Is membership in the JBS or such organizations

[jamesbyoung]

I was told as a young man to stay from such organizations, that they were the first steps that would lead inevitably to apostasy. With the rise again of JBS 'prominence', Glenn Beck, and the Far New Right, I wonder how the members on the Net think about this counsel.

[beefche]

Moderator warning to anyone participating in this thread:

If this thread goes the way that most political threads go, it will be shut down.

[HiJolly]

I think the JBS people I have met are mostly reasonable and 'good' LDS members.

However!!! I could not stand their propaganda(in the form of pamphlets), it was unfair, biased and hateful. So I never joined.

HiJolly

[jamesbyoung]

Thank you, HiJolly, and I thank the moderator for a considered warning.

Some of my JBS church acquaintances consider Mosiah 3 and 4 as counsel only, and others believe that the covenants were religious/secular in nature and binding.

I am curious to see how others view it. I am in agreement with the mod, no need for unhappiness.

[applepansy]

My experience and opinion:

Decades ago my parents were members of the JBS. This was during my teen years. Instead of going to LDS Girls' Camp Mom insisted I go to JBS camp. That was not a good decision on her part. But it wasn't until they left the JBS and then after I had children of my own was I able to get my mother to listen to why it wasn't a good idea. When it got nutty they left. I've yet to meet a JBS member who doesn't have a few unbalanced views. But that doesn't mean they all do.

[Guest]

Some of my JBS church acquaintances consider Mosiah 3 and 4 as counsel only, and others believe that the covenants were religious/secular in nature and binding.

Wow, those chapters to me encompass much of what the core doctrine of our church is. The Atonement, faith in Christ, humility, the importance of charity. . . I love King Benjamin's address and it again seems like really important teachings for the LDS church.

So if they think that's counsel only, what doctrine do they believe? Is it a Church of Beans and Ammo or what?

[jamesbyoung]

The concept of "unbalanced views" appears right to me. Mosiah 3 and 4 are binding, I am told by several of my JBS acquaintances, on church members as part of their willing agency in acceptance of covenants. However, I am told, the government power of taxation, particularly for social programs, is coercive, thus ungodly. I personally find this out of touch with our commitment to the American people as a whole by living the principles of the Constitution and the inspiration of the Declaration of Independence.

[Avrham]

I was told as a young man to stay from such organizations, that they were the first steps that would lead inevitably to apostasy. With the rise again of JBS 'prominence', Glenn Beck, and the Far New Right, I wonder how the members on the Net think about this counsel.

Hi there just wondering what is JBS just googled it could not find much on the first search :)

[jamesbyoung]

John Birch Society @ The John Birch Society - John Birch Society

[Just_A_Guy]

The concept of "unbalanced views" appears right to me. Mosiah 3 and 4 are binding, I am told by several of my JBS acquaintances, on church members as part of their willing agency in acceptance of covenants. However, I am told, the government power of taxation, particularly for social programs, is coercive, thus ungodly. I personally find this out of touch with our commitment to the American people as a whole by living the principles of the Constitution and the inspiration of the Declaration of Independence.

They are binding on the believers, but it does not follow that God wants government to enforce them--particularly on pain of confiscatory fine, imprisonment, or death.

If the United States can/should fine or imprison (and even kill, if someone forcibly resists the fine or commitment to prison) those who resist the injunction of Mosiah 3-4, can it also do so to those who--say--couldn't pass a temple recommend interview? Shouldn't it punish those who, for instance, glorify fornication? Commit adultery? Engage in sodomy?

It's amazing how quickly a person who supports government-sponsored social welfare on religious grounds, suddenly remembers his ardent support of church/state separation whenever a member of the Religious Right happens to walk into the room.

Edited July 21, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[jamesbyoung]

Thanks, Just_A_Guy, for your insightful comments. We live in a secular government, governed by a secular Constitution, though church members believe it and the founders to be inspired by God. Thus, within the Constitutional standards, the decision for righteousness is secular in nature, not religious.

Taxation is an inherent power of all governments. If the people in the legislatures and Congress assembled create such programs, then is it not incumbent on citizens to pay their taxes while they actively work to replace such representatives? My personal opinion is that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ would have no problem with such programs in a secular state, if administered fairly and honestly.

[Just_A_Guy]

Taxation is an inherent power of all governments. If the people in the legislatures and Congress assembled create such programs, then is it not incumbent on citizens to pay their taxes while they actively work to replace such representatives?

I don't know precisely what the JBS teaches - contra my previous half-hearted defense of them, I'm not involved with them and have the same reservations about them that HiJolly already expressed. I understand there's at least a lunatic element of them that says all income tax is unconstitutional and that one is justified to participate in tax-evasion; and I certainly don't agree with that.

I think there's a possibility that tax policy can be so patently unfair that civil disobedience--and even outright revolt--is justified (see: Boston Tea Party); but I don't think we're anywhere near that level at this time.

My personal opinion is that Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ would have no problem with such programs in a secular state, if administered fairly and honestly.

As a borderline conservative/libertarian, I'd say that that's one heckuva big "if".

Edited July 22, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[jamesbyoung]

I can concede the bigness of the "if" even I have faith in it.

The issue comes back, I believe, to Civic Virtue. If the citizens are properly educated and motivated, they will make the right decisions in their legislators.

But, in a caucus state like Utah, the citizens wrongly (in my opinion) permit a caucus system that appears to appeal to the extremes on either end rather than have to get out and force a more centrist and common approach in a primary.

[Just_A_Guy]

I can concede the bigness of the "if" even I have faith in it.

The issue comes back, I believe, to Civic Virtue. If the citizens are properly educated and motivated, they will make the right decisions in their legislators.

But, in a caucus state like Utah, the citizens wrongly (in my opinion) permit a caucus system that appears to appeal to the extremes on either end rather than have to get out and force a more centrist and common approach in a primary.

I actually like the caucus system. I like meeting with my neighbors (who also, for better or worse, happen to be mostly my fellow ward members) once every two years just to shoot the breeze about politics.

I grant that it does make it easy for a few vocal wingnuts to hijack the show if the saner heads don't turn out in force. I think that's why the Church sends out letters every election year making a point of asking Mormons to attend their caucus meetings.

But frankly, my impression here is that the Utah left isn't really that loony (relatively speaking, at least); and for being such a solidly one-party state I think the ruling Republicans do a decent (not perfect, but decent) job of standing up to the JBS, Eagle Forum, and other hyper-conservative groups when they wander off the reservation. Really, all things considered, I think Utah is managed pretty darned well.

Edited July 22, 2012 by Just_A_Guy

[annewandering]

By properly educated do you mean by the jbs? Or who exactly? Reminds me of a statement by someone, dont remember who, that regular pepole just arent smart enough to vote because they do not understand the real issues. I have a feeling the common man knows a lot more than politicians give them credit for.

[volgadon]

I think the JBS people I have met are mostly reasonable and 'good' LDS members.

However!!! I could not stand their propaganda(in the form of pamphlets), it was unfair, biased and hateful. So I never joined.

HiJolly

What, you don't agree with fighting for the right to fight the right fight for the right?