Js And Other Churches

[Maureen]

Originally posted by bizabra@Sep 20 2004, 06:38 PM

In 1827 he was 19, going on 20. At that age, I had 2 children and was married.

Strange to call him a "kid" at that age. He was a grownup man at that time and place in our history.

I agree he was not a kid but, to correct your math - JS was born Dec. 1805 so in 1827 he was really 21 going on 22.

M.

[Cal]

Originally posted by srm@Mar 18 2004, 09:20 PM

It does a little...go to the link I put there.

I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.

Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.

where in the official account does it sya that Joseph was not to associate with other Churches?

Ahhh--what was JS trying to find out when he supposedly went to pray? And what answer did he supposedly get?

"join none of them" I think was supposed to be the answer.

But, that was according to an account written in 1838. We are trying to find out if there is any evidence that JS knew about this order to "join none of them" back between 1820 and 1828, when he DID join them.

Cal this is a strawman. Joseph did not join another church. If trident were to come to sunday school with me and I put his name on the roll that would not make him a mormon. Even if his name were on the role for years. Your argument is specious.

Why would JS go, even attend, churches that God, Himself, had personally told him not to join. Supposedly they were all bogus--apparently that didn't make much of an impression.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Starsky@Mar 19 2004, 12:28 AM

It does a little...go to the link I put there.

I have been trying to find other accounts of JS...but am only finding anti sights... I will keep looking.

Peace--that account (from your internet site) was the one that was written in 1838 ----ten years after the reported association of JS with the methodists. What we are trying to find out is if JS ever told anybody at the time circa 1820 to 1828 that God had told him not to join or associate himself with other churches.

Oh....does when it written have anything to do with when it happened? I'm sure that it wasn't only a short time between when he had the vision ...that he tried to share it with a minister.

After reading the other posts...I guess there really isn't a reference to what I remember hearing in a tape...

There is no contemporary record of JS trying to share his vision with anybody. He account of trying to share is vision was ALSO way after the fact.

[Cal]

Originally posted by srm+Sep 19 2004, 03:13 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Sep 19 2004, 03:13 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Mar 27 2004, 08:24 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 23 2004, 10:02 AM

Yes, we have been around and around about this before. Nothing really new to say. No one seems to know whether JS had any awareness of being told between 1820 and 1828 that he was not to join with any churches. Without that, there is no where else to go with this line.

Then why did you start the thread and beat it to death...were you hoping that you had enough dupes around here that you could shake someone's faith?

It seems you started it but it didn't turn out like you planned so now you want to drop it.

Cal, are you ignoring this because you don't have a leg to stand on? Why don't you at least admit that you were wrong before you sweep it under the rug?

Cal,

How have you been? Welcome back. Could you please respond to this? Can you admit that you were wrong?

Wrong about what? You have yet to show me any evidence, external to JS's accounts years later, that there was any contemporary record of JS having this order from God not to associate with the churches of the day, and I have pointed to some evidence that is inconsistent with what he claimed. How am I wrong? Attending other churches when you claim to have such a communication from God is inconsistent. You can explain your way around it, but it is still inconsistent--a more consistent action would have been NOT attending these churches, and telling people why. But there is no evidence he ever did that.

[Cal]

Originally posted by bat+Sep 19 2004, 04:08 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Sep 19 2004, 04:08 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -srm@Sep 19 2004, 03:13 PM

Originally posted by -srm@Mar 27 2004, 08:24 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Mar 23 2004, 10:02 AM

Yes, we have been around and around about this before. Nothing really new to say. No one seems to know whether JS had any awareness of being told between 1820 and 1828 that he was not to join with any churches. Without that, there is no where else to go with this line.

Then why did you start the thread and beat it to death...were you hoping that you had enough dupes around here that you could shake someone's faith?

It seems you started it but it didn't turn out like you planned so now you want to drop it.

Cal, are you ignoring this because you don't have a leg to stand on? Why don't you at least admit that you were wrong before you sweep it under the rug?

Cal,

How have you been? Welcome back. Could you please respond to this? Can you admit that you were wrong?

You should kick him with "You are a typical anti-mormon" while he's on the ground. Maybe spit on him too.

Thanks, bat! I can see that vacations from the forum are not allowed. I'll try not to leave you stranded again. I know it can be a lonely place here surrounded by all these true blue defenders of the faith.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal+Oct 2 2004, 09:04 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Oct 2 2004, 09:04 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Sep 19 2004, 03:13 PM

Cal,

How have you been?  Welcome back.  Could you please respond to this?  Can you admit that you were wrong?

Wrong about what? You have yet to show me any evidence, external to JS's accounts years later, that there was any contemporary record of JS having this order from God not to associate with the churches of the day, and I have pointed to some evidence that is inconsistent with what he claimed. How am I wrong?

Maybe he is refering to your false claim that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist Church. Are you willing to admit that you fabricated that or are you still promoting that fraud.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 2 2004, 10:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 2 2004, 10:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Oct 2 2004, 09:04 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Sep 19 2004, 03:13 PM

Cal,

How have you been?  Welcome back.  Could you please respond to this?  Can you admit that you were wrong?

Wrong about what? You have yet to show me any evidence, external to JS's accounts years later, that there was any contemporary record of JS having this order from God not to associate with the churches of the day, and I have pointed to some evidence that is inconsistent with what he claimed. How am I wrong?

Maybe he is refering to your false claim that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist Church. Are you willing to admit that you fabricated that or are you still promoting that fraud.

And Joseph Smith did not join the Methodist church because of why? Because he wasn't worthy?

[Matt]

Maybe he is refering to your false claim that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist Church. Are you willing to admit that you fabricated that or are you still promoting that fraud.

Is it a false claim?

How could you say he had fabricated it when it was a claim apparently made in the 1830s?

If you claim that he fabricated it, how could you claim he was still promoting that fraud?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Matt@Oct 2 2004, 04:14 PM

Maybe he is refering to your false claim that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist Church. Are you willing to admit that you fabricated that or are you still promoting that fraud.

Is it a false claim?

How could you say he had fabricated it when it was a claim apparently made in the 1830s?

If you claim that he fabricated it, how could you claim he was still promoting that fraud?

Alright, I concede that Cal is not the originator of the falsehood, just the promoter of it.

But would you mind posting the original "1830s" claim... I am unfamiliar with such.

[Matt]

You could try this.

http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/first-vision.html

It depends on how much of a spark of Methodism he caught.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by Snow@Oct 2 2004, 04:27 PM

But would you mind posting the original "1830s" claim... I am unfamiliar with such.

I know we've hashed this one out before, are you claiming to have never heard of The Amboy Journal too?

[Snow]

Originally posted by bat+Oct 2 2004, 05:22 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Oct 2 2004, 05:22 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Snow@Oct 2 2004, 04:27 PM

But would you mind posting the original "1830s" claim... I am unfamiliar with such.

I know we've hashed this one out before, are you claiming to have never heard of The Amboy Journal too?

The Amboy Journal made a claim in 1897 that Joseph Smith had attended some classes given by a Methodist brother-in-law of Emma.

Matt is trying to tell us that a claim was made in 1830 that Joseph Smith had joined the Methodist Church. That a different thing entirely.

Try and focus on the actual discussion - not what you want the discussion to be.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Matt@Oct 2 2004, 04:37 PM

You could try this.

http://www.mrm.org/multimedia/text/first-vision.html

It depends on how much of a spark of Methodism he caught.

Yeah - I tried it and it doesn't address your point. Again, do you have a source for your false claim?

...preferably something not written by a clown anti-Mormon "Christian" (and thief) and reproduced by a "ministry" formed to denigrate the Church. It took me only 13 seconds to spot an error in his polemic. I wonder how many I could find if I actually looked for them.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 2 2004, 10:20 AM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 2 2004, 10:20 AM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Oct 2 2004, 09:04 AM

<!--QuoteBegin--srm@Sep 19 2004, 03:13 PM

Cal,

How have you been?  Welcome back.  Could you please respond to this?  Can you admit that you were wrong?

Wrong about what? You have yet to show me any evidence, external to JS's accounts years later, that there was any contemporary record of JS having this order from God not to associate with the churches of the day, and I have pointed to some evidence that is inconsistent with what he claimed. How am I wrong?

Maybe he is refering to your false claim that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist Church. Are you willing to admit that you fabricated that or are you still promoting that fraud.

Your definition of "joined" must be different than mine. When one's name appears on the attendance rolls of a church one may or may not be some kind of official member, but how ever you define it, JS joined with the congregation in worship. His history, supposedly written by him, recounts his attendance at church after his "vision".

And the POINT of this thread was to show the inconsistency between what JS said God told him about these church, and his subsequent quest to investigate them. Why investigate them when you have already been told they are all WRONG?

Point: JS actions subsequent to his supposed vision were inconsistent with what he said in 1838 that he had learned from the vision.

[Matt]

Snow, you allege it to be a false claim.

Therefore, you believe that you already know the answer.

You presume that anyone who points out that Joseph Smith may well have been a member of the Methodist Church, or who may have attempted to join the Methodist Church, is making a false claim.

That's not true.

Let's see. If someone said "That Snow comes from Australia," that might not be a false claim. It may well be an erroneous claim, but not false. Just mistaken.

Therefore to suggest that the possiblity that Joseph Smith joined or attempted to join the Methodist Church is a false claim is wrong.

It is possible. He may have. Therefore the claim cannot be false. It might, however, be in error. Which is not the same thing.

He learned something of Methodism, he then learned something of Freemsonry, and used what he had learnt to build something else, something new, and different.

Is Mormonism better than Methodism and Freemasonary? Or just different?

[srm]

Originally posted by Matt@Oct 3 2004, 02:59 PM

Snow, you allege it to be a false claim.

Therefore, you believe that you already know the answer.

You presume that anyone who points out that Joseph Smith may well have been a member of the Methodist Church, or who may have attempted to join the Methodist Church, is making a false claim.

That's not true.

Let's see. If someone said "That Snow comes from Australia," that might not be a false claim. It may well be an erroneous claim, but not false. Just mistaken.

Therefore to suggest that the possiblity that Joseph Smith joined or attempted to join the Methodist Church is a false claim is wrong.

It is possible. He may have. Therefore the claim cannot be false. It might, however, be in error. Which is not the same thing.

He learned something of Methodism, he then learned something of Freemsonry, and used what he had learnt to build something else, something new, and different.

Is Mormonism better than Methodism and Freemasonary? Or just different?

But the evidence does not bear out that he joined the Methodist Church. Rather it shows that he attended a Methodist Church.

[Guest bat]

Originally posted by srm@Oct 3 2004, 03:23 PM

But the evidence does not bear out that he joined the Methodist Church. Rather it shows that he attended a Methodist Church.

Because they wouldn't have let him join due to his occult practices.

[Matt]

Because they wouldn't have let him join due to his occult practices.

Yes, I heard that, too. Was it in No Man Knows My History, perhaps?

I think it was mean of the Methodists. Aren't the meant to forgive people, after all?

What would the history of American religion have been if Joseph Smith had become a leading member of the Methodist Church?

[srm]

Originally posted by bat+Oct 3 2004, 03:31 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (bat @ Oct 3 2004, 03:31 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--srm@Oct 3 2004, 03:23 PM

But the evidence does not bear out that he joined the Methodist Church.  Rather it shows that he attended a Methodist Church.

Because they wouldn't have let him join due to his occult practices.

No, bat the source (a very late source if I recall) say that they did not want him to attend. I was about on attendance, not about joining.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Oct 3 2004, 08:44 AM

Maybe he is refering to your false claim that Joseph Smith joined the Methodist Church. Are you willing to admit that you fabricated that or are you still promoting that fraud.

Your definition of "joined" must be different than mine. When one's name appears on the attendance rolls of a church one may or may not be some kind of official member, but how ever you define it, JS joined with the congregation in worship. His history, supposedly written by him, recounts his attendance at church after his "vision".

There is no mistaking the word "joined." We all know what it means. Attending one few classes given by a brother in law does not constitute "joining" the Methodist Church. Must you be so clumsy? Repeated?

And the POINT of this thread was to show the inconsistency between what JS said God told him about these church, and his subsequent quest to investigate them. Why investigate them when you have already been told they are all WRONG?

If you are the biggest logical fallaciaster I have ever met, at least you are close. Joseph may well have believed the Methodist Church to be in error. That he attended some SS classes means nothing. I have recently attended a Methodist meeting and I believe them to be in error. So what, the only reason for attending a meeting is not that you think that the class belongs to a Church that is true of good or desirable. Have you never taken a course or read a book on logic?

[Snow]

Originally posted by Matt@Oct 3 2004, 02:59 PM

Snow, you allege it to be a false claim.

Therefore, you believe that you already know the answer.

You presume that anyone who points out that Joseph Smith may well have been a member of the Methodist Church, or who may have attempted to join the Methodist Church, is making a false claim.

Bah.

I don't KNOW whether JS joined the Methodist Church of the Daughters of the American Revolution for that matter. What I do know is that there is no known evidence to support the claim that he did. Knowing that I have the upper hand in this argument. Those arguing against me have to rely on supposition, innuendo and late 3rd party account - a losing combination.

[Cal]

If you are the biggest logical fallaciaster I have ever met, at least you are close. Joseph may well have believed the Methodist Church to be in error. That he attended some SS classes means nothing. I have recently attended a Methodist meeting and I believe them to be in error. So what, the only reason for attending a meeting is not that you think that the class belongs to a Church that is true of good or desirable. Have you never taken a course or read a book on logic? 

I can always tell when you have run out of ammunition, you start your posting off with an insult. That fact is, the only thing that would be CONSISTENT with JS's being told to join with none of the churches would have been for him to avoid them. He didn't. What he DID do was consistent with being told NOTHING.

If you want to bolster JS's credibility you have to do it with information CONSISTENT with being told to join none of the churches. Attending churches subsequent to this supposed vision does NOTHING to bolster his claim, and it detracts from it.

We see this differently because we have both come to different conclusions about JS from information apart from this issue. You think that JS was credible, so you automatically assume that his behavior regarding joining churches supports his credibility. I see it the other way, I don't see anything in his behavior that does bolster his credibility. If he had avoided other churches, THAT would have been consistent. To me, nothing less. Perhaps this is because I have set the bar higher for JS than you have.

Fantastic claims require fantastic proof. Ain't seen it.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Oct 4 2004, 06:07 PM

You think that JS was credible, so you automatically assume that his behavior regarding joining churches supports his credibility.

There you go again.

-You claim that JS joined the Methodist Church.

-You get caught misrepresenting the truth.

-You redefine "join" to mean "attended a few Sunday School classes."

-Get busted again.

-You repeat "that his behavior regarding joining churches - as you never got caught in the fib in the first place.

And then you go on to mistate - more like invent my opinion that I see his behavior as supporting his credibility. That is not my opinion at all. My opinion is that attending a few Sunday School classes does not not joining the Methodist Church.

Further your logic is faulty. You say that attending a few SS classes is inconsistent with what he was told in the First Vision and therefore (correct me if I am wrong) that is evidence that the First Vision did not occur. Non sequitars my illogical friend. If your assertion were correct, then his attendance meant that he did not believe that the Methodist Church WAS NOT true (in the way that Mormons believe). Complete nonsense. I attend Churches all the time even though I believe the First Vision and believe that the other Churchs are not true. What more, JS was in the midst of translating the BoM, moving forward with his plans for the restoration. What is a more likely scenario - since you scenario holds no water... that he attended to support his wife who was struggling, out on a limb and alone with Joseph during his dark days and (Emma) longed for the company and support of her family - something stable to latch onto and Joseph supported her in her endeavors.

Anyway, the bottom line is that he didn't join the Methodist Church and would up restoring the Church of Jesus Christ. We know that is a factual matter, ergo we can reject out of hand your irresponsible anti-Mormons protestations handed to you by your anti-Mormon propogandists.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Snow+Oct 4 2004, 07:45 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Oct 4 2004, 07:45 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 4 2004, 06:07 PM

You think that JS was credible, so you automatically assume that his behavior regarding joining churches supports his credibility.

There you go again.

-You claim that JS joined the Methodist Church.

-You get caught misrepresenting the truth.

-You redefine "join" to mean "attended a few Sunday School classes."

-Get busted again.

-You repeat "that his behavior regarding joining churches - as you never got caught in the fib in the first place.

And then you go on to mistate - more like invent my opinion that I see his behavior as supporting his credibility. That is not my opinion at all. My opinion is that attending a few Sunday School classes does not not joining the Methodist Church.

Further your logic is faulty. You say that attending a few SS classes is inconsistent with what he was told in the First Vision and therefore (correct me if I am wrong) that is evidence that the First Vision did not occur. Non sequitars my illogical friend. If your assertion were correct, then his attendance meant that he did not believe that the Methodist Church WAS NOT true (in the way that Mormons believe). Complete nonsense. I attend Churches all the time even though I believe the First Vision and believe that the other Churchs are not true. What more, JS was in the midst of translating the BoM, moving forward with his plans for the restoration. What is a more likely scenario - since you scenario holds no water... that he attended to support his wife who was struggling, out on a limb and alone with Joseph during his dark days and (Emma) longed for the company and support of her family - something stable to latch onto and Joseph supported her in her endeavors.

Anyway, the bottom line is that he didn't join the Methodist Church and would up restoring the Church of Jesus Christ. We know that is a factual matter, ergo we can reject out of hand your irresponsible anti-Mormons protestations handed to you by your anti-Mormon propogandists.

We will never agree on the meaning of JS's attendance, joining, going to, associating with, hanging out with, what ever you want to call it. You say it means nothing. I say it is inconsistent with being told to join none of them. Let's agree to disagree.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Cal@Oct 5 2004, 05:38 PM

We will never agree on the meaning of JS's attendance, joining, going to, associating with, hanging out with, what ever you want to call it. You say it means nothing. I say it is inconsistent with being told to join none of them. Let's agree to disagree.

There could be perfectly good reasons for him attending for a while. Not all of them mean that he was interested in joining. Perhaps he wanted to attend to find out what the creeds were and try to understand why God disapproved of them. There could be lots of "perhaps" that have nothing to do with him (or God) giving the nod of approval.