Moroni In Iraq?

[CrimsonKairos]

God approves of America's actions in Iraq. The term "innocent" is so subjective. Since you view Saddam's decades of flaunting U.N. resolutions as no reason to go into Iraq, I can only imagine what your definition of "innocence" is. There will always be collateral damage in wars...friendly fire, misinformation, incorrect targets, innocents killed. Does that make the reason for going to war null and void?

I think not.

[Outshined]

We have to stop feeding the trolls; especially the left-wing conspiracy nut trolls. I think Ajax has come here to be comic relief but he/she is stinking up some good threads with this baseless idiocy about Bush and Iraq.

There are always going to be people who are clueless about Iraq, but want to make noise about it anyway. You can't reason with people who don't know what they're talking about and don't want to know; Ajax is one of those.

I move to ignore the troll and continue more intelligent recourse.

[CrimsonKairos]

Agreed. By the way, I ordered that book by Gen. Sada (I think that's right) that you mentioned. I look forward to reading it and gaining insights from within the lion's den, as it were.

[Outshined]

It's an excellent book; you'll enjoy it. General Sada tells how they flew 56 commercial airliners full of chemical weapons out of Iraq to Syria in late 2002, among other things.

I just got another in a similar vein: The Bomb in My Backyard, by Mahdi Obeidi, Saddam's nuclear programs director. The title comes from the fact that he had a working prototype for a uranium-enrichment centrifuge buried in his back yard to hide it from the UN. He turned it over to the US after the invasion in 2003. Looks like an interesting book.

[CrimsonKairos]

I'm snagging that book too from Amazon tonight. Thanks for the suggestion, I remember hearing that Saddam's nuclear program director was writing a book but lost track of the progress.

[Guest Ajax]

God approves of America's actions in Iraq. The term "innocent" is so subjective. Since you view Saddam's decades of flaunting U.N. resolutions as no reason to go into Iraq, I can only imagine what your definition of "innocence" is. There will always be collateral damage in wars...friendly fire, misinformation, incorrect targets, innocents killed. Does that make the reason for going to war null and void?

I think not.

I know you are just trying to support outshined. Too bad because he is dead dead wrong.

[Outshined]

I'm snagging that book too from Amazon tonight. Thanks for the suggestion, I remember hearing that Saddam's nuclear program director was writing a book but lost track of the progress.

I hope it's as good as Sada's book; it's interesting to hear from the people who were actually part of the government and can relate what was going on behind the scenes.

[boyando]

We have to stop feeding the trolls; especially the left-wing conspiracy nut trolls. I think Ajax has come here to be comic relief but he/she is stinking up some good threads with this baseless idiocy about Bush and Iraq.

There are always going to be people who are clueless about Iraq, but want to make noise about it anyway. You can't reason with people who don't know what they're talking about and don't want to know; Ajax is one of those.

I move to ignore the troll and continue more intelligent recourse.

You are so right. It is so easy to think that if they are fed common sense, they will go away, full. Instead like little pigs, feed on the attention and the need to feel they have not gone down the wrong path.

You ask me, it takes a lot of work to convince yourself that Iraq was never a threat to us.

Thanks again for all that you do and give our thanks to your fellow soldiers - allmosthumble

[Theodore]

I often wonder how scriptural figures would act if injected into current events.

How do you all think Captain Moroni would act if he were an army general in charge of Iraqi operations? I have my own opinions, but what do you guys think, and would you agree with his tactics (based on his performance in the Book of Mormon)?

Excellent question. Obviously unknowable, but I suspect (hope?) that he would put the Iraq campaign on hold while he came back and cleaned up the government as he threatened to do to Pahoran in Alma 60.

[Nate]

Good point, I think maybe we should of thought about that from the getgo.

[Adomini22]

Guys come on. Ajax just has repressed attention deficit tendencies. Poor guy.......... ha ha ha. Back to the original post. Would Moroni go to the war in Iraq? I am not sure. If they attacked us, of course. But I dont know if our country followed the "go to war" guidelines the Lord set for us in D&C. Good question. We need people like Moroni nowadays. Alma 48 says IF all men had been, and were, and forever would be like unto Moroni, the very jaws of hell would have no power over us and the gates of hell would have been shaken forever. It says something to that affect in verse 12 and 13, I think. (I dont have my scriptures with me right now.)

[Guest Amitunai]

I miss my Class A's......

CIB, Blue Boy, Ranger, Air Assualt, Airborne, Halo....... I want my JUMP boots back!

[CrimsonKairos]

What are Class A's?

[Nate]

Army dress uniform. Usually on FOX or CNN if you see some sort of Army GEN and he has all those ribbons on a green uniform thoes are class A's.

Adomini, thats quite a tab rack. What unit, mos, station?

[Guest Amitunai]

11B, 3rd Ranger, Ft. Benning GA

[Shade]

there's an old saying that goes, "the only ones who profit from a war are the ones who are selling the guns."

so, this was supposed to be about Moroni?

lemmesee, now. don't remember much about his story - been inactive for some time now - but i would hazard a wild guess that he would be fighting for liberty, equality, righteousness, defending the opressed, upholding morality and eradicating evil.

so what's the war about anyway? i'm in south africa. the media tells/sells several different stories. guess this depends on the political stance of the media owners. some agree with ajax. some agree with outshined. some don't agree with any of you guys. some say that if there was no oil-territory to be fought over, there would be no war, anyway.

so the current regime is fighting for liberation from the oppressors? strange that i don't see any US military liberating the poor buggers who are busy dying in Zimbabwe. ok, maybe not so strange... they have no oil. or am i completely off the mark?

what are wars "traditionally" fought over anyway? territory, money and riches, power, control, liberation, fear? perhaps all of the above? the black and coloured peoples of my own nation suffered terribly under the fist of apaartheid for decades. the most any other nation ever did was to impose sanctions. during the period of sanctions against south africa, our economy and our currency was at its strongest ever. 1 Rand (our currency), at the height of the apaartheid era, was selling for £2 or US$3. i do not believe a general such as Moroni would have allowed a nation to be persecuted because of the colour of their skin.

it would be interesting to hear why the US regime has not seen fit to liberate all of the other oppressed of the world... i guess this, too, begs the question, "what would Moroni do?"

realistically speaking, i believe that general Moroni would first look to your own nation and begin with a little house-cleaning.

clean up such issues and problems such as lawlessness, prostitution, homelessness and poverty, hunger, education, abortion, the flaws in american constitution, corruption, pornography, drug and alcohol abuse, child abuse, etc...

"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chronicles 7:14

how do we heal the world? start with a little house-cleaning!

[CrimsonKairos]

Flaws with the constitution? Which of the seven articles needs revising?

I'm unfamiliar with the details of the situation in Zimbabwe. What exactly is going on? A tyrant killing his citizens? Militia's battling it out?

[Shade]

i am not as familiar with exact content of the US constitution as i am with my own, but - like my country's constitution - it is man-made and fallible. the laws change all the time. south africa (probably) has the most liberal constitution in the world, right now. read together with what the scriptures teach, our constitution is horrifically flawed. how does the law of the US compare to what your scriptures teach you?

as for Zimbabwe... EVERYONE knew about Zimbabwe when it was still called Rhodesia and was under the oppressive heel of the racist, fascist white "British" ruling party. now, nobody even remembers where the country is, let alone the attrocities taking place there. Mugabe, the dictator currently running the show over there, has pillaged and plundered all the good stuff already, leaving nothing for places like UK or US to concern themselves over. funny how, just 3 decades after losing control over the nation, UK is no longer prepared to do anything to help them.

google it: Z-I-M-B-A-B-W-E skip past all the "pretty tourist destination" sites.

...but anyway... that's totally off the topic. apologies!!

[boyando]

I find it amazing what short memories, we all have.

I'm not talking just about what happened on 9/11, but all through the middle east. For years now, many countries, including Iraq, have declared war with the US and many other countries that do not fallow Islam. They see us as morally corrupt (and to some extent, they are right) and believe that the world should convert or die.

I do not know any one who wants war. I'm sure that there are people who do, but I have never had some one tell me that they wanted to see war, for profit or any other reason, including President Bush.

We must win this war with Iraq. If we don't, we will see more and more suicide bombers in our country.

We had every right to go into Iraq, when Iraq did not live up to there end of the treaty from the first gulf war.

And yes oil does play a role in this. Oil equals money, to fund those who have polluted Islam.

I am not perfect. Please forgive me my weakness, in writing my thoughts. But I can not see how captain Moroni would not be defending this country, by going were he was asked to go.

Freedom has it's price and we should be honoring those, like Outshined, and others who paying that price for us. Instead we decide to turn our heads and believe that if we ignore those who would do us harm, they will some how like us.

Agree, but still your brother in Christ (I know I need to work on my anger) allmosthumble

[Shade]

i thought the people of iraq wanted peace? i'm sure someone was arguing this point before? oh, right, it was Outshined, i just looked back a few ages. and i can't say i disagree. i'm sure the people wish for peace. i thought it was just saddam who was the warmonger? and not the entire nation?

there is a thread running along on another post about the "evil muslims" and how they ALL want war. which is so totally not true. most of them are peace-loving people. most people, regardless of race, colour or creed would choose peace over war - GIVEN THE CHOICE...

and while i must also agree with outshined, that poor ol bush has a nasty job to do and i would not want to be in his shoes... i do believe that i would like it very much less to be in the shoes of the people getting bombed in the middle east.

as for your 9-11 incident? it was a truly sad and tragic day. but can i tell you a secret? more people are murdered in my country each year than died in that attack. WAY more. serveral times more. in 2001 (the most recent stats i can find right now with a quick google search) there were 598,419 violent crimes reported in south africa. obviously, that excludes those NOT reported. if you don't believe me about the murders and would like to dispute my claim go and google the facts for yourself. what i can tell you - it was in excess of 15,000 for the period 2005-2006, or in excess of 39 per 100,000 people for that period.

but, in the same way that the 9-11 attack was perpetrated by - not an entire nation - a militant faction, the murders in my own country are perpetrated by INDIVIDUALS. is it a solution to start bombing entire suburbs where sightings of suspected murderers have been reported?

surely you might agree with me that such a notion would be nothing short of criminally insane!

as for the right to defend one's freedom, beliefs and ideals: i believe this is a basic human right. just don't be overly surprised if the "bad guys" feel the same way about it though...

[Outshined]

i thought the people of iraq wanted peace? i'm sure someone was arguing this point before? oh, right, it was Outshined, i just looked back a few ages. and i can't say i disagree. i'm sure the people wish for peace. i thought it was just saddam who was the warmonger? and not the entire nation?

Without a doubt. The Iraqis want peace, and to hold onto the freedom they've gained through Saddam's fall. A large segment of the population lacked even basic freedoms like that of religious choice and free speech. They've had their first free elections in three decades, and I'm sure most of them want to settle into their new life without all the fighting. The problem is outside forces who want to keep the area unstable and direct the government their way.

As you said, anyone with the choice will always want peace for the sake of their country and their children. Parts of Iraq are almost tranquil right now, but the ones who make it to the news are the ones with problems.

[jonathan.plumb]

This is an interesting thread. I'm new to these forums and was browsing around and this definitely stuck out, seeing as I'm currently deployed rolling into my 9th month in Baghdad. ( Army C co 5-20 Infantry ~ 11C Infantry Mortarman .... not a Marine, but no disrespect either way, everyone does a job over here ).

First off, in defense of Pres. Bush. He really has no say of what's going on over here. Invade and Surge are the only things he's done/doing. Everything else has been the Generals over here or there, so lay off the man, he's doing the best he can with what he can. If you haven't followed the news much, Congress and what-not has rejected nearly every plan Bush has laid out. He finally set his foot down with this surge plan, even though Congress said No again. If you haven't been here, you wouldn't understand. Stop trying, because you can't. The news can only report certain things. They're under contracts to only report certain things. If they report what they're not supposed to, they are banned from our units. It's how it works....it's how it's always worked. So there's no way someone in the states can understand what's going on unless you step foot over here. Plus....Pres. Bush has a great sense of humor! Have you seen anyone else able to throw out jokes while under stress and pressure? Maybe, but not in a position like his!

Anyways, back to the topic. Moroni would definately not be a General. If you look at it, Moroni didn't command ALL of the Armies. He only commanded HIS part of the Army. I'd place him more at Colonel level, in charge of a Brigade, in today's Army. Maybe we could give him a little more credit and compare overall sizes of military and say "Okay" and throw him as a 1 or 2 star General in charge of a whole Division, but that's probably pushing it. The reason I say Brigade Commander in today's Army is because Brigade Commanders still get front-line action, probably equivalent to what Moroni got. He wasn't always front-line....he had to stand back and command at times (assumptions in mind....we don't have enough details about his command to know for sure), yet he also was able at other times to be front-line and get his hands dirty. He would be high enough in the chain-of-command to get respect wherever he went, whether respect of person or respect of rank. If he said something, everyone listened intently. I'd imagine he always would wear a smile, or as often as possible, has a warm feeling when he was around, like you knew he'd protect you with all his means. Lower ranking soldiers would often aspire to be like him, maybe even adopting (AKA stealing) certain catch-phrases or gestures he did around others. I could see him carrying an M4, like the men below him. He wouldn't have anything fancy or expensive on it, just the basics. Maybe an M68 sight and a PEQ4 infrared laser (which is real basic if you know much about military weapons now-a-days). This would be to show he placed himself at soldier level, to boost soldier morale in a subtle, unnoticed way. I don't even imagine him having an M9 pistol, because usually people who have M9s are the lazier ones that don't want to lug around a rifle around the base and what-not (Snipers and Heavy gunners excluded....since their weapon systems are too exotic to not have a smaller weapon for defense). His armor would be what was issued to everyone else. I also could see him very often walking around greeting people. More often than not, by himself (or with a battle-buddy~). Outside the wire, he'd be very quick in judgment. His attention to details would save people over and over. The spirit would guide him and his men to safety over and over. His men would be able to tell countless stories about near-death experiences and the miracles of being alive. Some wouldn't be able to link that it was their Commander who protected them, while others would easily notice the power of the spirit around him. I could probably go on for a while, but I'm sure you all get the picture. That's at least the type of person I'd see Moroni as in Iraq today.

I'd love to hear others views on how they would see Moroni today. Stop Bush-bashing, it serves no purpose and doesn't end the war any sooner. If you're mad at him for some reason, just realize there's nothing you can do about it and being mad is only wrecking your day and nobody else's. Having an opinion is one thing, everyone is entitled to, but don't talk like you know everything about a situation and try to persuade others to negative feelings, it's not helping anyone stay alive, and believe me, staying alive is one of my highest priorities right now.~

[Outshined]

Keep your head down, Jonathan. I'm heading back over in late May/early June for my third deployment. In a way I dread it, and in a way I can't wait to get back there...it's weird.

[jonathan.plumb]

So....after reading page 1 and then replying...I noticed that my reply went on page 4. Doh...didn't realize there was more than 1 page. I guess the Bush bashing stopped....so sorry about that.

Anywho....here's a front-line trace from Iraq, for those who don't know what's going on:

The war is over. It's been over for years. There are about the same amount of people targeting American Forces in Iraq as there would be in any country we go to. Here's the problem:

We're trying to intervene in a civil war. We're trying to be Iraq's "Police Officers" instead of properly training the Iraqi Police to do it themselves. You have the Shiites and Sunnis fighting for control, and we happen to get in the middle, a little too often. That's where all the US casualties are coming from. Very very few are caused by attacks targeted at US troops. Now yes, there IS still a few groups here targeting US troops, but in my 8 months being here, moving into my 9th now, I've seen 1 organized attack against US forces. That's not a whole lot if you ask me, but I dunno.

Everyone of course has their own opinion. This one is mine. Maybe I'm not seeing the bigger picture since I'm not a Brigade or Division commander, but that's what it looks like from my level.

So back to Moroni. What would he do now? What would he do if he saw the war was over and we were still here? Do you think he would push to pull out? Do you think he would just stop caring because he's frustrated with all the BS that goes on? The answer is simple....NO.

Moroni would be here because his Commander in Chief says the job is not done and he needs to be here. Moroni would push forward every day doing mission after mission to accomplish the goals set out for him. He wouldn't give up, he wouldn't rip on the President if he thought it was all in vain. Now there is definitely a line there. Moroni probably would not follow any order that violated his beliefs taught to him by his Fathers and God. He would definitely be a man of high morals and standards who followed the rules. I can't say exactly what he would say if he DID disagree with an order, but I'll leave that for you all to imagine.

So I, as would Moroni, am here simply because I have been commanded to be here. The job is not done. I'll continue to do my mission every day to the fullest, because there's a job to be done, and the sooner it gets done, the sooner I get to go home and see my wife and kids.

BTW Outshined. I was supposed to be turning over our battle space on June 11th....but the word just came down to expect to be extended for 3-6 months. Nothing official yet, but I'm planning on being here a bit longer, so if you come to Baghdad (FOB Falcon) I might see you around~

[Nate]

3rd Stryker Bgd just had there july date pushed back to Nov/Dec. 4th Stryker BGD is now being pushed up 3 months and you will be seeing them in about 2 months. SO instead of 4th replacing 3rd they are teaming up cause of Bush's new stratagy. The numbers are being pushed in but hopefully not at the sanity of the soldiers expence.