Lds Bom Prejudice?

[sunny_surfer]

well just read a topic on racism about the whole rosie and jackson thing and it brought up some thinking which i would actually like some opinions on. I was discussion this with a pal after he saw me reading that thread and it brought up the BOM claim in about the change of skin color mentioned in the BOM. Now he isnt mormon and brought up two points. 1) why does the church still have that little paragraph in there since it doesnt seem to make any differance anymore unless your micheal jackson. 2) he asked me if I knew any white people who felt that they were a little better then colored people in any way within the church. Now he didnt mean racist or prejudice at all but wondered if people who were white thought they were more ritious and more pure so to speak then others due to that paragraph in the book.

and this really got me thinking since I myself have not experience this in the church except in maybe timid ways which i have caught every now and then. So i would like people who are members or non members to place there two cents on this since im curious if anyone has seen this or witnessed it

[Outshined]

Would you also want the Bible changed as well? What would be the point?

[Fiannan]

And parts of the Koran as well?

[lannesackman]

Okay.. I am a convert.. and slightly confused.. Could you point me in the direction of that paragraph?? then I will develop 2 cents!

[Josie]

I remember, in last Oct's General Conference, the general authories several times bringing up the issue of us accepting all mankind as equal and not holding prejudices on either side. Not them against the caucasion, nor the caucasion against any other race and that all were equal in the gospel. This is only a summary of course of what they said, but basically that is what they said.

Excuse me, I mean Oct 2005. Or else it was this springs. Not the one that just passed.

[sunny_surfer]

Okay.. I am a convert.. and slightly confused.. Could you point me in the direction of that paragraph?? then I will develop 2 cents!

we're talking about the paragraph in 2Nephi 5:21.

although no one has answered my question i mean the general authorities say a lot of things that members of the church dont always fallow or think. My question i will refrase again is if anyone has witnessed anyone think they are somehow favored because of the color of there skin being white? ex. only dating white guys. or having someone say a slight comment that doesnt seem overly prejudice but slightly is. I mean has anyone read about the Book...being Black and mormon, about a BYU professor who had to endure comment from other members who constantly reminded him how he was somehow cursed based on the color of his skin. Not to mention that BYU im not sure if this is true but my understanding is they still teach this in there seminar classes. So i fail to see how there are not members out there who would have slight prejudice favor towards themselves being of a white desend. Just thoughts since i have no doubt there are some members who think like this

[Gwen]

living in the south i have seen some of it. not so much better than another, but the marriage outside your race can become quite the issue. i have talked to some of the black members here and there seems to be a lot of critisizm on them from their old church when they join. a view of "you are leaving your ppl to join some white church like you now think you are better than us" kind of pressure and attitude. that i think must be the hardest on many converts in this area. we do have some inactives here that said they will come if we get rid of the black branch pres. lol not going to happen. so it is arround, but i don't think it is really due to anything the chruch has said so much as being the southern us.

[Josie]

I think there is pressure and prejudice on both sides of this issue by many. As far as a white refusing to date a black because of the color of their skin. I am white and would not date someone that was black, because we marry who we date and if I were young, which I am not, and wanted children, I would not want my children rediculed by both races because they were a mixed race and children do catch a great deal of flack over that. This is a prejudice world we live in. Too many times I think we fail to think about the reprocussions of our actions.

People of all races in or out of the church tend to have feelings of "being better than" as you put it or prejudice toward others. I am not saying everyone, but many. That is why the General Authorities spent much of a Conference speaking about the problem and correcting it. If we don't listen to them, we will be held accountable for it.

As far as the curse of the darker skin color, we know that this was a curse inflicted by the Lord for disobedience to his word. It is throughout the scriptures. But, we also know that that curse was lifted as he promised when the Priesthood was restored to all races. I cannot say I am better than any man that walks on this earth. We were all created equal and in God's image. We all have the same opportunity to live his gospel and receive the same Eternal blessings.

Does prejudice exist in the church? Yes! Does it exist out of the Church? Yes! Is it right? NO! Is it acceptable to the Lord? NO! Will we be held accountable for it? YES! Can I say that someone has done wrong because they have married a black, hispanic, oriental, or any other race of people? NO! Does their doing that make me better than them? NO!

[shanstress70]

I think there is pressure and prejudice on both sides of this issue by many. As far as a white refusing to date a black because of the color of their skin. I am white and would not date someone that was black, because we marry who we date and if I were young, which I am not, and wanted children, I would not want my children rediculed by both races because they were a mixed race and children do catch a great deal of flack over that. This is a prejudice world we live in. Too many times I think we fail to think about the reprocussions of our actions.

Although it may be a different story where you live, Josie, fortunately I don't think that's an issue anymore in most places. Even in NC where I'm from people don't really give it a second glance if they see children or a couple of a mixed race. Actually, in a small town it's possible they still do, but I've lived in a large city in NC for many years and no one seems to care anymore.

[Josie]

I have seen it in a lot of places, big and small, and I think schools are one of the worst places for children.

[Gwen]

ok, after pondering for awhile i do remember a discussion with a man that made the assertian that those that were white and born in the USA were more valiant spirits in the pre existance and thus got a "better" place in this life. that those born carrying the "curse of cain" were less valiant spirits and that was why we should not marry outside of our race or social class, to be equally spiritualy yoked. needless to say it erupted into a huge discussion that didn't necessiarly stay non contentious. though i was not able to sway him much at the time i hope he at least realized that all did not feel that way, it was not chruch doctrine and if he continued to beleive that it was his personal opinion. but he is the only one that i recall comming across that had such extream views.

[Fiannan]

Again, I do not think that racism has anything to do with people not wanting to date outside their race. Perhaps it has to do with wanting to actually maintain diversity -- if everyone just blended together after a few generations then what becomes of ethnic identity?

[sunny_surfer]

I think there is pressure and prejudice on both sides of this issue by many. As far as a white refusing to date a black because of the color of their skin. I am white and would not date someone that was black, because we marry who we date and if I were young, which I am not, and wanted children, I would not want my children rediculed by both races because they were a mixed race and children do catch a great deal of flack over that. This is a prejudice world we live in. Too many times I think we fail to think about the reprocussions of our actions.

isnt that what prejudice is though i mean not dating someone because of the color of there skin? i mean if you had a guy who happened to be a black man but was kind and consideret towards you, and another who was white yet not so kind and considerate towards you, i find it hard to believe you would choose the latter just because it would be easier for you and your kids to hang around white people. I mean i think thats what white people dont get is that, that in itself is prejudice, maybe not to the extant of the KKK but it a more subtle type of prejudice. doesnt anyone else see that?

as for the finnan comment i mean the whole reason for the idiology of north america and the americans in gerneral is that it is a big melting pot where all cultures and colored people are suppose to live as one in harmony with each other. culture will always be there since no one gives up there culture or there ethinicity so i think that argunment is week. move to another country and you will always have culture there no matter what.

[Fiannan]

as for the finnan comment i mean the whole reason for the idiology of north america and the americans in gerneral is that it is a big melting pot where all cultures and colored people are suppose to live as one in harmony with each other. culture will always be there since no one gives up there culture or there ethinicity so i think that argunment is week. move to another country and you will always have culture there no matter what.

I have nothing against all people co-existing together. However, as for the underlying ideology you speak of, what is the origin of it? Is it in the Constitution or was it from quotes of Jefferson, Madison or even Lincoln?

[sunny_surfer]

actually its in the constatution in which all men are created equal and there should be no prejudice based on race color, or religion. its also a little of marti luther king of I have a dream speach and also a little of God in which he stated that this was a choice land in which it would be blessed and that all that come to the americans came with the guidance of heavenly father. To live and see eachother as equals is to become a melting pot so to speak

[Guest funkyfool]

Josie, you seriously would not want to marry someone simply because you wouldnt want bi-racial children? no offense but i think that is a load of crap. There is a large population of black members in my stake and i don't feel that any of them are oppressed. and yes perhaps, the culture and immediate area in which one lives certainly does play a role in this topic. Church members of any ethnicity or background are just as good as any other.

And back to Sunny's question, i think that maybe in some areas, people of color might be slightly looked down upon. It's a fact of life...jsut as previously mentioned. People both inside and out of the church will be racist in some way or another. It's only human to try to make yourself feel better than another class of people. It has been going on all the way back to the time of Moses. probably even farther.

And who says that area's where there are a high population of black members, that they don't look down on the caucasians? I think that the whole subject goes a little bit broader than just whites looking down on blacks. Everyone looks down on eachother ya know? it's sad but still a fact of life.

[TXRed]

I think there is pressure and prejudice on both sides of this issue by many. As far as a white refusing to date a black because of the color of their skin. I am white and would not date someone that was black, because we marry who we date and if I were young, which I am not, and wanted children, I would not want my children rediculed by both races because they were a mixed race and children do catch a great deal of flack over that. This is a prejudice world we live in. Too many times I think we fail to think about the reprocussions of our actions.

People of all races in or out of the church tend to have feelings of "being better than" as you put it or prejudice toward others. I am not saying everyone, but many. That is why the General Authorities spent much of a Conference speaking about the problem and correcting it. If we don't listen to them, we will be held accountable for it.

As far as the curse of the darker skin color, we know that this was a curse inflicted by the Lord for disobedience to his word. It is throughout the scriptures. But, we also know that that curse was lifted as he promised when the Priesthood was restored to all races. I cannot say I am better than any man that walks on this earth. We were all created equal and in God's image. We all have the same opportunity to live his gospel and receive the same Eternal blessings.

Does prejudice exist in the church? Yes! Does it exist out of the Church? Yes! Is it right? NO! Is it acceptable to the Lord? NO! Will we be held accountable for it? YES! Can I say that someone has done wrong because they have married a black, hispanic, oriental, or any other race of people? NO! Does their doing that make me better than them? NO!

You have expressed my feelings quite nicely! Thank you!

Now, let me explain how my feelings have "evolved" over the years.

For one, Sunny Surffer, your question about the "good" man who is black versus the "bad" man who is white. . . . . . . I use to use that particular argument years ago when explaining WHY I would not have a problem with one of my children marrying a black person. However, today, I would tell them to simply find someone other than that "bad" white person. Don't date a "bad" person!!! It doesn't matter what color they are, if they are not "good", you don't want to be involved with them.

Don't date outside of your race. . . . .it causes problems. As Josie said, you marry who you date, and marriage is difficult enough without adding more problems to the mix. Race can be a huge problem. That does not mean that it absolutely can not work ever. But, when you add a racial difference, you have added another potential problem to a marriage. And, believe me, children of mixed races are teased!!! A lady I knew once had a son who was half black. . . . .a gorgeous kid, but her daughters were all from her white husband. The girls were harassed when they walked down the street with their own brother. Yes, it was ridiculous, but it happened.

Plus, many of us say, "I'm marrying the person not his/her family". . . . . well, that's not really true most of the time. You marry "into" a family, which means you have to deal with the prejudices of the extended family. I have family members who have married Hispanics. That doesn't bother me at all, but the problem that I see is when "jokes" are made with racial undertones. ("Let that little Mexican get me a beer!" "Man, what a pepper gut!" "That was a really WHITE gift", etc.) I don't appreciate them, and I see the potential for problems.

My spouse and I are the same race, and yet, we pick on each other way too much without the differences of race. It has caused problems. Our backgrounds are pretty similar, and yet, I have spent 35 years fussing about his leaving the cabinet doors and the drawers open, and he has spent quite a few years fussing about me squeezing the toothpaste in the middle. I have to admit though that I DO NOT squeeze the toothpaste in the middle anymore and have not for years, but he still leaves drawers and doors open. Just goes to show that women can change easier than men. . . . . . . . .. . Okay, fine, the rest of the story . . . . .I buy toothpaste in a push down container. The point is that even with all of the similarities in background, etc., we have still had our share of problems to deal with in our marriage. Adding race or religion to the mix would have just been more to deal with. Maybe we could have done it, but maybe not.

Don't date outside your religion either. I remember just about 26 years ago when I heard some of my husband's family talking about how they would not let their children date outside their religion, and it irritated me so much. (I was a fairly new convert, and I thought it was totally ridiculous to think that you could persuade your children NOT to date people of other religions) I learned quickly that my children were likely to marry the ones they dated, and I started trying to express to them the potential problems with that. For the same reasons as above, dating outside your religion is a problem. It has the potential to cause problems, and once again, the children of "mixed religious" marriages do suffer in numerous ways. Some people believe that this is where the scriptures were talking about being "unequally yoked".

Funky Fool, many people have prejudices. They are not all race related either. I have dealt with people who have "fat" prejudices, religious prejudices, political prejudices, and sexual prejudices. I had a black friend in high school that flat out told me one day that white people THINK they have a corner on the prejudice market. She told me that we were wrong, and that blacks were just as prejudice as whites. Then, she went on to tell me about another black girl that we both knew who was extremely light skinned. When this girl first transferred into the all black school, none of them would talk to her, because they all thought she was white. It was not until they met her parents that this school full of black kids realized that the young girl was simply a light skinned black girl.

I knew growing up that my father was very prejudice. (or; so I thought) It was part of the culture of Mississippi in that era. I desperately wanted to not be prejudice and to not make my children that way; so I worked on it. However, I have seen (as I have gotten older) WHY my father freaked out when I had a black foster child for a week. I have come to understand WHY he was so upset about whites dating outside of their own race. He was older than I was and had seen more things than I had. My idealistic way of looking at things did not last long in this world. The older I get, and the more things I see, the more I realize that what I conceived to be my father's prejudice was not truly prejudice against black people. . . . . .it was prejudice against what he knew would be hurtful. He did not want me to experience some of the awful prejudices that he had observed himself.

I believe that everyone has prejudices of some kind at various times in their lives. It is simply a prejudgment or preconception about something we don't understand or know about. It can be a normal human response to something unfamiliar. The problem is when we allow a prejudgment to become a "concrete" idea that can not be changed when it could and should be. When we hang on tight to that prejudgment and use it to be hurtful or ugly to someone, we are being prejudice.

Having a prejudgment or preconception about something unfamiliar to us is not necessarily bad, it is what we "DO" with that notion that can be bad. If we would all truly practice the Golden Rule and do unto others as we would have them do unto us, we would all be a lot happier. Unfortunately, the world just does not work that way.

Sometimes, no matter what you do, you wind up married to the wrong person. I had one son in law that was the same religion and the same race, but he did not share the same beliefs or goals. The marriage lasted seven years. I got two wonderful grandkids out of the deal. They and their mother are, and will probably always, continue to pay for the "differences" in that marriage.

What I told my children (and which several of them chose to ignore) was:

Choose wisely

Date within your religion

Date within your race

Date under lots of circumstances: lots of different activities and with various people and places . . . . see how they behave in different places, times, and with different people

Find out just how much you really have in common and go for the one that you have the most in common with.

Date long enough to be sure that you REALLY know what type of person you are dating

Don't date just one person. . . . make a habit of going out with a different person every other date

Date to have fun not to get serious

Set your goals and stick with them . . . . if you want to marry in the Temple. . . don't settle for less.

Now, if I had looked at my list above 30 years ago, I would have accused myself of being extremely prejudice in many ways. At this time, I don't consider myself prejudiced. . . . . . I consider myself a mom who wants desperately for her children to have the best chance at a good marriage, and I want them to eliminate all the potentially negative things that they possibly can eliminate.

However, in the end, I don't have a say so about who my children marry. . . . . . I raised them to make decisions for themselves. I pray constantly that they make the right decisions for them and the ones the Lord would have them make.

Back to the original question, I do not believe that I am better than anyone else regardless of color. I am one of Heavenly Father's children, and so are other people. I do not love any of my children more than the others; so I expect that Heavenly Father loves us equally. I do get mad at some of my kids for their behaviors, and I have punished some of them; so that makes sense to me that Heavenly Father would, too. I have rewarded some children for certain good behavior, and it makes sense that Heavenly Father would, too.

I agree with Josie. . . . .YES, there is prejudice in the Church, the world, people in general, and it is wrong. I have seen various degrees of it both in and outside of the Church.

If the people who are in the Church were perfect, they would have been translated already. My father made the comment to me "all Churches are full of hypocrites" when I was investigating the Church. He was not against the LDS Church. . . . .he had some bad experiences years before with religious leaders, and he was not too keen on any church at that time. My response to him, which I still believe is true today, was, "What better place for them?"

Peace to all,

TXRed

[Fiannan]

Don't date outside of your race. . . . .it causes problems. As Josie said, you marry who you date, and marriage is difficult enough without adding more problems to the mix. Race can be a huge problem. That does not mean that it absolutely can not work ever. But, when you add a racial difference, you have added another potential problem to a marriage. And, believe me, children of mixed races are teased!!! A lady I knew once had a son who was half black. . . . .a gorgeous kid, but her daughters were all from her white husband. The girls were harassed when they walked down the street with their own brother. Yes, it was ridiculous, but it happened.

Yes, I believe that dating outside your race can be quite problematic. While I am of the same general race as my wife (I am Irish, Scandinavian, Cherokee) I am American and she is Swedish. Have problems come up due to cultural differences? Absolutely. These are not impossible to overcome but I can imagine that throwing in racial differences would make matters much more complicated.

While she is an idealist and says that as long as one is a member of the Church then differences in race should not matter I have taught our children that dating outside of one's racial background should be avoided -- not because the people are of less value, but because of many of the factors TXRed brings up.

I do know a LDS couple in which the man is from Britain and of Jamaican background (a relative of Colin Powell so more a mulatto) and his wife is Swedish. They married and tried living in England but because of the abuse thier kids were subjected to they had to move to her country of Sweden -- things aren't ideal but people tend to be nicer to their kids. I knew another couple in which the father was white and the mother was of a darker Hispanic heritage. They lived in Washinton state but moved to Utah in part because their children were teased and beat up by Hispanic kids because their father was white. I also had a professor who grew up on a Lakota reservation. His father was white and his mother pure Indian but while all his brothers and sisters were dark he was born with blond hair and very pale skin -- he kinda resembled Chuck Norris who is also half Indian. I guess he got used as a bunching bag quite a bit growing up from what he said.

In the Hispanic community one's skin color, facial characteristics and in the past hair density could indicate what your ancestory was and in turn your social status (most Hispanics call themselves white on census reports but much of that has to do with socio-economic status rather than true race. Many whith just a little bit of Spanish blood still identify with white as whites and Mestizos are on a higher caste level than Indians or blacks in Latin culture). In the black community one can also see differences in how people are looked upon based on how light or dark they are. How often do you see a pure black female model even in black publications? Mulatto seems to be preferred over pure black. However, in the past there were divisions as lighter blacks were generally associated with being given preferrence in the slave days because they were often of mixed blood between white owners and black females. The children of these unions were still slaves but generally the fathers, uncles, etc. gave them overseer jobs, blacksmith positions, house servant jobs etc. which aroused contempt with the black fieldworkers. And finally, in the past the Cherokee would allow a person to marry a white person and keep their tribal status (along with their children) but if a Cherokee married a black they lost their tribal affiliation.

As much as we might not like it race, ethnicity and color does have an impact on how we view ourselves and those around us. And there is not one country on earth where that is not the case.

[sunny_surfer]

Although i would like to say that Finnan is completely wrong on that subject i cant do so since there is some truth in it. As a hispanic latino myself where my mother is from spain and my father is mezo or native indian, this is true. In social classes white are always seen as better and i think its frankly sick that so many people who are white try and be white when background wise they arent white, just look it. I mean to say that racism and prejudice does not exist inside the church is to be in denial but that does not excuse refusing to date someone just because of fear that mockery might arise. Im just reminded of what MArtin luther KIng jr said " THe judge of a persons character is not what he does in times of contravery but what he does in times of calm" If we were all afraid of doing something because of fear of what others thought then we are no better then the ones who are doing the mocking. frankly it makes me sick still to know that society still makes out the fact that if your not white, and clear skinned then somehow you arent beautiful that someone being white means your more beautiful. NOw i had to put up with alot of **** over the years but i have also gotten into a lot of fights when someone has said something prejudice or ignorant to either me or the people i know. but if you do nothing about it or in contributing to change the problem then u are part of the problem

[BenRaines]

sunny surfer, So that I understand clearly your solution to prejudice comments or statements is to fight someone? Does that not support the stereotype?

I am as white as you can get with some indian heritage. I do tan nicely though. I speak spanish as well as most others without an accent. My wife is Puerto Rican. She is lighter than I am but speaks with an accent and I am not talking Wisconsin but Puerto Rico. Being from different countries was not a problem over the last 30+ years but the cultural difference has brought its challenges.

We have raised four children who are proud of their Puerto Rican heritage. They have grown up in the LDS church, two served missions, they have wored to enlighten others against prejudice. One served in South Africa and the other in the Dominican Republic.

Neither one has ever been in a fight because they were Puerto Rican.

Does prejudice exist? Yes. Do we have to be a part of it? No. We can only do our part. There always have been and there always will be ignorant people, of all races.

Ben Raines

[sunny_surfer]

well im not saying we should fist fight every son of a gun who says some prejudice remarks i was just saying i have. but you should definatly speak out or do something if you see it occure

[BenRaines]

I have and do. My son has stepped in an stopped fights just because the kid was Mexican he was being beaten up.

Again prejudice is wrong. We should do all we can to stop it. What I am saying is physical altercation only cements or confirms prejudice it does not educate or do away with it.

I will admit that when I was a police officer and still some to this day that I profile people. If they look like white trash, gangbangers, wanna be gangstas I am more alert than I am in my lilly white neighborhood.

I call that being informed and cautious and not naive. Others will all it prejudice.

Ben Raines

[sunny_surfer]

see but thats my point if your son had to stop guys from beating up a mexican chances are its because he looked mexican meaning he was darker skin. those who are latino and look white dont really have to deal with that cause they are never targeted like the ones who are darker are, even those who are white latinos consider themselfs more white then latino

[BenRaines]

Not sure I understand the point. My son is proud of his Puerto Rican heritage and he actually looks middle eastern. My kids and I tan very easily and they all have dark hair and brown eyes. Guess it depends on where you live. Since we have lived, worked and attended church in predominatly multi-cultural neighborhoods. Attended spanish language branches, lived overseas, where we were a minority. A very minor minority perhaps we have less prejudice than many others.

I have seen many types of prejudice and I am not talking white vs black or brown vs white but black, from other countries vs those from the Philippines. Blacks from Jamaica vs Hondurans and the list goes on. This is not about white vs brown or black but all kinds of prejudice.

There were 500% more blacks traded in to slavery in Brazil than there were in to the US. Where is the outcry of the blacks sold in to slavery in Brazil. None they just intermingled and are now Brazilians.

I am sure sunny_surfer you have been sharing your own experiences with prejudice and that they are real. They are all over the world and we can only do our part, hopefully no violently, to stop it as much as possible.

Not like the Sunnis and Shiites or the Catholics and Protestants.

Ben Raines

[Princess3dward]

<div class='quotemain'>

Okay.. I am a convert.. and slightly confused.. Could you point me in the direction of that paragraph?? then I will develop 2 cents!

we're talking about the paragraph in 2Nephi 5:21.

although no one has answered my question i mean the general authorities say a lot of things that members of the church dont always fallow or think. My question i will refrase again is if anyone has witnessed anyone think they are somehow favored because of the color of there skin being white? ex. only dating white guys. or having someone say a slight comment that doesnt seem overly prejudice but slightly is. I mean has anyone read about the Book...being Black and mormon, about a BYU professor who had to endure comment from other members who constantly reminded him how he was somehow cursed based on the color of his skin. Not to mention that BYU im not sure if this is true but my understanding is they still teach this in there seminar classes. So i fail to see how there are not members out there who would have slight prejudice favor towards themselves being of a white desend. Just thoughts since i have no doubt there are some members who think like this

You sould like you wont be happy unless there are prejudice people.

You just said you KNEW there had to be cases.

If you really feel that way, why don't you ask:

"How can we encourage people to not apply the curse to people today?"

Or something to that effect.