Did God Create Evil

[missionary0204]

(A moderator asked this question, but the thread was changed before I discovered this website today. I hope you get to review this post)

Love the question!

When I was a missionary, I struggled with the same question - "Did God create evil?" Over the years, my understanding of the plan of salvation has improved greatly.

1. Evil: I would argue that God did not create evil. Evil has always existed.

2 Nephi 2:11

11 For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility.

2 Nephi 2:15

15 And to bring about his eternal purposes in the end of man, after he had created our first parents, and the beasts of the field and the fowls of the air, and in fine, all things which are created, it must needs be that there was an opposition; even the forbidden fruit in opposition to the tree of life; the one being sweet and the other bitter.

If there was no evil, God could not have existed in the first place. The following points will shed some light on the subject.

2. Intelligence: Before we were spirits, we wer called intelligence or light. All intelligences are eternal and have no beginning and no end. Some intelligences are more noble and great than others. Think of it like having a group of people in a room. Are not some people going to be more diligent in obeying the laws/commandments than others? Some people only do enough to get by while others will work as hard as they can until the end. The point is, that not all intelligence is the same. The old memorized missionary discussions said that we were unique individuals before we came here. Abraham was told by the Lord that he was among the noble and great ones. Abraham said that he saw intelligences become spirits.

Doctrine and Covenants 93:29

29 Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.

Abraham 3:21-23

21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the aworks which my hands have made, wherein my bwisdom excelleth them all, for I crule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the aintelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the bnoble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast achosen before thou wast born.

3. Spirit Body: Our heavenly parents created a perfect spirit body. Our intelligence was placed into that spirit body giving it life. It is no different than your spirit being placed into your physcial body to give it life ("For as the body without the spirit is dead,..." James 2:26) One way to look at a mortal man would be the concept of a tri-entity. We are intelligence, spirit, and mortal flesh-one day to become immortal flesh.

King Follet Discourse: Joseph spoke of this

God made a tabernacle and put a spirit into it, and it became a living soul. (Refers to the Bible.) How does it read in the Hebrew? It does not say in the Hebrew that God created the spirit of man. It says, “God made man out of the earth and put into him Adam’s spirit, and so became a living body.”

… that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all. God himself could not create himself.

Joseph Smith is referring to the intelligence of man when he says, "...that God never had the power to create the spirit of man at all." He is saying that we have always existed. He did not break it down to intelligences, probably because he was talking to a group of 20,000 people and he was trying to prove a different point.

Conclusion: In the end, God never created our intelligence, and evil has always existed. God is the most intelligent of all, and set laws to help you and I progress as much as we allow ourselves. "All the minds and spirits that God ever sent into the world are susceptible of enlargement. Joseph Smith-King Follett Discourse." The laws are in place, and all you and I have to do is learn the first law of heaven-obedience. Through our obedience, we can become "joint heirs with Christ" and inherit all that the Father has.

I wrote this on my lunch break to help answer the origional question. I haven't even proof read it because I am out of time. There are many more scriptures and quotes that can be added to this, and many of my comments only touch on one part of the meaning of a scripture. Please enjoy and ask away. I hope this helps!

[prisonchaplain]

I have heard it said that evil is anything apart from God, and that it came into being when God allowed free will.

[HiJolly]

Why is no one quoting the Old Testament?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

• Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
• Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

...that said, I agree that evil is a choice, which God insists giving to us. Satan is the poster child for bad choices, IMO.

[missionary0204]

Prisonchaplain, the Book of Mormon in many places talks about how there has always been opposition is ALL things or there never could have been righteousness in the first place. I cannot think of any scriptural references or quotes that teach that God allowed us to have free will. I am under the impression that agency, not free agency, has always been, but that God made it possible for us to excerise agency in a way that would provide further progression. I'm going to post an interesting quote from Joseph Smith Jr. that can stimulate our minds for a little while.

King Follett Discourse:

The first principles of man are self-existent with God. God himself, finding he was in the midst of spirits and glory, because he was more intelligent, saw proper to institute laws whereby the rest could have a privilege to advance like himself. The relationship we have with God places us in a situation to advance in knowledge. He has power to institute laws to instruct the weaker intelligences, that they may be exalted with Himself, so that they might have one glory upon another, and all that knowledge, power, glory, and intelligence, which is requisite in order to save them in the world of spirits.

Abraham 3:19

19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

These references along with many others also lead me to believe that there is no God above our Father in Heaven but this is not the topic at hand.

HiJolly, an interested point to add is the thought that Lucifer did not need anyone to temp him to sin. I love this idea. I have heard many times from different people that we need Satan to sin. I refute the idea. We can sin without him just like he did. If we needed him, then he would be completely responsible for any bad choice we made. The real case is that he can only tempt us, but in the end, we are held responsible for our own actions and the Lord promised that we will not be tempted beyond our ability-for there is enmity between us.

To all, please feel free to add any thoughts, opinions, or insight that might stimulate our minds and bring us to a new level of understand. I remember hearing one of the LDS prophets teach that we should consider all that has been said on the subject and then pray and make a decision. This has been a good practice for me on my journey in attempting to understand the mysteries of the Kingdom of God which we have all been commanded to seek after-within reason of course.

[Traveler]

Why is no one quoting the Old Testament?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

...

that said, I agree that evil is a choice, which God insists giving to us. Satan is the poster child for bad choices, IMO.

From the Dead Sea Scrolls Isaiah document: ...I occasion peace and cause calamity."

I think there is a misunderstanding - sin is a choice but in mortality we all experience evil regardless of our choices. Even Christ experienced evil and suffered for all of use but he never chose evil. Sometimes I think that there is not a clear understanding between good and evil - So here is the question --- what is the good that all mankind experiences (according to scripture) and what is the evil that all mankind experience (according to scripture). What are the two points of good and evil) that we all experience because of the partaking of the fruit?

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

HiJolly, an interested point to add is the thought that Lucifer did not need anyone to temp him to sin. I love this idea. I have heard many times from different people that we need Satan to sin. I refute the idea. We can sin without him just like he did. If we needed him, then he would be completely responsible for any bad choice we made. The real case is that he can only tempt us, but in the end, we are held responsible for our own actions and the Lord promised that we will not be tempted beyond our ability-for there is enmity between us.

You are right, we are responsible for our own actions but the thing to keep in mind is that we are not responsible for all our actions. We are responsible for the actions that God is expecting us to act on, our stewardship. And the things we are "tempted" with may not include all the things we have to endure. The most extreme example of this is to think about the situation a person with Down's syndrome is in. ...then you will see my point. (Whenever you use the word 'completely, you may paint yourself into a corner.)

Did Jesus need to be tempted by Satan after His 40 day fast? Was there anything accomplished by Him overcoming that temptation that He couldn't have proven on His own or done on His own without the interaction with Satan?

If one arrives at the conclusion that Jesus needed to be tempted by Satan to overcome all things, then by your thinking would you say that Satan is responsible for Jesus success (at least in part)? If Jesus didn't need Satan's interaction then why did it happen?

Likewise, did Adam and Eve need to interact with Satan? They did interact, so was that unnecessary? Since Satan contributed to the temptation in the garden of Eden, is he, at least in part responsible for the end result of going through this mortal probation and onto eternal glory?

I think if you reason through it you will see that responsibility can only take place where authority and power for that thing is given. Also the power and authority over certain "stewardship" can be measured, it does not have to be an all or nothing amount ... I am responsible or he is responsible. I am responsible for the stewardship I have been given. The guy with the 5 talents over his 5 talents, the guy with 2 over his and the guy with one over his.

If a person has a seizure for the first time, without any previous medical history of such, while driving and kills a person, who is responsible for that death? Responsibility can only be there if power and authority for that thing are available. When a volcano erupts and wipes out thousands, will the lava be held responsible?

[missionary0204]

Traveler, I'm going to stab at this, but I need further clarification on what your asking about to better understand the question. Respond with additional insight or thought please. I truely enjoy good insight.

Partaking of the fruit made it possible for mankind to experience the "knowledge" of both good and evil, thus the forbidden fruit concept. Adam and Eve in their immortal state were as little children according to scripture. Being mortal permits one to experience physical emotions and feelings that compel us in good and evil ways. The fruit brought a "change" to the body which was necessary for our eternal progression through experiences. The challenge now is to prove ourselves, throughout these experiences, to gain knowlede which is vital to our eternal progression. The body is the gift from proving ourselves in our first estate. Eternal Life, as joint heirs with Christ, is the gift for keeping the second estate (Romans 8).

Pick away!

[C_T_R]

Why is no one quoting the Old Testament?

I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things. (Isaiah 45:7, KJV)

• Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it? (Amos 3:6, KJV)
• Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? (Lamentations 3:38)

...that said, I agree that evil is a choice, which God insists giving to us. Satan is the poster child for bad choices, IMO.

No, God does not create evil. He would cease to be God. He allows evil things to happen because of our choices, and also for our clinical experience. He also gives people some pretty intensely painful trials that some could call "evil" when it's anything but. The difference between God's chastening and Evil is that God does it ONLY for our good if we bear it. Evil? There's no point. It isn't a means to an end, it's just an end. Needless. Empty. Suffering without any cause to progress.

When he says "shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?" I believe it's saying either that God is chastening His people, or allowed evil to come upon them, or the people in the city have chosen evil, and because of free agency, the Lord made that possible.

I would also add that both the Old and New testament is something we believe, "as far as it is translated correctly." We embrace the King James' version, but I don't know that it's infallable due to the many hands it passed through to get to our day. I think reading our other works gives one a clear and accurate depiction of who God is, and what His character is like. He is consistent. When you get a clear view of who He is, reading the Bible can be a different experience.

Edited August 30, 2012 by C_T_R

[Traveler]

Traveler, I'm going to stab at this, but I need further clarification on what your asking about to better understand the question. Respond with additional insight or thought please. I truely enjoy good insight.

Partaking of the fruit made it possible for mankind to experience the "knowledge" of both good and evil, thus the forbidden fruit concept. Adam and Eve in their immortal state were as little children according to scripture. Being mortal permits one to experience physical emotions and feelings that compel us in good and evil ways. The fruit brought a "change" to the body which was necessary for our eternal progression through experiences. The challenge now is to prove ourselves, throughout these experiences, to gain knowlede which is vital to our eternal progression. The body is the gift from proving ourselves in our first estate. Eternal Life, as joint heirs with Christ, is the gift for keeping the second estate (Romans 8).

Pick away!

I submit that the good and evil refers to things that we could not experience without becoming mortal. Thus evil is death - in particular death of the spirit or spiritual death - being separated from G-d - but physical is also a part of this but not the main thing.

Good is the sacrifice of Christ - giving himself as a sacrifice for sin. An that we to (on a much smaller scale) can sacrifice for sin - by forgiving others - thus we learn the goodness of G-d's love and the goodness of exercising such love ourselves.

The Traveler

[Seminarysnoozer]

Conclusion: In the end, God never created our intelligence, and evil has always existed.

Can evil exist in God's presence?

I think, as Traveler was saying, evil, by definition, is found separated from God.

If all of us who were in the presence of God and kept our first estate, thus remaining in the presence of God before coming here then there could be no evil in us. There could be potential for it, but it doesn't have to be existent before the potential reveals itself.

If I go rock climbing, I am not going to reveal my inability to climb the rock before I start the climb and in the same light I wouldn't reveal my ability to climb the rock as I am still walking up to it. As I walk to the rock, before I attempt to climb, I have not yet fallen or ascended. Prior to the climb, I haven't yet been given the opportunity to do either one.

[Misshalfway]

I just want to know who thought up hemorrhoids. They are pretty evil, don't you think?

Edited September 1, 2012 by Misshalfway

[missionary0204]

I appreciate the comments so far. Please feel free to share additional insight to what has been said for we desire to "put new wine in new bottles."

[Seminarysnoozer]

I appreciate the comments so far. Please feel free to share additional insight to what has been said for we desire to "put new wine in new bottles."

Do you have a new bottle?