Does Being "born Again" Mean Better Behavior?

[Jenda]

As a mormon, do you believe you are saved by grace AFTER all you've done? This belief implies that works still effect salvation, and extra-biblical concept.

As a person who is not Mormon, B) , but who believes in the restored gospel a la 1830ish, I believe that grace is what saves us. Period. But, as a believer in the restoration, I also believe in the three glories as outlined in the D&C (which I know you don't accept, but YOU asked.) You seem to be of the opinion that all will be saved in some way or another, well, I do, also, but I believe that because of the glories. As we will be judged by our works, it is safe to say that, in some way or another, we will all be saved to one of the glories.

Who judges us? Read John 5:22 and John 3:16/17 before you answer.

Funny, John 3:16 in my Bible states that ".........that whosoever believeth in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." That sure sounds like a covenant to me! We saw in James 2:17 that faith without works is dead, so if we want to have eternal life, according to John 3:16, we need our works to make our faith complete, or we won't be saved.

I may be dense, but I don't see how John 5:22 speaks to anything except that it is Christ who will judge us, which I agree with.

Of course I am NOT. You are giving the thief credit for things he never did. the facts are very simple, the thief did nothing of merit after Jesus spoke with him.

Of course the thief did nothing, he was dead. But while we are judged by our works, our works plainly bespeak the intentions of our heart. That is what is being judged. They say that the road to hell is paved with good intentions. That is because if it doesn't go beyond good intentions, then there is no commitment, no faith.

And again, only God can judge the intentions of our hearts.

but you can't get into heaven without your works

Can you back that up with scripture specifying that?

Sure. Oh, you mean scripture you will accept.

Sure. I will start by reposting James 2. Your previous remark regarding this scripture is off to say the least. What do you think is meant by saving if it doesn't mean eternal salvation?

James 2:14-17

14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

I won't repost the Matthew scripture, but the same applies there. By their fruits ye shall know them. And Narrow is the way that leadeth to life..... What "life" do you think he is referring to? Care to guess "eternal life"?

Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate. (If you deny God, you will not be saved.)

Paul talks a lot of justification. He makes the point that we are not justified by works, rather by mercy. I agree with him completely. You, however, don't seem to see the difference between justification and judgment. They are two different things. Justification is the legal end of thing. It is the means whereby we are saved. Judgment is the way God determines who is eligible for justification. Read my comments about John 3:16 again.

[Lindy]

Lot of people here ask me what I think, all the time, and thank me for answering, even right on this thread.

Snow.....THANK YOU! See....I will say it in public (and on this thread) and not hide behind a pm this time! I appreciate you.....and all the others who help keep us thinking and learning and progressing. I even thank the anti's and the ex-mo's I have met who have helped strengthen my relationship with Christ.

I have a special spot in my heart for those who regard themselves as "born again" because I know that it took more than a little thought on their part to come to the decision to rededicate their lives to Christ. But I agree that their lives need to change to "prove" that they took this dedication seriously. Talk is cheap, actions speak louder than words....One of the biggest impacts I can say I have had in my life was to realize that I was heading into the catagory of those "who acknowdedge Jesus with their lips, then walk out the door and deny Him by their lifestyle."

I think that sometimes we all need to give ourselves a reality check, and ask ourselves....is this the way Jesus wants us to live our life? Are we showing others by our behavior what we think of our faith and/or relationship with God and/or Christ?

I guess it really depends on where we stand in that relationship, that determines our behavior.

[Behunin]

Originally posted by Snow+Mar 16 2004, 11:35 PM--></span><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (Snow @ Mar 16 2004, 11:35 PM)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'> <!--QuoteBegin--Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 09:49 PM

Nobody asked you what you thought! This is a discussion about what the bible says, therefore it's out of your realm of understanding. When the discussion turns to mindless insults and demonstrations of self righteousness, it will be up your alley.

BZZZZZ!

Sorry wrong answer. Lot of people here ask me what I think, all the time, and thank me for answering, even right on this thread. And NO, Trident, this no a discussion of wht the Bible says. This is a discussion about "Does Being "born Again" Mean Better Behavior?, interesting statistics." Now I may not be a Bible scholar but being honest, I know more than you. Remember when you had no clue what Maccabbees was or that it was part of the Bible. Nuff said.

Were those enough scriptures above or did you need more?

Very good Snow!

[Outshined]

I want to know what Snow thinks of all this, and thank him in advance for his answer........

[Outshined]

Originally posted by Snow@Mar 16 2004, 11:35 PM

And NO, Trident, this no a discussion of wht the Bible says. This is a discussion about "Does Being "born Again" Mean Better Behavior?

The answer is yes. If one is saved, their behavior will reflect it, otherwise it is just lip service.

[Guest TheProudDuck]

The flaw in that logic lies in its equating "works-salvation" with "earn[ing] your way to heaven." They're not the same thing.

Yes they are.

Now that's what I call a devastating, exhaustive rebuttal!

[Snow]

Originally posted by Outshined@Mar 17 2004, 10:36 AM

I want to know what Snow thinks of all this, and thank him in advance for his answer........

Well thanks for asking Outshined,

Trident has been using the story of the thief on the cross [Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.] as evidence that works are not required for salvation.

-First, if that were the case, then it would be contrary to the dozens and dozens of scriptures I posted earlier in this thread.

-Second, no one really knows what Christ said. All we know is what the anonymous author of Luke said about it decades and decades after the fact. Actually, since we don’t have the original manuscript, we don’t even know that, but regardless, was the anonymous author of Luke standing so close to the crucifixion that he overhead what was said? That’s highly doubtful. He was probably relying on decades old, oral stories.

-Third, If Christ said anything to the thief on the cross, the other three authors of the gospels didn’t think it important enough to mention.

-Forth: Even if Christ said it, it doesn’t mean what Trident thinks it means:

Christ did not say that the man would be saved. The thief was told that he would be with Christ in “paradise” that day. Yet three days later Christ appeared to Mary and told her, "Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father; but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father; and to my God, and your God" (John 20:17) Ostensibly, heaven is the place where God dwells and Christ had not yet been there. So wherever “paradise” was, it was not heaven. Obviously the man and Christ had to be someplace else.

PARADISE is Persian word meaning a garden. It is not found in the O.T. In the N.T. it occurs in Luke 23: 43, 2 Cor. 12: 4, and Rev. 2: 7. Paradise is that part of the spirit world in which spirits who have departed from this life await the resurrection of the body. It’s condition of happiness and peace. That is a pretty well-known point. You can read many Greek Lexicons and Bible commentaries on the topic – non-LDS sources of course:

John Wesley's Explanatory Notes

on the Whole Bible

23:43 In paradise - The place where the souls of the righteous remain from death till the resurrection. As if he had said, I will not only remember thee then, but this very day.

Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament

Today shalt thou be with me in Paradise (Shmeron met emou esh en twi paradeiswi). Jews did use the word for the abode of the dead till the resurrection, interpreting "Abraham's bosom" (Luke 16:22) in this sense also.

Greek Bible Lexicon

…the Greek word for paradise can mean the part of Hades which was thought by the later Jews to be the abode of the souls until the resurrection: but some understand this to be a heavenly paradise.

Fifth,

We LDS believe that the thief was saved in the sense of a general salvation and so was to be resurrected through the atonement of Jesus Christ, regardless of any good works he may or may not have done.