Js And Other Churches

Cal · March 18, 2004

Originally posted by srm@Mar 18 2004, 10:06 AM

Snow--
For your argument to make sense you have to ASSUME that JS really did have a "first vision" OR was "planning" to; in which case your argument makes sense....
Cal,
I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning, but yes, I assume that JS did have or did purport to have a vision. This thing with the Methodist was 8 years later. JS have told people about his vision 8 years earlier and had been telling people for year about the gold plates that were to have come into his possession the year before.
I would like your reference for the fact that JS told people about his vision at the time.
If he did tell others about the vision--did any of the accounts say that God had told him to join none of the churches?
In the official account Joseph said that he shared the info with a Methodist preacher. And that when he did share it was met with great persecution...

Is there any record of what that conversation actually contained? Did JS tell the minister that God had told him not to attend his church. That would be germain to this issue of whether JS' attendance was incongruous with his later recorded vision.

March 19, 2004

I read something on this...and I don't think he only mentioned seeing God and Jesus Christ in the flesh and was cut off with venom and threats....being told he had dealt with the devil.

Cal · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 18 2004, 06:42 PM
I read something on this...and I don't think he only mentioned seeing God and Jesus Christ in the flesh and was cut off with venom and threats....being told he had dealt with the devil.

Reference?

March 19, 2004

Okay...I'll look it up...it is in the JS story in the scriptures I think...I'll try to find it.

Cal · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 18 2004, 07:09 PM
Okay...I'll look it up...it is in the JS story in the scriptures I think...I'll try to find it.

ok

March 19, 2004

JS-H 1

Some preachers and other professors of religion reject account of First Vision—Persecution heaped upon Joseph Smith—He testifies of the reality of the vision. (Verses 21-26.)

21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or brevelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.

Joseph Smith and the Minister

Cal · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 18 2004, 07:22 PM
JS-H 1
Some preachers and other professors of religion reject account of First Vision—Persecution heaped upon Joseph Smith—He testifies of the reality of the vision. (Verses 21-26.)
21 Some few days after I had this vision, I happened to be in company with one of the Methodist preachers, who was very active in the before mentioned religious excitement; and, conversing with him on the subject of religion, I took occasion to give him an account of the vision which I had had. I was greatly surprised at his behavior; he treated my communication not only lightly, but with great contempt, saying it was all of the devil, that there were no such things as visions or brevelations in these days; that all such things had ceased with the apostles, and that there would never be any more of them.
Joseph Smith and the Minister

Still doesn't say whether JS had been instructed to join none of the churches of the time.
BTW--does JS's account HERE say what he had a vision OF?

March 19, 2004

It does a little...go to the link I put there.

I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.

March 19, 2004

more

That his parents' concern about religion was transmitted to Joseph, Jr. is evidenced by the fact that when he was only fourteen he informed family members that he had learned the true church was not then on the earth. At the time he seems not to have made it clear to them that this information was imparted in a vision during which God and Jesus appeared to him as he prayed in a grove close to the Smith home. On the other hand, he said he gave an account of this experience to a Methodist minister. While the cleric apparently regarded what Joseph told him as little more than a youngster's delusions, events of the next few years would reveal that the adolescent Smith was preternaturally mature.

this doesn't say either..

Cal · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Peace@Mar 18 2004, 07:38 PM
It does a little...go to the link I put there.
I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.

Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.

srm · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 18 2004, 08:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 18 2004, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 18 2004, 07:38 PM
It does a little...go to the link I put there.
I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.

Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.

where in the official account does it sya that Joseph was not to associate with other Churches?

Cal · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by srm@Mar 18 2004, 08:27 PM

It does a little...go to the link I put there.
I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.
Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.
where in the official account does it sya that Joseph was not to associate with other Churches?

Ahhh--what was JS trying to find out when he supposedly went to pray? And what answer did he supposedly get?
"join none of them" I think was supposed to be the answer.
But, that was according to an account written in 1838. We are trying to find out if there is any evidence that JS knew about this order to "join none of them" back between 1820 and 1828, when he DID join them.

srm · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 18 2004, 08:38 PM

It does a little...go to the link I put there.
I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.
Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.
where in the official account does it sya that Joseph was not to associate with other Churches?
Ahhh--what was JS trying to find out when he supposedly went to pray? And what answer did he supposedly get?
"join none of them" I think was supposed to be the answer.
But, that was according to an account written in 1838. We are trying to find out if there is any evidence that JS knew about this order to "join none of them" back between 1820 and 1828, when he DID join them.
Cal this is a strawman. Joseph did not join another church. If trident were to come to sunday school with me and I put his name on the roll that would not make him a mormon. Even if his name were on the role for years. Your argument is specious.

Cal · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by srm@Mar 18 2004, 09:20 PM

It does a little...go to the link I put there.
I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.
Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.
where in the official account does it sya that Joseph was not to associate with other Churches?
Ahhh--what was JS trying to find out when he supposedly went to pray? And what answer did he supposedly get?
"join none of them" I think was supposed to be the answer.
But, that was according to an account written in 1838. We are trying to find out if there is any evidence that JS knew about this order to "join none of them" back between 1820 and 1828, when he DID join them.
Cal this is a strawman. Joseph did not join another church. If trident were to come to sunday school with me and I put his name on the roll that would not make him a mormon. Even if his name were on the role for years. Your argument is specious.

Splitting hairs. Why would JS have anything to do with church that God, telling him face to face, were false? Makes no sense to me. I would be more impressed if JS's behavior had been consistent with the 1838 story. His post 1820 behavior is more consistent with someone who had never had the 1838 vision, than it is with with someone who did.

Snow · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 18 2004, 08:32 AM

I would like your reference for the fact that JS told people about his vision at the time.
If he did tell others about the vision--did any of the accounts say that God had told him to join none of the churches?

Cal,

Refer to the Recollections of Orasmus Turner; the Family Memoir of Lucy Smith, William Smith on Mormonism p. 5, Anderson; Early Account, p157 Jesse; Joseph Smiths First Vision, Backman. or Smith own and numerous accounts.

...and you references to JS joining the Methodist Church in getting way less than genuine at this point. You have no evidence that he did, other than his name on a class list and you have failed to address the evidence and arguments to the contrary.

Cal · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 18 2004, 09:46 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 18 2004, 09:46 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 18 2004, 08:32 AM

I would like your reference for the fact that JS told people about his vision at the time.
If he did tell others about the vision--did any of the accounts say that God had told him to join none of the churches?

Cal,

Refer to the Recollections of Orasmus Turner; the Family Memoir of Lucy Smith, William Smith on Mormonism p. 5, Anderson; Early Account, p157 Jesse; Joseph Smiths First Vision, Backman. or Smith own and numerous accounts.

...and you references to JS joining the Methodist Church in getting way less than genuine at this point. You have no evidence that he did, other than his name on a class list and you have failed to address the evidence and arguments to the contrary.

Yes, we have been around and around about this before. Nothing really new to say. No one seems to know whether JS had any awareness of being told between 1820 and 1828 that he was not to join with any churches. Without that, there is no where else to go with this line.

srm · March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Cal@Mar 18 2004, 09:28 PM

It does a little...go to the link I put there.
I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.
Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.
where in the official account does it sya that Joseph was not to associate with other Churches?
Ahhh--what was JS trying to find out when he supposedly went to pray? And what answer did he supposedly get?
"join none of them" I think was supposed to be the answer.
But, that was according to an account written in 1838. We are trying to find out if there is any evidence that JS knew about this order to "join none of them" back between 1820 and 1828, when he DID join them.
Cal this is a strawman. Joseph did not join another church. If trident were to come to sunday school with me and I put his name on the roll that would not make him a mormon. Even if his name were on the role for years. Your argument is specious.
Splitting hairs. Why would JS have anything to do with church that God, telling him face to face, were false? Makes no sense to me. I would be more impressed if JS's behavior had been consistent with the 1838 story. His post 1820 behavior is more consistent with someone who had never had the 1838 vision, than it is with with someone who did.
He was not to join them but it says nothing about not having "anything to do with" it. First you try to say he joined another church when he clearly didn't. Then you try to say that if he had received the vision in 1820 he wouldn't have even associated with another church. Well he wasn't told not to associate with another church. this argument is specious tambien.

March 19, 2004

Originally posted by Cal+Mar 18 2004, 08:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Mar 18 2004, 08:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Peace@Mar 18 2004, 07:38 PM
It does a little...go to the link I put there.
I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.

Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.

Oh....does when it written have anything to do with when it happened? I'm sure that it wasn't only a short time between when he had the vision ...that he tried to share it with a minister.

After reading the other posts...I guess there really isn't a reference to what I remember hearing in a tape...

srm · March 23, 2004

Yes, we have been around and around about this before. Nothing really new to say. No one seems to know whether JS had any awareness of being told between 1820 and 1828 that he was not to join with any churches. Without that, there is no where else to go with this line.

Then why did you start the thread and beat it to death...were you hoping that you had enough dupes around here that you could shake someone's faith?

It seems you started it but it didn't turn out like you planned so now you want to drop it.

srm · March 27, 2004

Originally posted by srm@Mar 23 2004, 10:02 AM

Yes, we have been around and around about this before. Nothing really new to say. No one seems to know whether JS had any awareness of being told between 1820 and 1828 that he was not to join with any churches. Without that, there is no where else to go with this line.
Then why did you start the thread and beat it to death...were you hoping that you had enough dupes around here that you could shake someone's faith?
It seems you started it but it didn't turn out like you planned so now you want to drop it.

Cal, are you ignoring this because you don't have a leg to stand on? Why don't you at least admit that you were wrong before you sweep it under the rug?

srm · September 19, 2004

Originally posted by srm+Mar 27 2004, 08:24 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Mar 27 2004, 08:24 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 23 2004, 10:02 AM

Yes, we have been around and around about this before. Nothing really new to say. No one seems to know whether JS had any awareness of being told between 1820 and 1828 that he was not to join with any churches. Without that, there is no where else to go with this line.
Then why did you start the thread and beat it to death...were you hoping that you had enough dupes around here that you could shake someone's faith?
It seems you started it but it didn't turn out like you planned so now you want to drop it.

Cal, are you ignoring this because you don't have a leg to stand on? Why don't you at least admit that you were wrong before you sweep it under the rug?

Cal,

How have you been? Welcome back. Could you please respond to this? Can you admit that you were wrong?

September 19, 2004

Originally posted by srm+Sep 19 2004, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Sep 19 2004, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>
Originally posted by -srm@Mar 27 2004, 08:24 AM
<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 23 2004, 10:02 AM

Yes, we have been around and around about this before. Nothing really new to say. No one seems to know whether JS had any awareness of being told between 1820 and 1828 that he was not to join with any churches. Without that, there is no where else to go with this line.
Then why did you start the thread and beat it to death...were you hoping that you had enough dupes around here that you could shake someone's faith?
It seems you started it but it didn't turn out like you planned so now you want to drop it.
Cal, are you ignoring this because you don't have a leg to stand on? Why don't you at least admit that you were wrong before you sweep it under the rug?

Cal,

How have you been? Welcome back. Could you please respond to this? Can you admit that you were wrong?

You should kick him with "You are a typical anti-mormon" while he's on the ground. Maybe spit on him too.

Nina · September 20, 2004

It seems to me that there could be lots of reasons to go to another church while awaiting the arrival of the "True" church. Curiosity, an opportunity to share what you have learned to be the truth, to understand what others believe, to be with your family ... I am sure there are others.

Just attending another church does not mean you believe or disbelieve what is being taught I should think that that is obviouse (sp?).

Matt · September 21, 2004

A point I have only just noticed. Joseph Smith mentions "professors of religion".

In what context was this used, I wonder?

One who "professes" a religion?

Or "professors of religion" as in religious professors, or University or seminary educated theologians?

September 21, 2004

Originally posted by Outshined+Mar 16 2004, 06:01 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Outshined @ Mar 16 2004, 06:01 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Mar 16 2004, 06:47 PM
You're not JS, and had not just been told by God to join none of them. I would think that an answer to JS's question about the churches in his neigborhood might have left a stronger impression on him. JS seems to be behaving as though no such question had been answered.

JS was also a teenager at the time. He sought out the minister and discussed the vision, and was scolded over it. I can see how a kid would seek guidance from someone in a position of religious leadership, even if they were in the wrong church. I can also see how horrified the minister probably was.

His attendance is not indicative of anything insidious that I can see. As I said, I have attended churches that I knew were not the right one, often because they were the only church available at the time. As many critics do, I think you're trying to read far more into the situation than there was.

In 1827 he was 19, going on 20. At that age, I had 2 children and was married.

Strange to call him a "kid" at that age. He was a grownup man at that time and place in our history.

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