Js And Other Churches

[Snow]

Originally posted by Cal@Oct 5 2004, 05:38 PM

Let's agree to disagree.

No problem.

We'll find something else to discuss.

[srm]

Originally posted by Cal+Oct 5 2004, 05:38 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Cal @ Oct 5 2004, 05:38 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Snow@Oct 4 2004, 07:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 4 2004, 06:07 PM

You think that JS was credible, so you automatically assume that his behavior regarding joining churches supports his credibility.

There you go again.

-You claim that JS joined the Methodist Church.

-You get caught misrepresenting the truth.

-You redefine "join" to mean "attended a few Sunday School classes."

-Get busted again.

-You repeat "that his behavior regarding joining churches - as you never got caught in the fib in the first place.

And then you go on to mistate - more like invent my opinion that I see his behavior as supporting his credibility. That is not my opinion at all. My opinion is that attending a few Sunday School classes does not not joining the Methodist Church.

Further your logic is faulty. You say that attending a few SS classes is inconsistent with what he was told in the First Vision and therefore (correct me if I am wrong) that is evidence that the First Vision did not occur. Non sequitars my illogical friend. If your assertion were correct, then his attendance meant that he did not believe that the Methodist Church WAS NOT true (in the way that Mormons believe). Complete nonsense. I attend Churches all the time even though I believe the First Vision and believe that the other Churchs are not true. What more, JS was in the midst of translating the BoM, moving forward with his plans for the restoration. What is a more likely scenario - since you scenario holds no water... that he attended to support his wife who was struggling, out on a limb and alone with Joseph during his dark days and (Emma) longed for the company and support of her family - something stable to latch onto and Joseph supported her in her endeavors.

Anyway, the bottom line is that he didn't join the Methodist Church and would up restoring the Church of Jesus Christ. We know that is a factual matter, ergo we can reject out of hand your irresponsible anti-Mormons protestations handed to you by your anti-Mormon propogandists.

We will never agree on the meaning of JS's attendance, joining, going to, associating with, hanging out with, what ever you want to call it. You say it means nothing. I say it is inconsistent with being told to join none of them. Let's agree to disagree.

wait a minute Cal. You're saying that because he of the methodist Church incident it is evidence that Joseph never had the 1st vision because it is inconsistant with what he was told...right?

Couldn't it also show that he understood join to mean become a member of, and that attendance at Sunday School was not a conflict.

ergo; it does not offer any evidence that the vision never happened.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Jenda+Oct 5 2004, 06:25 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Jenda @ Oct 5 2004, 06:25 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 5 2004, 05:38 PM

We will never agree on the meaning of JS's attendance, joining, going to, associating with, hanging out with, what ever you want to call it. You say it means nothing. I say it is inconsistent with being told to join none of them. Let's agree to disagree.

There could be perfectly good reasons for him attending for a while. Not all of them mean that he was interested in joining. Perhaps he wanted to attend to find out what the creeds were and try to understand why God disapproved of them. There could be lots of "perhaps" that have nothing to do with him (or God) giving the nod of approval.

I agree there are many possible "perhaps'". The best one would have been for JS to say to himself, " PERHAPS I don't need to attend any of these churches since God just told me they didn't have the truth".

[Cal]

Originally posted by srm+Oct 5 2004, 09:32 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (srm @ Oct 5 2004, 09:32 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'>

Originally posted by -Cal@Oct 5 2004, 05:38 PM

Originally posted by -Snow@Oct 4 2004, 07:45 PM

<!--QuoteBegin--Cal@Oct 4 2004, 06:07 PM

You think that JS was credible, so you automatically assume that his behavior regarding joining churches supports his credibility.

There you go again.

-You claim that JS joined the Methodist Church.

-You get caught misrepresenting the truth.

-You redefine "join" to mean "attended a few Sunday School classes."

-Get busted again.

-You repeat "that his behavior regarding joining churches - as you never got caught in the fib in the first place.

And then you go on to mistate - more like invent my opinion that I see his behavior as supporting his credibility. That is not my opinion at all. My opinion is that attending a few Sunday School classes does not not joining the Methodist Church.

Further your logic is faulty. You say that attending a few SS classes is inconsistent with what he was told in the First Vision and therefore (correct me if I am wrong) that is evidence that the First Vision did not occur. Non sequitars my illogical friend. If your assertion were correct, then his attendance meant that he did not believe that the Methodist Church WAS NOT true (in the way that Mormons believe). Complete nonsense. I attend Churches all the time even though I believe the First Vision and believe that the other Churchs are not true. What more, JS was in the midst of translating the BoM, moving forward with his plans for the restoration. What is a more likely scenario - since you scenario holds no water... that he attended to support his wife who was struggling, out on a limb and alone with Joseph during his dark days and (Emma) longed for the company and support of her family - something stable to latch onto and Joseph supported her in her endeavors.

Anyway, the bottom line is that he didn't join the Methodist Church and would up restoring the Church of Jesus Christ. We know that is a factual matter, ergo we can reject out of hand your irresponsible anti-Mormons protestations handed to you by your anti-Mormon propogandists.

We will never agree on the meaning of JS's attendance, joining, going to, associating with, hanging out with, what ever you want to call it. You say it means nothing. I say it is inconsistent with being told to join none of them. Let's agree to disagree.

wait a minute Cal. You're saying that because he of the methodist Church incident it is evidence that Joseph never had the 1st vision because it is inconsistant with what he was told...right?

Couldn't it also show that he understood join to mean become a member of, and that attendance at Sunday School was not a conflict.

ergo; it does not offer any evidence that the vision never happened.

I don't think I said it was "evidence he didn't have" his vision. I certainly did, at least imply that BETTER evidence FOR his vision would have been subsequently distancing himself from them altogether. Maybe this is just to fine a distinction.

[srm]

cal says

I don't think I said it was "evidence he didn't have" his vision. I certainly did, at least imply that BETTER evidence FOR his vision would have been subsequently distancing himself from them altogether. Maybe this is just to fine a distinction.

Ok cal. But can you at least admit that our view; that joseph did not join just because he attended some meeting has possible merit too?

[Guest Unorthodox]

Deleted

[Cal]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Oct 13 2004, 05:47 PM

Joining or attending a Methodist church proves nothing about JS.

He could have joined or attended them because he was doubting his visions for a few days or weeks (or however long he was there). Can't a true prophet be aloud to doubt his visions?

I would have a healthy dose of skepticism if I was seeing weird things like he did.

But in the end he chose to leave the Methodists and start (continue?) working on establishing the LDS Church...meaning he believed in what he was doing.

Theoretically.

From an aplogetics point of view, you make a good point--as did Snow and others.

However, all I a was pointing out is that if you had to make a choice between actions that would be supportive or MOST consistent with God's supposed directive to "Join none of them", the most consistent action would have been, just that, to avoid them all. (We went round and round about the meaning of the word "join"). But if JS's objective was to find out which religion to follow and God told him to follow none of them, that none had the truth, then the most logical action, the one MOST consistent with the directive would be for him to have associated with none. I'm not saying that, because he DID associate or join with other religions, therefore he couldn't have had the Vision. I'm just asserting that, to me, the most consistent action would have been to have nothing to do with any of them.

Of course, if you already ASSUME that JS DID have the Vision, then his subsequent actions are irrelevant to whether he did or did not have the vision--to you there is nothing to explore in his subsequent actions, because you have ALREADY decided he did have the vision. My position, and that of many others is, I'm still not convinced he did--so I'm still looking at the whole picture for evidences that would be consistent with his story. Associating with other religions after being told that none of them have the truth, is inconsistent.

[Cal]

Originally posted by Unorthodox@Oct 13 2004, 05:47 PM

Joining or attending a Methodist church proves nothing about JS.

He could have joined or attended them because he was doubting his visions for a few days or weeks (or however long he was there). Can't a true prophet be aloud to doubt his visions?

I would have a healthy dose of skepticism if I was seeing weird things like he did.

But in the end he chose to leave the Methodists and start (continue?) working on establishing the LDS Church...meaning he believed in what he was doing.

Theoretically.

From an aplogetics point of view, you make a good point--as did Snow and others.

However, all I a was pointing out is that if you had to make a choice between actions that would be supportive or MOST consistent with God's supposed directive to "Join none of them", the most consistent action would have been, just that, to avoid them all. (We went round and round about the meaning of the word "join"). But if JS's objective was to find out which religion to follow and God told him to follow none of them, that none had the truth, then the most logical action, the one MOST consistent with the directive would be for him to have associated with none. I'm not saying that, because he DID associate or join with other religions, therefore he couldn't have had the Vision. I'm just asserting that, to me, the most consistent action would have been to have nothing to do with any of them.

Of course, if you already ASSUME that JS DID have the Vision, then his subsequent actions are irrelevant to whether he did or did not have the vision--to you there is nothing to explore in his subsequent actions, because you have ALREADY decided he did have the vision. My position, and that of many others is, I'm still not convinced he did--so I'm still looking at the whole picture for evidences that would be consistent with his story. Associating with other religions after being told that none of them have the truth, is inconsistent.