Free will and prayer

[Solstjerne76]

Not sure if it should be posted here on in General discussion so the "boss" of this forum just have to move it to the right place if needed :)

I think to much, and one of the things I am thinking about is this:

I pray my husband will be intereseting in the church etc.

(my husband is not a member you see)

but we all have free will, right=? So if God let my husband suddenly find intereset in the church, then God made him feel that way, riight? So in way, free will is gone?

You understand how I am thinking and what I am trying to ask?

Or is it more like this:

I ask God, God answer by giving my husband THOUGHTS about the church,,perhaps a feeling of intereset, but then it is up to my husband to do something about it?

[Anddenex]

I ask God, God answer by giving my husband THOUGHTS about the church,,perhaps a feeling of intereset, but then it is up to my husband to do something about it?

It is more like this. If God interfered with free will, or our moral agency, then his plan would be purposeless.

I love the story of Alma the younger, that even with an Angel's rebuke, Alma still had free agency to choose for himself. Alma decided to change, not because he was forced, but because he chose.

[Seminarysnoozer]

Not sure if it should be posted here on in General discussion so the "boss" of this forum just have to move it to the right place if needed :)

I think to much, and one of the things I am thinking about is this:

I pray my husband will be intereseting in the church etc.

(my husband is not a member you see)

but we all have free will, right=? So if God let my husband suddenly find intereset in the church, then God made him feel that way, riight? So in way, free will is gone?

You understand how I am thinking and what I am trying to ask?

Or is it more like this:

I ask God, God answer by giving my husband THOUGHTS about the church,,perhaps a feeling of intereset, but then it is up to my husband to do something about it?

Hello,

I have many family members who are not members of the church. When I pray for them I try to keep in mind the fact that we all accepted the truth before coming here while in the pre-mortal life. We are all interested in the truth otherwise we wouldn't have kept our first estate. Our intellect and our spirit already has accepted such truth and the veil here covers it. He is interested in the truth it is just covered by the veil of forgetfulness and the clouding of mortal passions. With that thought in mind my prayers tend to be filled with words like, 'Please help them recognize the spirit. Please help them remember who they are and where they came from and their previous choices to accept God's plan. please help them remove the covering from their eyes of darkness from the truth and listen to the promptings of the spirit'. But that is just me, really though, you praying from your heart and whatever words you use is sufficient. God knows the desire of your heart and listens to the intent of the prayer, the words don't have to be exact.

God doesn't have to implant new thoughts, they are already there underneath the thoughts of the body, the brain. Helping a person recognize the spirit and feel the spirit are the best way to have the truth recalled to their interest and to overcome carnal passions that cloud the view of the straight and narrow.

[applepansy]

Heaven Father will not take away anyone's agency (free will). Your husband gets to choose. Heavenly Father may place information or people in your husband's path in life who will give your husband the information or example he needs to make a decision, but God will never make the decision for your husband.

Heavenly Father won't "let your husband suddenly find interest in the church."

[skalenfehl]

When I pray for others, I pray that the Lord will bless them with "a desire" or "a sense of urgency" when praying for such things.

[Solstjerne76]

Thank you for your answers. It has helped me to see things in a new way and also to pray in a new way :)

[Eleven]

Solstjerne,

Sometimes out of habit some people might pray like this "Thank you for this day.. thanks for many blessings... please bless husband to make good decisions..." etc

Asking God to "bless" anything means God endows your efforts. he doesnt however, replace your efforts with his. Pray for things like "Please help me to recognize what would interest him in the church"

"help him to not have such a hard day so when we talk about this he wont be a grump"

you get it.

[captmoroniRM]

I think a perfect example of how God can answers prayers without violating our agency lies in the conversion of Alma the Younger. Here you had the rebellious son of a righteous man who had prayed and fasted mightily for his son to repent and become converted to the ways of Christ. When the time was right, Heavenly Father sent an angel to answer Alma the Elder's prayers. Note the words of the angel:

"Behold, the Lord hath heard the prayers of his people, and also the prayers of his servant, Alma, who is thy father; for he has prayed with much faith concerning thee that thou mightest be brought to the knowledge of the truth; therefore, for this purpose have I come to convince thee of the power and authority of God, that the prayers of his servants might be answered according to their faith.

And now behold, can ye dispute the power of God? For behold, doth not my voice shake the earth? And can ye not also behold me before you? And I am sent from God.

Now I say unto thee: Go, and remember the captivity of thy fathers in the land of Helam, and in the land of Nephi; and remember how great things he has done for them; for they were in bondage, and he has delivered them. And now I say unto thee, Alma, go thy way, and seek to destroy the church no more, that their prayers may be answered, and this even if thou wilt of thyself be cast off."

The angel tells Alma the Younger that A: Alma's father has been praying for him. B: He's come to answer his fathers prayer and "Convince him of the power and authority of God" and C: offers him a choice- Go thy way and persecute me no more, or be destroyed.)

The angel, at no point, infringes upon Alma the Younger's free agency. The Lord did hsi part to answer Alma the Elder's prayer. The actual decision to convert and repent remained entirely with Alma the Younger. He could have rejected the message and followed the path towards destruction and technically, Alma the Elder's prayer would have been answered. Luckily, Alma heeded the message and chose to repent of his sins.

[Traveler]

Free Will??? As we struggle through mortality and experience our existence as mortal entities - where does anyone get the idea this has that much (if anything) to do with Free Will?

What free will is expressed in a child whose parents (both of which the child loves) are going through a divorce?

What free will is expressed in a young widow with small children whose eternal partner was killed in an accident?

What free will is expressed in a child dying of leukemia?

If two individuals are living life by the same principles but only one is being forced to deal with a choice between two unwanted and undesirable circumstances and results - how is that an expression of Free Will?

Two points - First: Free will is not the choice between options that are not desired and chosen outcomes. Second: Free will is not the same as Agency. Agency implies connection to and actions for and in behalf of something outside of a particular individual.

Final thought - the parameters of this life is not about free will but it is about agency - that is becoming connected (eternally bonded) to something(s) outside of self.

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

It is a difficult thing indeed to exercise free will in such cases as Traveler mentions. A very profound scripture comes to mind regarding Joseph Smith's tribulations while in prison:

1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;

2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.

3 And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors.

4 And although their influence shall cast thee into trouble, and into bars and walls, thou shalt be had in honor; and but for a small moment and thy voice shall be more terrible in the midst of thine enemies than the fierce lion, because of thy righteousness; and thy God shall stand by thee forever and ever.

5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?

9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever.

We have the free will to choose how we conduct ourselves amidst our greatest trials. Where are the blessings in exercising free will during the easiest and lightest of tasks? And where is the growth that comes from such?

[Traveler]

It is a difficult thing indeed to exercise free will in such cases as Traveler mentions. A very profound scripture comes to mind regarding Joseph Smith's tribulations while in prison:

1 The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;

2 While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.

3 And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors.

4 And although their influence shall cast thee into trouble, and into bars and walls, thou shalt be had in honor; and but for a small moment and thy voice shall be more terrible in the midst of thine enemies than the fierce lion, because of thy righteousness; and thy God shall stand by thee forever and ever.

5 If thou art called to pass through tribulation; if thou art in perils among false brethren; if thou art in perils among robbers; if thou art in perils by land or by sea;

6 If thou art accused with all manner of false accusations; if thine enemies fall upon thee; if they tear thee from the society of thy father and mother and brethren and sisters; and if with a drawn sword thine enemies tear thee from the bosom of thy wife, and of thine offspring, and thine elder son, although but six years of age, shall cling to thy garments, and shall say, My father, my father, why can’t you stay with us? O, my father, what are the men going to do with you? and if then he shall be thrust from thee by the sword, and thou be dragged to prison, and thine enemies prowl around thee like wolves for the blood of the lamb;

7 And if thou shouldst be cast into the pit, or into the hands of murderers, and the sentence of death passed upon thee; if thou be cast into the deep; if the billowing surge conspire against thee; if fierce winds become thine enemy; if the heavens gather blackness, and all the elements combine to hedge up the way; and above all, if the very jaws of hell shall gape open the mouth wide after thee, know thou, my son, that all these things shall give thee experience, and shall be for thy good.

8 The Son of Man hath descended below them all. Art thou greater than he?

9 Therefore, hold on thy way, and the priesthood shall remain with thee; for their bounds are set, they cannot pass. Thy days are known, and thy years shall not be numbered less; therefore, fear not what man can do, for God shall be with you forever and ever.

We have the free will to choose how we conduct ourselves amidst our greatest trials. Where are the blessings in exercising free will during the easiest and lightest of tasks? And where is the growth that comes from such?

It is my understanding that we must look beyond the parameters of this mortal life to understand any possibility of free will or agency. Without such possibility there is no real condition of will, agency, justice or freedom or should we say - the realization of anything good beyond some fleeting moments that are never ours to keep.

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

2 Nephi 2:27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

That we may inherit and keep eternal life.

Edited August 1, 2012 by skalenfehl

[Traveler]

Ether 12:27 And if men come unto me I will show unto them their weakness. I give unto men weakness that they may be humble; and my grace is sufficient for all men that humble themselves before me; for if they humble themselves before me, and have faith in me, then will I make weak things become strong unto them.

2 Nephi 2:27 Wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil; for he seeketh that all men might be miserable like unto himself.

That we may inherit and keep eternal life.

Your input (and the scriptures you quote) will only come to make sense when we understand that we initiated the exercised of our free will in a choice made prior to our coming to earth under the condition and parameters of which we were born. Without the agency and free will understood in the LDS concept of the Plan of Salvation which includes a pre-mortal existence - this life experience cannot rationally or realistically be argued to be an expression of free will.

The Traveler

[skalenfehl]

Line upon line, precept upon precept. Light cleaves to light.