, but insight in what it is for, if we always lean on man's understanding, yet never take the leap to know His own. So let me extend my apologies for revealing such a heavy burden, even being hopeful of you finding answers that you know of, deep within. You aren't judged, especially not here and now. What a place, if it were!

That is to say, of all that is good, you may know some truths in logic, but there is so much more than man could answer, that must be asked of from God. Our complete spirituality, no matter what anyone will tell you--it is never found with senses alone, but by faith also or sometimes even alone. One's faith is also like a muscle. Wherewith, when exercised, it grows in strength and endurance. Without, left to rest, it atrophies or diminishes away.

In simplified form, we can't ignore or mock everything, that if we were to do so; we are apathetic. Truths can be multi-faceted, but in absolution, when such things are fully revealed, there is no doubt within them. The greatest faith you can have is one that does not hear or see in fullness, but that by taking the time to ask God that His ways are opened to us. It's the fruit of soul searching, something none of us can offer to another with a full step-by-step procedure. The most we can do is to offer individual insight, even to provide what we hold in faith.

Somewhere along the way, even while we lack faith, the Son's embrace can be found. All in faith at some point stood at the same point, in very similar shoes, seeking answers. The highest truth is that in all things, God does provide a way, where you have the will to find it. Even those with differences of belief, concerning the gospel, they too are Saved, if God so chooses. Only those willfully ignorant, those that are apathetic, even being laid precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line--continually seeking a sign, that is the event horizon I spoke of.

[HiJolly]

This is a key I want to understand. If the LDS church is the one-and-only true church with revelation, priesthood authority and most-correct book/scripture, then I need to understand how to discern between good Light of Christ feelings and profound Holy Ghost experiences.

Any help to differentiate?

Our scriptures don't EVER talk about a "one-and-only true church". EVER.

D&C 1:30 And also those to whom these commandments were given, might have power to lay the foundation of this church, and to bring it forth out of obscurity and out of darkness, the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—

You may think I'm nit picking and so forth. Whatever. Words have meaning.

This statement is highly qualified. There are provisos. It does not mean what you said, 90% of the common LDS opinion notwithstanding.

That makes a difference.

OK, next, revelation. I think we've already covered that. Everyone has a right to revelation, even members of the Church of Satan. Source and interpretation are the 'devil in the details', pardon the pun.

Priesthood. That is an institutional device. Not a personal one. I have pondered on this for years, and while my view is not typical, it is profound truth, and what I have been given.

Books. I've already covered that.

HiJolly

[cryophil]

How is this any different from math, physics, chemistry, Italian literature, or any other field in which you care to become more than passingly conversant?

This is a helpful comment. Thank you.

Studying academic subjects, especially those using the scientific method of observing, hypothesis, verification, etc is something I feel brings about fact and a truth that is practical and useable consistently. For example, I see the evidence of quantum mechanics all around me everyday. In nature and in technology, events would not happen if our model of quantum mechanics did not have a precise level of truth to it. Using a laser, I can repeatedly verify it. While it takes a while to do the study to get to the point where I can do it, it is very well mapped out.

Spirituality, and more precise to my point here, moral truth, is not as easily found. There are different versions of moral truth, each which require significant devotion & study to master.

This is how it differs from studying math, physics, chemistry, etc.

There is not a Hindu Quantum Mechanics. There is not a Christian math. These are indifferent to inner moral perspective. These are based on indpendent observations without the biases that differing systems of moral law seem to have.

If it were just a matter of study and devotion, I would be overjoyed. But it is more problematic than that. Spirituality usually depends on Faith, which is, as I understand, belief without direct evidence or "seeing" (or hearing or...). That is, starting from your heart and letting trust (despite the facts) dictate where your devotions lay. It seems circular. You must believe before you can believe, and when you do believe, you won't need evidence, and when you get the evidence, it will be faith-based and non-verifiable--requiring all others to have faith to see it.

I have a problem with yielding so much devotion when there are so many divergent paths.

[pntkl]

Argumentum ad ignoratium is what you speak of. However, faith transcending simple belief is not cyclically unverifiable, it is acyclically verifiable. In case of the exercise of faith, you introduce a feedback loop, you let it perform work, to be like energy. Without feedback, your belief recursively loops into perpetuity, until it crashes. God's verification is through the resonation, His frequency, which one must be attuned to. If you live above the noise floor, chaos dictates that which drives you. If you go below it, to process it, you find that what first seemed chaotic or random is a great order of magnitude and well structured. Being at a higher energy condition, many of His mysteries are hidden away. We are limited in dimension, as man and mankind. Even though science hasn't fully identified the make-up of matter in space, noticed by observation; it doesn't mean research is going to cease trying to understand it more determinately.

[cryophil]

There is only one God and only one Son of God. And the Son of God has been laboring in His vineyard since the beginning of time to bring to pass our immortality and eternal life. God is a God of order and truth, not confusion. Confusion comes from man.

skalenfehl, Thanks for the link to your post. I'll look it over. As for there being only one God and so on, and that the confusion is from man...I would love to find a way to get unconfused. My confusion is: The scriptures tell me to have faith and to ask God about the truth of his words and message and that by the power of the Holy Ghost I can know its truthfulness. The confusing part is, how do I know if the Holy Ghost is telling me it's true? How do I even know that this promise is really the way God wants to reveal the truth of his message, and not, instead, through the scientific method, or another means involving sacrificing a sheep, or ...?

Even if I accept the premise that the truth comes from the Holy Ghost, it is not clear to me that I will know it or recognize the answer. I thought I did. I had some profound chest-elating, mentally alert, spiritual awakening experiences. I have had these when reading the Book of Mormon, and when I study subjects that contradict LDS doctrine. Others across the world will testify the same.

If there is confusion, it is that God didn't clearly define what "promptings of the Spirit" are and how to recognize them. If this is a confusion of man, then I will listen.

But hold on. Moroni's promise starts out speaking specifically about the things written in the Book of Mormon, but then most people, yourself included, seem to think he is speaking of the Book of Mormon literally, the physical book. But that's not what Moroni is saying. And then you expand the "things" to not only the physical Book of Mormon, but then to the institution of the Church. Why?

First, because Moroni said, "by the power of the Holy Ghost ye may know the truth of all things."

Second, because that is the claim the prophets make.

For example, Ezra Taft Benson said, "if the Book of Mormon be true—and millions have now testified that they have the witness of the Spirit that it is indeed true—then one must accept the claims of the Restoration and all that accompanies it."

LDS.org - Ensign Article - The Book of Mormon—Keystone of Our Religion

Gordon B. Hinckley said, "It is either right or wrong, true or false, fraudulent or true. And that's exactly where we stand, with a conviction in our hearts that it is true: that Joseph went into the [sacred] Grove; that he saw the Father and the Son; that he talked with them; that Moroni came; that the Book of Mormon was translated from the plates; that the priesthood was restored by those who held it anciently. That's our claim. That's where we stand, and that's where we fall, if we fall. But we don't. We just stand secure in that faith. "

It's a chain. The BoM is a big link.

Our scriptures don't EVER talk about a "one-and-only true church". EVER.

HiJolly

Ok. Point taken. I linked it that way because if the LDS church teaching about eternal life is true, then it is the only church with the priesthood authority to baptise, to confrim and to seal members in the temple, which it teaches is essential for eternal life.

So it is essential to clarify that either all churches are true on different levels and not one of them is more true or has more authority, or that the LDS church is the only one with that authority and it is required by God.

I thought most here saw it as the latter, but I am probably mistaken. I'm looking to verify this personally.

[skalenfehl]

I have a problem with yielding so much devotion when there are so many divergent paths.

And there is the rub. Some people spend years, decades, if not an entire lifetime to investigating all paths but there is only one straight and narrow path. Something brought you here. Finish it.

[cryophil]

And there is the rub. Some people spend years, decades, if not an entire lifetime to investigating all paths but there is only one straight and narrow path. Something brought you here. Finish it.

What brought me here is the same as 99% of what brought all others to their different faiths. I was born & raised in Mormonism. Now I want to find out for myself. Finishing it will exclude devotion to others. We all have only so much time.

Does everyone here really truly believe that ultimately there is only one path back to God and his kingdom? Are nearly all other world-comers relegated to living a life in inferior moral systems and having to wait until the spirit world before they hear the right path?

The reason I ask is, if this is true, and if 99.5% of the world's population is eventually going to wait till the spirit world to hear it, then why does it matter if 0.5% of us have it correct? How can God really care about a system that touches so few? I don't want to play the numbers game, but the small percentage makes me think that this is not really God's priority.

[pntkl]

You would do well to understand cognitive biases more in-depth. Even better would be to re-read some things you were told here, research, and re-read. Some things given prior, won't be given more. However, unlike the spoken word; you have the benefit of scrutinizing in detail, rather than finding yourself with a past that dictated the future, yet was not able to yield. If I could tell you the future, do you think you could stop it?

Love,

T.J. Wood

[cryophil]

You would do well to understand cognitive biases more in-depth. Even better would be to re-read some things you were told here, research, and re-read. Some things given prior, won't be given more. However, unlike the spoken word; you have the benefit of scrutinizing in detail, rather than finding yourself with a past that dictated the future, yet was not able to yield. If I could tell you the future, do you think you could stop it?

Love,

T.J. Wood

Feel free to list my cognitive biases. I'm biased and blind to them. Thanks.

[cryophil]

Argumentum ad ignoratium is what you speak of. However, faith transcending simple belief is not cyclically unverifiable, it is acyclically verifiable. In case of the exercise of faith, you introduce a feedback loop, you let it perform work, to be like energy. Without feedback, your belief recursively loops into perpetuity, until it crashes. God's verification is through the resonation, His frequency, which one must be attuned to. If you live above the noise floor, chaos dictates that which drives you. If you go below it, to process it, you find that what first seemed chaotic or random is a great order of magnitude and well structured. Being at a higher energy condition, many of His mysteries are hidden away. We are limited in dimension, as man and mankind. Even though science hasn't fully identified the make-up of matter in space, noticed by observation; it doesn't mean research is going to cease trying to understand it more determinately.

And I think almost all religions teach something just like this. So again, how can I know which one to devote my time to? It will require a significant investment to get there. Why Mormonism? I was born in it, but that's not enough of a reason.

If fulfillment of Moroni's promise really takes that much investment, how can missionaries ever expect to find truly converted investigators?

[skalenfehl]

What brought me here is the same as 99% of what brought all others to their different faiths. I was born & raised in Mormonism. Now I want to find out for myself. Finishing it will exclude devotion to others. We all have only so much time.

Does everyone here really truly believe that ultimately there is only one path back to God and his kingdom? Are nearly all other world-comers relegated to living a life in inferior moral systems and having to wait until the spirit world before they hear the right path?

The reason I ask is, if this is true, and if 99.5% of the world's population is eventually going to wait till the spirit world to hear it, then why does it matter if 0.5% of us have it correct? How can God really care about a system that touches so few? I don't want to play the numbers game, but the small percentage makes me think that this is not really God's priority.

The laborers are few. But Jehovah's work is going forth and hasn't stopped and will not stop through the Millennium. If you were born here, then why not start here? If it is indeed true, then you already have a great advantage. But don't take all our words for it, for that is trusting in the arm of flesh. Hence the need for the witness of the Holy Ghost. It sounds to me like you want something so badly that isn't there rather than accepting what the Lord has already declared.