Cat eye contacts at church?

[Leah]

You don't think so? I think so. Having been Muslim for almost 7 years, I saw some things. I was constantly encouraging Muslim Sisters that felt they were being descriminated against to smile, be friendly and be ready to engage other women in light conversation even if their English is a bit wanting. Women are faster to adapt to cultural change than men, and I think that cultural understanding can come one person at a time. Muslims I have met are often really new to America, and as soon as they can get over their fear of Americans the better.

They would be much faster to view some hi jinks as an affront to Allah SWT.

It's the same thing that I say to Mormons, but in the case of Mormons, I know there to be prejudice against us, but I do not think it is as hurting as against Muslims.

I wasn't actually serious about the contacts at church, but the idea sort of struck me as funny, a joke really. I've spent a lot of my life in deadly serious situations and seemed to have developed a comical reaction to stress, that I really don't understand. Didn't mean to offend anyone.

I will say that certain people in Authority were very concerned that I could be in danger by converting, and I have encountered a couple people who were very upset.

So you are maintaining the stance that it is common for the Muslims in this community to beat women for perceived infractions? Not you "think so" as you wrote, but you know this to be fact?

[Hala401]

I know for certain that it happens. Now, I do not know if the rate of abuse of women in Islam is higher than the statistical average for non-Muslim women in America, which is around 25-30%. I didn't meet a lot of Muslim men when Muslim because that is the cultural norm. I just know what was said amongst the women.

So, you know lots of Muslim women, do you? Are they Shia or Sunni? I always thought that the Shia were nicer to me. In the Portland Area, the Saudi Sunnis try to give the impression that they are the only right Muslims. I still have contacts who are Muslim, and many are Pakistani, Yemini, Indian, and so forth, and they seem to practice a more mild form of Islam, with the far Eastern Muslims seeming to be the most mild.

I am open to letting you have your opinion about all this. I have mine, also. There is no need to be aggressive about it. Where you ever Muslim? Did you wear the Hijab and observe Hijab?

It is an experience, and I think that the general public is quite respectful of Muslim women, though I was frequently mistaken for a Catholic Nun, and rather than explain it, I just learned to say, "Bless you child, I will pray for you".

[Leah]

I know for certain that it happens. Now, I do not know if the rate of abuse of women in Islam is higher than the statistical average for non-Muslim women in America, which is around 25-30%. I didn't meet a lot of Muslim men when Muslim because that is the cultural norm. I just know what was said amongst the women.

So, you know lots of Muslim women, do you? Are they Shia or Sunni? I always thought that the Shia were nicer to me. In the Portland Area, the Saudi Sunnis try to give the impression that they are the only right Muslims. I still have contacts who are Muslim, and many are Pakistani, Yemini, Indian, and so forth, and they seem to practice a more mild form of Islam, with the far Eastern Muslims seeming to be the most mild.

I am open to letting you have your opinion about all this. I have mine, also. There is no need to be aggressive about it. Where you ever Muslim? Did you wear the Hijab and observe Hijab?

It is an experience, and I think that the general public is quite respectful of Muslim women, though I was frequently mistaken for a Catholic Nun, and rather than explain it, I just learned to say, "Bless you child, I will pray for you".

Me? "Aggressive"? For asking questions? If there is anyone being "aggressive", it is not I.

I know rabbis who have worked very closely with the Muslim leaders here for many, many years. If there are indeed women here being beaten as you state, that is important information for them to have. I am curious to discuss this with them and hear what their experience is, and how they are working to deal with such incidents.

When you make such a provocative statement and claim it to be fact, why would you be angry at someone asking you about said statement? And if you are concerned for these women, you should be happy if others show concern for their welfare.

You said you know "for certain" that it happens, yet you state that this is all hearsay. If the women who are being treated thus are to be helped, it will take more than hearsay to do so.

By the way, I don't need your permission to have an opinion nor to have knowledge on a subject.

I would think if Muslims are as violent as you claim, you would be happy that there are those who are interested in the victims of such violence.

[Hala401]

Leah, you are being abrasive and we are finished talking.

[Leah]

Leah, you are being abrasive and we are finished talking.

Sooo.....you are against getting help for Muslim women who are being beaten? How is getting help for women who are being beaten being "abrasive"?

That's fine. Have your pout. That won't stop me from asking the rabbis to help these women.

[Hala401]

OH, the Jews are doing such a fine job of helping Muslim women in the middle east. Yes, they just shoot and bomb lots of Muslims. Do your homework before you do more harm than good.

[pam]

OH, the Jews are doing such a fine job of helping Muslim women in the middle east. Yes, they just shoot and bomb lots of Muslims. Do your homework before you do more harm than good.

Ummm I'm confused. I thought the conversation was about helping women in the US and in the Portland area? I think that is what Leah is talking about. Not about what is going on in the middle east. Isn't it great that there can be help in just a small portion of the world? Tolerance and love has to start somewhere.

[Guest]

I thought Leah was talking about Portland, too.

[annewandering]

It is curious why Leah wouldnt believe a former Muslim woman. If that is not what she meant it did come across that way to me.

[Hala401]

Ummm I'm confused. I thought the conversation was about helping women in the US and in the Portland area? I think that is what Leah is talking about. Not about what is going on in the middle east. Isn't it great that there can be help in just a small portion of the world? Tolerance and love has to start somewhere.

I felt my anger kindling when I stopped the conversation, but fell victim to the winner gets the last word in ploy.

It's complex but I was raised in America where the Jews are the Chosen People. After spending almost 7 years as Muslim, my perspective is greatly altered. Here in portland, I just don't think a Rabbi talking to an Imam about violence against Muslim women is going to be very constructive, and in fact I see it as foolish and counterproductive.

And, I did qualify what I said by saying that I did not know if the rate of violence in the USA against Muslim women is any higher than the statistical average for all American Women. So Leah was distorting my words.

I do not hate Muslims, in fact leaving Islam and becoming LDS has been one of the most tearing and soul wrenching experiences of my life, and inside I still hope for a way that Muslims and the LDS can have a very close and loving relationship.

This discussion has degenerated to the point that it just makes me sad. What started out as a big of nonsensical humor has become a royal pain.

[Hala401]

It is curious why Leah wouldnt believe a former Muslim woman. If that is not what she meant it did come across that way to me.

Yes, and I am not approaching things with my usual humor. I am gonna go hide under the covers.

[pam]

Totally understand Hala. Sometimes though, when we are in or from a situation we are extremely biased. Sometimes others from the outside see a perspective or a sign of hope that perhaps those too closely tied can't see. That's why I can also see Leah's side of it too.

In some ways I can relate to this. I have a totally different opinion and perspective on illegal immigration than the majority. It's probably the years of humanitarian work I did with the people in Tijuana, Mexico that has me seeing things this way. Sometimes I have to step back because I am far too biased in my opinion in allowing others to have an opinion as well. Even when it so goes against what I'm feeling. It's because I was too close to the situation in Mexico.

Another reason why I hate Mexican jokes and anything that stereotypes the Latino communities.

[Hala401]

Totally understand Hala. Sometimes though, when we are in or from a situation we are extremely biased. Sometimes others from the outside see a perspective or a sign of hope that perhaps those too closely tied can't see. That's why I can also see Leah's side of it too.

In some ways I can relate to this. I have a totally different opinion and perspective on illegal immigration than the majority. It's probably the years of humanitarian work I did with the people in Tijuana, Mexico that has me seeing things this way. Sometimes I have to step back because I am far too biased in my opinion in allowing others to have an opinion as well. Even when it so goes against what I'm feeling. It's because I was too close to the situation in Mexico.

Thank you for not being harsh with me. You could have, you know, and I was half expecting it. After my travels as brief as they were, I feel like I am a citizen of the world, not a US citizen. I saw so much pain and I can't fix it, and it hurts a lot.

[pam]

Thank you for not being harsh with me. You could have, you know, and I was half expecting it. After my travels as brief as they were, I feel like I am a citizen of the world, not a US citizen. I saw so much pain and I can't fix it, and it hurts a lot.

I know Hala. Just don't be so harsh with Leah in her opinion.

I felt the same way working with people in Mexico. There was a community of families that lived on the hillside in Mexico. So poor they lived in cardboard shacks. A fire went through there. One of the families lost their baby in that fire. The family was so poor, they didn't even have the $5 required to bring their baby home from the morgue to properly bury. My dad paid for it and the funeral and performed the funeral himself. So so sad.

I think Leah is being very compassionate in wanting to get help for these poor women and the situations you described. That's just what we do as kind and compassionate people. We just want to help and we cry for those in such pain and cry that we can't do more.

[Leah]

It is curious why Leah wouldnt believe a former Muslim woman. If that is not what she meant it did come across that way to me.

You are implying that I don't believe her because she is a former Muslim. Why would that be relevant?

The statements made left the impression that beating women is commonplace in the Portland Muslim community. That's a strong accusation and a serious situation. As I previously stated, I know rabbis who have worked hand-in-hand with the Portland Muslim community for a very long time. If that kind of behavior is happening in the community here, they have the ability and resources and ties with the Muslim leaders to combat such behavior. I cannot imagine why anyone would have an issue with that.

Of course, Hala's prejudice against Jews is obvious, but why should that get in the way of helping Muslim women who are being beaten? Should bigotry against Jews be more important than helping women in need?

[Hala401]

I know Hala. Just don't be so harsh with Leah in her opinion.

I felt the same way working with people in Mexico. There was a community of families that lived on the hillside in Mexico. So poor they lived in cardboard shacks. A fire went through there. One of the families lost their baby in that fire. The family was so poor, they didn't even have the $5 required to bring their baby home from the morgue to properly bury. My dad paid for it and the funeral and performed the funeral himself. So so sad.

I think Leah is being very compassionate in wanting to get help for these poor women and the situations you described. That's just what we do as kind and compassionate people. We just want to help and we cry for those in such pain and cry that we can't do more.

I saw lots of people living in cardboard boxes in a river bed in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, and then there were lots of peasants living on hill sides there. I went there frightened of Hispanics and loved them when I left.

Kenya was just as hard,or worse. Wells, not being drilled because China threatened to turn Africa into a war zone if the US tried to help them. OH Pam, it was so heartbreaking to leave there and leave then with their problems, knowing that I could not help them. It was my "I am not God moment".

I'll go apologise to Leah.

[Hala401]

You are implying that I don't believe her because she is a former Muslim. Why would that be relevant?

The statements made left the impression that beating women is commonplace in the Portland Muslim community. That's a strong accusation and a serious situation. As I previously stated, I know rabbis who have worked hand-in-hand with the Portland Muslim community for a very long time. If that kind of behavior is happening in the community here, they have the ability and resources and ties with the Muslim leaders to combat such behavior. I cannot imagine why anyone would have an issue with that.

Of course, Hala's prejudice against Jews is obvious, but why should that get in the way of helping Muslim women who are being beaten? Should bigotry against Jews be more important than helping women in need?

Leah, I am sorry for being cross with you.

[Leah]

OH, the Jews are doing such a fine job of helping Muslim women in the middle east. Yes, they just shoot and bomb lots of Muslims. Do your homework before you do more harm than good.

Your bigotry is apparent. Please take it elsewhere.

[Hala401]

Leah, if you would please go examine what I said. I said that I knew Muslim women got beaten but I did not know if the rate for that was higher than the statistical average for American women.

This is an important distinction to make about what I said.

But, no, I do not hold Jews in high esteem, but I bear them no ill will.

[pam]

Okay let's just get along here. An apology has been made. Some things we just all aren't going to agree on.

[annewandering]

Politics especially.

[Leah]

I felt my anger kindling when I stopped the conversation, but fell victim to the winner gets the last word in ploy.

It's complex but I was raised in America where the Jews are the Chosen People. After spending almost 7 years as Muslim, my perspective is greatly altered. Here in portland, I just don't think a Rabbi talking to an Imam about violence against Muslim women is going to be very constructive, and in fact I see it as foolish and counterproductive.

And, I did qualify what I said by saying that I did not know if the rate of violence in the USA against Muslim women is any higher than the statistical average for all American Women. So Leah was distorting my words.

I do not hate Muslims, in fact leaving Islam and becoming LDS has been one of the most tearing and soul wrenching experiences of my life, and inside I still hope for a way that Muslims and the LDS can have a very close and loving relationship.

This discussion has degenerated to the point that it just makes me sad. What started out as a big of nonsensical humor has become a royal pain.

Oh, please. I distorted no one's words.

No one said you hate Muslims. Indeed, it comes across as the exact opposite. Your main topic of conversation in your posts/threads is Islam, you want to continue to wear your hijab, your posts are peppered with Muslim lingo (for lack of a better description)....I would guess that people who don't know you would think you were Muslim and never have an idea that you're Mormon. How you think anyone would think you hate Muslims is baffling.

You clearly do not understand the concept of the "Chosen People" and prefer to listen to propaganda, but that is not what this discussion is about.

Your objection to rabbis and imams working together to stop any kind of violence is truly perplexing. Shouldn't we ALL be working together to help those in need? Whether you want to believe it or not, here in Portland, rabbis and imams have a long history of working together to help EVERYONE. Perhaps you are unaware of this because you haven't been here long, but it is fact. Are you against the stopping of violence? Or the idea of Muslims and Jews working together? Or of Jews working with anyone? Do you feel that it is better for women to continue to be beaten rather than to be helped by Jews? Your objection to people of different faiths working together to help those in need is truly baffling.

[Hala401]

Oh, please. I distorted no one's words.

No one said you hate Muslims. Indeed, it comes across as the exact opposite. Your main topic of conversation in your posts/threads is Islam, you want to continue to wear your hijab, your posts are peppered with Muslim lingo (for lack of a better description)....I would guess that people who don't know you would think you were Muslim and never have an idea that you're Mormon. How you think anyone would think you hate Muslims is baffling.

You clearly do not understand the concept of the "Chosen People" and prefer to listen to propaganda, but that is not what this discussion is about.

Your objection to rabbis and imams working together to stop any kind of violence is truly perplexing. Shouldn't we ALL be working together to help those in need? Whether you want to believe it or not, here in Portland, rabbis and imams have a long history of working together to help EVERYONE. Perhaps you are unaware of this because you haven't been here long, but it is fact. Are you against the stopping of violence? Or the idea of Muslims and Jews working together? Or of Jews working with anyone? Do you feel that it is better for women to continue to be beaten rather than to be helped by Jews? Your objection to people of different faiths working together to help those in need is truly baffling.

I apologised, to a person of breeding, this should be enough.

[Leah]

Leah, if you would please go examine what I said. I said that I knew Muslim women got beaten but I did not know if the rate for that was higher than the statistical average for American women.

This is an important distinction to make about what I said.

But, no, I do not hold Jews in high esteem, but I bear them no ill will.

Your obsession with that statistic is completely irrelevant to the situation.

Your bigotry against Jews is not reflective of LDS values or teachings.

[Leah]

I apologised, to a person of breeding, this should be enough.

Hala, why would I accept an apology from someone who insults me in the same breath she purports to apologize? Clearly, such an apology is not sincere.