Is this true history?

[Hala401]

I really like to study formational church history to try to understand the etiology of the Apostacy and well just how our religion formed. And judging by the BOM, it looks like straying away from Heavenly Father was going on well before the birth of Jesus Christ.

It is obvious that I am not a high level scholar but I still read a lot. So I happened upon this site while looking for something else entirely. What do you think of it, or is it just more pseudo research?

anthropologist: When Same-Sex Marriage Was a Christian Rite

Hala

[applepansy]

I'm only responding the the first sentence in the article. After reading that far I didn't see the need to waste my time.

Christ's concept of marriage is and has always been "set in stone." Apostasy happens when we as a people start moving away from Christ. "Christians" have moved toward and away from Christ all throughout history.

[NeuroTypical]

I saw this link for the first time a week ago or so. It seems to be a copy and paste, but from where, I can't tell. The "Original Article" link dead, but points to a small California newsaper. A google search points to a gazillion times it's been cut-and-pasted on various websites, but I can't find the source.

Such things are occasionally just totally made up fabrications, or taken out of context, etc.

I'm going to wait to hear where the article came from, and how the research was done, before I decide.

[JohnnyRudick]

I'm only responding the the first sentence in the article. After reading that far I didn't see the need to waste my time.

Christ's concept of marriage is and has always been "set in stone." Apostasy happens when we as a people start moving away from Christ. "Christians" have moved toward and away from Christ all throughout history.

I had to really laugh at the article.

11th century?

The Great Apostasy was well on it's way by then.

Christian churches were being burned and the believers burned as well.

Even in Rome believers were fleeing to the northern mountains and into what we now call France to escape religious persecution.

Examples

Waldensians - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Says 12th century I believe they may be a little off.

Persecution of Cathars, Albigenses and Waldenses

1000 years of Christian Barbarity

[rameumptom]

Here is some good info on Bacchus and Sergius at wikipedia. As you'll see, most historians and Christians reject the concept of a gay marriage, etc. Sadly, one will find so called historians that try to make more out of something than there really is (like Abraham Lincoln being gay, because while traveling he shared beds with other men - very common in that time period).

Saints Sergius and Bacchus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the Apostasy, yes it occurred. Some members see it as an absolute and total event, but I do not. Many correct principles continued throughout the centuries: such as Jesus is the Christ, repentance, faith, commandments. That some things were lost along the way is rather obvious as one studies the writings of top scholars in the area today. So we do have a loss of priesthood authority, revelation, etc.

Edited May 21, 2012 by rameumptom

[Desertknight]

As a Catholic, of course I reject the idea of the 'great apostasy', (Hey, what do you expect.:)), and as a direct relation to the OP, the Catholic Church's belief on marriage has never wavered. One man + one woman, one time. No divorce and remarriage. No sexual acts outside of the bonds of marriage. Which applies to even non-Christians through the natural law.

What is described in the OP is an old tradition in the Mediterranean world, of Adelphopoiesis and co-adoption. Kinship and friendship were much more highly valued before the modern age as they often involved life and death issues and family survival. The Adelphopoiesis ceremony cemented those relationships between men as 'brothers', not sexual partners.

Edited May 21, 2012 by Desertknight

[HiJolly]

I really like to study formational church history to try to understand the etiology of the Apostacy and well just how our religion formed. And judging by the BOM, it looks like straying away from Heavenly Father was going on well before the birth of Jesus Christ.

It is obvious that I am not a high level scholar but I still read a lot. So I happened upon this site while looking for something else entirely. What do you think of it, or is it just more pseudo research?

anthropologist: When Same-Sex Marriage Was a Christian Rite

Hala

Sometimes the lines are blurred. We as Mormons used to have a temple ceremony that sealed one man to another. Not as companions, but as father to son. Here's an article on it: Law of adoption - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

HiJolly

[Hala401]

It is not surprising that these things get warped and taken out of context and I am ever so glad for the priesthood.

[Desertknight]

It is not surprising that these things get warped and taken out of context and I am ever so glad for the priesthood.

It's always important to check the source. Dr. Boswell is not taken seriously by many historians or theologians. He is not an historian as much as a propagandist for a specific cause.

[Hala401]

That is why I checked here. :)

[Hala401]

It's always important to check the source. Dr. Boswell is not taken seriously by many historians or theologians. He is not an historian as much as a propagandist for a specific cause.

Not to be snarky about this at all, but from the stories I have heard, it seems to me that devout, consciousous LDS folk may know more than many of the Christianity 8.0 set.

[Just_A_Guy]

As a Catholic, of course I reject the idea of the 'great apostasy', (Hey, what do you expect.:)), and as a direct relation to the OP, the Catholic Church's belief on marriage has never wavered. One man + one woman, one time. No divorce and remarriage. No sexual acts outside of the bonds of marriage. Which applies to even non-Christians through the natural law.

What is described in the OP is an old tradition in the Mediterranean world, of Adelphopoiesis and co-adoption. Kinship and friendship were much more highly valued before the modern age as they often involved life and death issues and family survival. The Adelphopoiesis ceremony cemented those relationships between men as 'brothers', not sexual partners.

Desertknight, many thanks for this. I 've learned something today. :)

If I'm understanding you correctly, it seems that early Mormonism had an analogue to that ritual. In the late Nauvoo/early Utah periods of church history, there was a ritual called "adoption" by which men could be ritualistically joined with other men, typically church leaders. It was eventually subsumed into the ritual we now call "sealing" (specifically, between parents and children), but there are liberal Mormons who try to point to the old adoption ritual as a theoretical justification for allowing homosexual marriages in Mormon temples.

[JohnnyRudick]

Here is some good info on Bacchus and Sergius at wikipedia. As you'll see, most historians and Christians reject the concept of a gay marriage, etc. Sadly, one will find so called historians that try to make more out of something than there really is (like Abraham Lincoln being gay, because while traveling he shared beds with other men - very common in that time period).

Saints Sergius and Bacchus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As for the Apostasy, yes it occurred. Some members see it as an absolute and total event, but I do not. Many correct principles continued throughout the centuries: such as Jesus is the Christ, repentance, faith, commandments. That some things were lost along the way is rather obvious as one studies the writings of top scholars in the area today. So we do have a loss of priesthood authority, revelation, etc.

I do not accept the idea of a total and complete apostasy either.

There were always believers in the fundamentals who carried with them and preserved the scriptures in one form or another. We could not have had the revivals and our great Union of States in their present form and the restitution of the Church with out them.