Does Being "born Again" Mean Better Behavior?

[Cal]

A survey conducted by the Roper Organization found that behavior deteriorated after "born again" experiences. While only 4% of respondents said they had driven intoxicated before being "born again," 12% had done so after conversion. Similarly, 5% had used illegal drugs before conversion, 9% after. Two percent admitted to engaging in illicit sex before salvation; 5% after. ["Freethought Today", September 1991, p. 12.]

Comments?

[Guest lt]

....I have see to many of my friends who are and they still drink and drive, they still swear, have premarital sex, they still put down people of other religions, personally all in all they haven't changed at all. They have just added a label to themselves....

I do have one friend who is an awesome born again, she doesnt drink, smoke, swear, and she goes to a regular bible study class along with church, its like she is a new person...so for her YIPPEEE, I'm jazzed she has progressed so far.

So I guess it all depends on how much effort people are putting in, not all born again christians are fake!!!!but allot are.....

[Guest TheProudDuck]

One common Evangelical contention is that once a person has been "born again," he loses the desire to sin.

The Freethought survey compels one of four conclusions:

1) Being "born again" doesn't work the way Evangelicals say it does.

2) Born-agains don't have any desire to have illicit sex, but do it anyway for some other reason.

3) The conduct noted in the Freethought survey isn't really sinful.

4) A large number of people who claim to have been "born again," really haven't.

[Snow]

Originally posted by TheProudDuck@Mar 15 2004, 12:05 PM

The Freethought survey compels one of four conclusions:

Or:

5: A significant number of those identifying themselves as born-again were fairly young at the time they became born-again and therefore had less chance to have engaged in vice-related behavior than they had after becoming born-again.

I betcha anything that more Mormons (in areas where conversion is not the biggest driver of Church membership) engaged in illicit sex, drugs and alcohol, AFTER getting baptised than before.

[AFDaw]

Very interesting Cal. And very interesting take Snow.

I'm not sure I actually understand the whole "born again' term, but I am familiar with the term "being saved" and I would guess that some think that because they are "saved" they can honestly do whatever they want without fear of going to hell. At least in my neck of the woods that's true.

[Guest Starsky]

I wonder if they were truly changed...filled with charity/endurence power...Moroni 7:47-48.

I wonder if they do what it takes to keep their pure heart as outlined in Mosiah 4:12-16...

I wonder if they no longer desire to do evil..but still make mistakes...

What does it mean to be born again? maybe it just means we have opened a door to Christ...and now must walk through it...maybe it means we found the path...but still must stay on it...

I don't know...I know I experienced being born again and the effects lasted without any effort for months...but after a while of not doing much...I deteriorated...and had to work harder and more consistently to keep that Spirit to that same capasity that I received at the time of 'rebirth'..

Anyway...that's my take on it.

[Tr2]

Being born again has absolutely nothing to do with a peson's behavior. When a person is born again that means their spirit has been born again. Being born again enables behavior the change, not the other way around.

The bible refers to three terms of salvation: we were saved, we're being saved, we will be saved. "We were saved" is about our spirit, this happens when we accept Jesus as our savior. "We are being saved" is about the condition of our mind, will, emotions, personality etc. Heart falls into that category. "We are being saved" is about our bodies. We will one day have a restored body and that will only happen when we go to heaven. Our body is an earth suit.

If you want to judge behavior as being born again, there is no such thing. Your behavior is all about the way you live your life. To say that one's behavior dictates whether they are born again or not is works-salvation and removes Jesus from any equation. Jesus is not a necessary element for somebody who tries to get to heaven based on their own worthiness.

[Outshined]

Unfortunately, when someone claims he or she is "born again", we usually look to their behavior to back up the claim. Anyone can claim Christianity, living it is another thing entirely.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 15 2004, 01:31 PM

Being born again has absolutely nothing to do with a peson's behavior. Being born again enables behavior the change, not the other way around.

Well which is it?

Does being born-again have "absolutely nothing to do with a person's behavior," or does "being again enable(s) the behavior change." It can't be both.

[Tr2]

Repentance means to change your behavior. Do we agree that repentance is a gift from God? I don't believe that repentance can be found outside of the grace of God. If a person is not born again, they have cut themselves off of this gift. Is it God witholding it, no. God's light will not shine in a dakrness that we willfully choose. When a person's spirit is born again and renewed in Christ, they have enabled themselves to walk in this gift of repentance and thus the possibility for real change of behavior is present.

If a 20 year postitute and crack addict's spirit is born again, their mind, will and emotions do not change. I have never spoken to one person who, because they were saved, forgot any of the pain they experienced in life. Our behavior changes slowly over time, but we are already saved. Our soul (mind, will, emotions, personality, etc) are all in the process of being saved.

The way a person behaves is not relevant to their salvation. The only reason God wants people to act holy is so they can enjoy their life on earth and help others come into the gift of salvation.

Don't know if I provided any clarity.

[Jenda]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 15 2004, 02:43 PM

Repentance means to change your behavior. Do we agree that repentance is a gift from God? I don't believe that repentance can be found outside of the grace of God. If a person is not born again, they have cut themselves off of this gift. Is it God witholding it, no. God's light will not shine in a dakrness that we willfully choose. When a person's spirit is born again and renewed in Christ, they have enabled themselves to walk in this gift of repentance and thus the possibility for real change of behavior is present.

If a 20 year postitute and crack addict's spirit is born again, their mind, will and emotions do not change. I have never spoken to one person who, because they were saved, forgot any of the pain they experienced in life. Our behavior changes slowly over time, but we are already saved. Our soul (mind, will, emotions, personality, etc) are all in the process of being saved.

The way a person behaves is not relevant to their salvation. The only reason God wants people to act holy is so they can enjoy their life on earth and help others come into the gift of salvation.

Don't know if I provided any clarity.

Sorry, I disagree completely!!!

I have been born-again (to use the phrase), and my life changed 180 degrees INSTANTLY. There is no way someone can have an experience like that and not be changed. If you are referring to someone just making the statement that they have accepted Christ, it must be based in truth or it isn't true. Get it? If it isn't based on fact, it is just something to say. If it is based on truth, then they will produce fruits worthy of being called Christian.

Sorry, I don't go with the 'once-saved-always-saved' routine where you can say you have accepted Christ and then just turn around and do whatever you want.

[Lindy]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 15 2004, 02:43 PM

Repentance means to change your behavior. Do we agree that repentance is a gift from God? I don't believe that repentance can be found outside of the grace of God. If a person is not born again, they have cut themselves off of this gift. Is it God witholding it, no. God's light will not shine in a dakrness that we willfully choose. When a person's spirit is born again and renewed in Christ, they have enabled themselves to walk in this gift of repentance and thus the possibility for real change of behavior is present.

If a 20 year postitute and crack addict's spirit is born again, their mind, will and emotions do not change. I have never spoken to one person who, because they were saved, forgot any of the pain they experienced in life. Our behavior changes slowly over time, but we are already saved. Our soul (mind, will, emotions, personality, etc) are all in the process of being saved.

The way a person behaves is not relevant to their salvation. The only reason God wants people to act holy is so they can enjoy their life on earth and help others come into the gift of salvation.

Don't know if I provided any clarity.

Good statement T!

You made some very good points...but I will disagree with you on this

The way a person behaves is not relevant to their salvation.

I have to agree with Outshined

...we usually look to their behavior to back up the claim. Anyone can claim Christianity, living it is another thing entirely.

What is the point of giving your life to Christ if you don't show by your actions that you are serious in your conversion?

You don't think that it is relevant behavior if person who is "born again" commits heinous crimes against others? Salvation itself is sufficient to "save" those who just say the word?

:) Jenda! I totally agree with you....

Sorry, I don't go with the 'once-saved-always-saved' routine where you can say you have accepted Christ and then just turn around and do whatever you want.

It is one of the biggest disappointmens to meet someone who doesn't give a rip what they do in their life that may offend others, OR God. It is hard to understand their justifications of sinning, (when they know it's wrong) they justify it with "it's ok....I'm saved"

One of my favorite quotes is a song lyric.....

"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today

Is christians who acknowledge jesus with their lips

Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.

That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

[Jenda]

One of my favorite quotes is a song lyric.....

"The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today

Is christians who acknowledge jesus with their lips

Then walk out the door and deny him by their lifestyle.

That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable."

Lindy, I have never heard this song before, but the words are right on. B)

[Tr2]

Sorry, I don't go with the 'once-saved-always-saved' routine where you can say you have accepted Christ and then just turn around and do whatever you want.

I never said that, you're reading what I didn't say. I never said that all a person has to do is SAY they were born again. Being born again is not something you or I can judge because neither of us can see the spirit of another person. We can see the parts of people that are being saved mind(though that's kind of a stretch), will, emotions.

I once lived under the notion that behavior dictated where you were spending eternity. I found that I had absolutely no biblical basis for believing that. That is one of the things that man made up somewhere. It is a man-made theology. I did find a few interesting examples that contradicted my whole train of thought:

1- The thief on the cross. He was sorry for what he did, that is evident by his remorse. But he did not live life deserving of anything good. I know some people on this board wold like to think he was a good man. He was on a cross, sentenced to death. The ones who were put on crosses were considered enemies of Rome who had been convicted in a court of law. Jesus called him a thief for a reason.

2- The story of the lost son. There were 2 sons. One acted right and the other did not. One was a faithful son and the other was a rebel who threw his inheritance away. At the end of this story we see that the father had equal love for his children. Some people think that because his father promised him everything he had, that means he was rewarded for his service. The older brother received all his father had because that was his birth right, not because he earned it or acted righteous enough to receive it. The way that culture worked is if there were 2 brothers, the younger would get 1/3 and the older would get 2/3. The moment the younger son received his 1/3 basic math will tell you that 3/3 minum 1/3 = 2/3 (exactly how much his birthright claimed for him). Both of these sons received what they were destined to have, rgeardless of their actions.

It is tough for most people to comprehend the fact that God gives people that they don't deserve. I am not God and don't make the rules. Some people need to understand that. Our world rewards good behavior. If you do well in school, you are rewarded by being able to go to a good college. if you perform well at work, you get a raise. The world's system is like this, but God is not.

I have been born-again (to use the phrase), and my life changed 180 degrees INSTANTLY. There is no way someone can have an experience like that and not be changed.

I see this all the time, I even went through it a few times. It is nothing more than an emotional experience. Why do I say that? Because I see the changes that people do go through. There is a pocket of people at my church who go to conferences on a semi-regular basis. They come back like whole new people because of what they've experienced. But that only lasts for a period of time, usually around 2 weeks.

When people first find Jesus their responses are usually the same, tremendous joy and they can't help but tell other people. This is far from what most people end up like. Unless you experience that same joy and eagerness to tell everybody you see about Jesus all the time, then it is nothing more than an emotional response dictated by your mind, will, and emotions.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 02:08 PM

Being born again is not something you or I can judge because neither of us can see the spirit of another person.

I see this all the time, ["I have been born-again (to use the phrase), and my life changed 180 degrees INSTANTLY. There is no way someone can have an experience like that and not be changed." -- Jenda] I even went through it a few times. It is nothing more than an emotional experience.

Well which is it going to be Trident? Either you can't judge whether someone else is born-again or you can? Fisrt you say you can't then you tell Jenda that it nothing more than an emotional experience. Your first guess was right. You have no idea.

I am not God and don't make the rules. Some people need to understand that.

Just which one of us do you think was mistaking you for a supreme being?

[Jenda]

I once lived under the notion that behavior dictated where you were spending eternity. I found that I had absolutely no biblical basis for believing that. That is one of the things that man made up somewhere. It is a man-made theology. I did find a few interesting examples that contradicted my whole train of thought:

1- The thief on the cross. He was sorry for what he did, that is evident by his remorse. But he did not live life deserving of anything good. I know some people on this board wold like to think he was a good man. He was on a cross, sentenced to death. The ones who were put on crosses were considered enemies of Rome who had been convicted in a court of law. Jesus called him a thief for a reason.

2- The story of the lost son. There were 2 sons. One acted right and the other did not. One was a faithful son and the other was a rebel who threw his inheritance away. At the end of this story we see that the father had equal love for his children. Some people think that because his father promised him everything he had, that means he was rewarded for his service. The older brother received all his father had because that was his birth right, not because he earned it or acted righteous enough to receive it. The way that culture worked is if there were 2 brothers, the younger would get 1/3 and the older would get 2/3. The moment the younger son received his 1/3 basic math will tell you that 3/3 minum 1/3 = 2/3 (exactly how much his birthright claimed for him). Both of these sons received what they were destined to have, rgeardless of their actions.

I hate to argue the point, but the scriptures are full of "works" being required.

Matthew 7:13-20

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Matthew 16:27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

James 2:14-17

14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,

16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Your first example is not a good example in this situation because the thief on the cross died minutes after accepting Jesus as his Savior. It is not what happens before one accepts Him, it is what one does after they accept Him. Had the thief on the cross had a chance to live, it is what his actions would be then that would determine if he had truly accepted Christ.

I see this all the time, I even went through it a few times. It is nothing more than an emotional experience. Why do I say that? Because I see the changes that people do go through. There is a pocket of people at my church who go to conferences on a semi-regular basis. They come back like whole new people because of what they've experienced. But that only lasts for a period of time, usually around 2 weeks.

When people first find Jesus their responses are usually the same, tremendous joy and they can't help but tell other people. This is far from what most people end up like. Unless you experience that same joy and eagerness to tell everybody you see about Jesus all the time, then it is nothing more than an emotional response dictated by your mind, will, and emotions.

Well, if their life were truly changed, it would be a permanent thing. It has been 25+ years since my first experience, and every day I walk with God and He ministers to me. If is is an emotional response then it is natural that it dies, but that doesn't mean that they have really accepted Christ. True, I can't make that judgment, but given all the scriptures that tie faith and works, it just seems natural.

[Tr2]

Works-salvation is anti-christ theology because if you can earn your way to heaven then you do not need Christ to get there.

Matthew 7:13-20 - This scripture doesn't indicate anything. It simply states that you enter the wide gate or you enter the narrow one. It does not suggest that works dictate which one you'll go through.

Matthew 16:27 - It is a very big assumption to think that this is speaking of where you spend eternity. Does not state that works will make a difference between heaven and hell.

James 2:14-17 - Again, does not state that works will make a difference between heaven and hell.

Had the thief on the cross had a chance to live, it is what his actions would be then that would determine if he had truly accepted Christ.

BUT HE DIDN'T! Do you think the Armed Forces are ever going to give out a Medal of Honor to somebody for what they MIGHT do in the future? Is there any biblical basis for believing God gives out prizes for potential good works? Again, a man-made theology.

It has been 25+ years since my first experience, and every day I walk with God and He ministers to me

No disrespect, but everybody says that. My evidence never comes from what a person says, but what others say about them. I've found that asking somebody's spouse is the real indicator of where they are. There is nothing easier than self deception. If I ever want to know where I'm truly at, I ask my wife because she sees me from a point of view that I am uncapable of.

If is is an emotional response then it is natural that it dies, but that doesn't mean that they have really accepted Christ

Irue, I just wanted to show that it is a poor indicator that somebody actually did.

True, I can't make that judgment, but given all the scriptures that tie faith and works, it just seems natural.

That is correct. Faith and works are tied together a lot. However they are NEVER tied together in terms of eternal destiny being affected by our works. I don't understand why but religious people seem to always value performance and works ahead of what is in their heart. I always look at motives, not the works themselves. There is no closeness between man and God if man must earn every bit of love himself. The more man must do means the less that God must do. If you want a religion that is based around man's righteousness rather than God's goodness, then works-salvation might be for you.

[Jenda]

Works-salvation is anti-christ theology because if you can earn your way to heaven then you do not need Christ to get there.

I am bad. I meant to put into my post that we are not saved by works. We are saved by grace. We are judged by works. This clarifies my belief.

Matthew 7:13-20 - This scripture doesn't indicate anything. It simply states that you enter the wide gate or you enter the narrow one. It does not suggest that works dictate which one you'll go through.

Matthew 16:27 - It is a very big assumption to think that this is speaking of where you spend eternity. Does not state that works will make a difference between heaven and hell.

James 2:14-17 - Again, does not state that works will make a difference between heaven and hell.

This all becomes clearer with my clarification. We are judged by our works. It does indeed determine where we will end up eternally. That is exactly what Matthew 16 states.

 

Had the thief on the cross had a chance to live, it is what his actions would be then that would determine if he had truly accepted Christ.

BUT HE DIDN'T! Do you think the Armed Forces are ever going to give out a Medal of Honor to somebody for what they MIGHT do in the future? Is there any biblical basis for believing God gives out prizes for potential good works? Again, a man-made theology.

You're kidding, right? I mean, when one has an experience with God, they are forgiven and told "Go and sin no more". It is what happens after that that determines whether that experience is a life-changing experience or not, not what has happened previously to it. Once you are forgiven, you are forgiven. God doesn't continue to bring it back up. "Go and sin no more" means from this point on.

It has been 25+ years since my first experience, and every day I walk with God and He ministers to me

No disrespect, but everybody says that. My evidence never comes from what a person says, but what others say about them. I've found that asking somebody's spouse is the real indicator of where they are. There is nothing easier than self deception. If I ever want to know where I'm truly at, I ask my wife because she sees me from a point of view that I am uncapable of.

No disrespect to your no disrespect, but I know the sins I have. I am capable of understanding just where I need to improve. I can tell when I am far from God and when I am close to Him. Sure, go ask my husband. He will tell you all of my petty idiosyncrasies, but he can't judge what is in my heart. Remember, Christ wasn't a prophet in his home town, either.

 

If is is an emotional response then it is natural that it dies, but that doesn't mean that they have really accepted Christ

Irue, I just wanted to show that it is a poor indicator that somebody actually did.

 

True, I can't make that judgment, but given all the scriptures that tie faith and works, it just seems natural.

That is correct. Faith and works are tied together a lot. However they are NEVER tied together in terms of eternal destiny being affected by our works. I don't understand why but religious people seem to always value performance and works ahead of what is in their heart. I always look at motives, not the works themselves. There is no closeness between man and God if man must earn every bit of love himself. The more man must do means the less that God must do. If you want a religion that is based around man's righteousness rather than God's goodness, then works-salvation might be for you.

If one looked at it as something you need to do to earn a place in heaven, then they will never get to heaven because the motivation is wrong. They should do it because it pleases God and helps his fellow man. The main thing that one can do to to try to earn a place in heaven is the one thing that will keep them from heaven. You can't work your way into heaven, but you can't get into heaven without your works.

[Outshined]

Good post, Jenda!

[Guest TheProudDuck]

Works-salvation is anti-christ theology because if you can earn your way to heaven then you do not need Christ to get there.

The flaw in that logic lies in its equating "works-salvation" with "earn[ing] your way to heaven." They're not the same thing.

The multitude of scriptures that state that some effort on the part of the believer is required for grace to be effective -- "works-salvation" say, essentially, that the means by which Christ's grace is accepted is the disciple's taking up his cross and following the Lord; that is, trusting in him, obeying his commandments, and suffering with him. That doesn't eliminate the need for Christ's redemption; without it, those works would be morally admirable, but they wouldn't have the effect of enabling the worker to be resurrected, or of cancelling out those occasions where he stumbled. Christ's gospel pertaining to the Christian life teaches, essentially, that if a person lives that life, it triggers the kind of change that is necessary for a person to receive eternal life.

"Earning" one's way to heaven would only be possible if this kind of change were possible without Christ's intercession. Which is impossible and absurd, if only because a man who dies full of good works is still dead. He can't resurrect himself.

Now, if you believe that the basis for God's granting a person eternal life is whether the person has done more good works than bad, then yes, under that kind of a system, Christ would seem to be irrelevant. But that's not the question here. The question is whether a man puts on Christ, and so is fitted for eternal life, by saying he does, or by being a doer of Christ's word. Either way, Christ's redemption is absolutely necessary.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 05:57 PM

Works-salvation is anti-christ theology because if you can earn your way to heaven then you do not need Christ to get there.

Can anybody guess what I think when Trident starts speaking for Christ and telling us what Christ believes?

[Tr2]

We are saved by grace.

As a mormon, do you believe you are saved by grace AFTER all you've done? This belief implies that works still effect salvation, and extra-biblical concept.

We are judged by our works

Who judges us? Read John 5:22 and John 3:16/17 before you answer.

You're kidding, right?

Of course I am NOT. You are giving the thief credit for things he never did. the facts are very simple, the thief did nothing of merit after Jesus spoke with him. Neither you or I can say what this man would have done because we just don't know. You can assume, but I'll stick with the irrefutable facts. BTW, does your employer pay you on your potential or for the work that you actually do?

They should do it because it pleases God and helps his fellow man

I agree, but how many people actually live like this? Want to know a sure way to test somebody's motives? Reject what they do and look at their response. If they were doing it for another person, their response will be that of understanding because they have the interests of another in mind. But if they get upset or something else that is a sure tell-sign that they are doing it for themselves. If you are doing something for somebody else, what business do you have getting upset because they didn't like it? Weren't their interests the reason why you were doing what you were doing?

Do you ever wonder why Jesus never lashed out at the people who were putting him through the worst form of execution in the history of mankind?

but you can't get into heaven without your works

Can you back that up with scripture specifying that?

The flaw in that logic lies in its equating "works-salvation" with "earn[ing] your way to heaven." They're not the same thing.

Yes they are.

The multitude of scriptures that state that some effort on the part of the believer is required for grace to be effective

Such as?

Can anybody guess what I think when Trident starts speaking for Christ and telling us what Christ believes?

Nobody asked you what you thought! This is a discussion about what the bible says, therefore it's out of your realm of understanding. When the discussion turns to mindless insults and demonstrations of self righteousness, it will be up your alley.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 09:49 PM

We are saved by grace.

As a mormon, do you believe you are saved by grace AFTER all you've done? This belief implies that works still effect salvation, and extra-biblical concept.

BZZZZ!

Nope. Sorry wrong anwer. It all in the Bible and anyone who has read the New Testament can give you dozens of scriptures to that effect.

What you really meant, had you bothered to be honet is that the concept is extra-Trident's-narrow-interpretation-of-the-Bible.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 09:49 PM

but you can't get into heaven without your works

Can you back that up with scripture specifying that?

Gosh, how hard is this one? I don't even think I'll take the curlers out of my hair for this:

Book of Mormon teachings:

2 Nephi 25:23-29 (we access the grace of Christ by keeping our part of the covenant); Moroni 10:32; 2 Nephi 31: 17-21; Alma 34: 9-34; Alma 42; Alma 12: 31-37; Mosiah chap. 3,4, & 5; Alma 36; Mosiah 27: 24-29; Alma 22: 12-23; Hel. 14: 13; 2 Nephi 2, many others

Bible Teachings:

Diligence, patience, and enduring to the end is required to ensure our salvation:

2 Peter 1:4-10; 2 Peter 3:14-18; Heb. 12:1,7,14,15; Heb. 10:36; James 1:12; Mark 13:13; Heb. 6:15; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:7,10,11; Col. 1:22-29; James 5:7-12; 1 John 2:24-25.

Why? Rom. 8:16-18; Rev. 3:19-21; Rev. 21:7; Heb.12:9,10; Acts 17:28,29

The words of Christ himself:

His teachings show that obedience is required to obtain eternal life; there is no hint of "once saved, always saved" or instant salvation without works:

Matt. 19: 16-23 (point blank: to obtain eternal life, keep the commandments); see also Mark 10:17-30; Luke 18:18-30

Luke 10:25-28 (again: keep the commandments to be saved)

Mark 12: 28-34 (Christ teaches the two greatest commandments, and tells one who understands them that he is "not far from the kingdom of God")

Luke 11:28 (blessed are they that DO the word of God)

Sermon on the Mount

Matt. chapters 5 to 7 (focuses on works, behavior)

Matt. 5:19-21 (must keep commandments)

Matt 5:48 (must seek to be perfect)

Matt. 7:13,14 (the gate is straight and narrow)

Matt. 7:21-23 (Must DO God's will; Christians who did evil will not go to heaven)

Matt. 7:24-28 (those who do what Christ says are built on a sure foundation)

Matt. 24:13 (endure to the end to be saved) - see also Matt. 10:22 and Mark 13:13

Matt. 12:35-37 (will be judged by our words, to be condemned or justified)

Matt. 16:24-27 (we'll be judged by our works)

John 8:31-32 (we must continue in the word of Christ)

Luke 21:19 (patience is required to preserve our souls)

Luke 21:34-36 (be cautious, avoid sin, to be counted worthy to stand before God)

Mark 11:25-26 (we must forgive others to be forgiven ourselves)

John 5: 28,29 (those that do good obtain life)

John 14:15,21,23 (Christ teaches us to keep his commandments)

John 15: 1-14 (we must bear fruit, keep commandments)

Matt. 13:3-23 (parable of the sower: He warns that some receive the word and believe, but do not endure: will they be in God's kingdom? See Luke 9:24-26)

Matt. 12:50 (must do his will to have a close relationship with Christ)

Matt. 13:40-43 (parable of the tares: those in his kingdom who do evil are damned)

John 12:50 (The Father's commandment is life everlasting)

See also Luke 21: 19,34-36; Matt. 25 (esp. v. 31-46); John 3:5

Judged by works:

Rom. 2: 4-11; Rev. 20: 12-15; Matt. 16:27; Gal. 6: 7-9; Rev. 22:12-14; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Col. 3:24-25; John 5:28,29; Eccl. 12:13,14; 1 Peter 1:17; Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Rev. 2:23; 1 Peter 4:17-19.

Repentance and obedience are required for salvation:

Acts 2:37-38; Matt. 4:17; Acts 17:30,31; 2 Peter 3:9; 2 Cor. 7:9-11; Ezekiel 18:4,5,9,20-27,30-32; Ezekiel 33:11-20; Acts 26:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 24:47; Heb. 5:8,9; Rom. 2: 4-11; Prov. 4:4; Prov. 19:16; Deut. 6:17; Eccl. 12:13,14; Matt. 4:4; Deut. 8:3; 1 Sam. 15:22; Jerem. 7:23; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; Exo. 19:5; Deut. 29:9-15; John 7:17; Rom. 6:16; James 4:6-10; 2 Thess. 1:4-9; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; Matt. 5:48; Lev. 11:45; Lev. 19:2; Lev. 20:7,26; Matt. 5:19-20; Rev. 3:5,19-21; Joel 2:12,13; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; 2 Cor. 7:15; Phil. 2:8.

Saved by Grace - but we access that Grace by obedience:

Eph. 2:8; Rev. 22:12-14; Philippians 3:12-14; Heb. 5:8,9; Exodus 20:6; James 4:6-10; Matt. 5:7; 1 Peter 1:13-22.

We must do, not just believe:

James, Chapters 1 and 2; 1 John 3:18,19; Matt. 7:21-27; Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Titus 2; 1 Peter 1:22; Matt. 12:50; 1 Tim. 6:17-19.

Christians can fall from grace, so be cautious:

Heb. 12:15; 1 Cor. 10:12; 2 Pet. 1:4-10; Heb. 3: 12-14; Heb. 4:1,11; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 21:34-36; Phil. 2:12; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:26-31; 2 Cor. 6:1; Jude 1:3-13; Col. 1:23; James 5:12,19,20.

Sin can keep you out of heaven:

1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:16-26; Eph. 5:3-7; 1 Thess. 4:1-7; Col. 3:5-25; Jude 1:14-25; Heb. 12:1-17; James 4:4; Matt. 5:22; Matt. 25: 31-46; Ezek. 18.

We must grow and progress through obedience to be saved:

2 Peter 1:3-10 (heavy!); 1 John 2:4,5; Phil. 3:12-15.

[Snow]

Originally posted by Tr2@Mar 16 2004, 09:49 PM

Nobody asked you what you thought! This is a discussion about what the bible says, therefore it's out of your realm of understanding. When the discussion turns to mindless insults and demonstrations of self righteousness, it will be up your alley.

BZZZZZ!

Sorry wrong answer. Lot of people here ask me what I think, all the time, and thank me for answering, even right on this thread. And NO, Trident, this no a discussion of wht the Bible says. This is a discussion about "Does Being "born Again" Mean Better Behavior?, interesting statistics." Now I may not be a Bible scholar but being honest, I know more than you. Remember when you had no clue what Maccabbees was or that it was part of the Bible. Nuff said.

Were those enough scriptures above or did you need more?