Moroni In Iraq?

[Shade]

Moroni would definately not be a General.

wasn't he actually a captain in the nephite army?

I could see him carrying an M4, like the men below him. He wouldn't have anything fancy or expensive on it, just the basics. Maybe an M68 sight and a PEQ4 infrared laser (which is real basic if you know much about military weapons now-a-days).

ooooh. i want one with laser sights. or a light saber...

Johnathan: don't get yer skinny butt shot off. your family needs your skinny butt!

[CrimsonKairos]

Jonathan: Stirring words, my friend. Thanks for your service and steadfastness.

Outshine: You know how I feel bro, you're awesome. Knowing there are people like you and Jonathan over there puts to rest the hollow lies created by the news media.

I am proud of our armed forces. My dad was a fighter pilot in the Air Force, eventually squadron commander of the 5th ASOS before he retired. I know the Air Force is kinda' the joke of the Army and Marines (well, maybe until the A-10 warthogs mulch a couple of bothersome enemy tanks), but as my dad said at his change-of-command: "Hooah!"

[jonathan.plumb]

3rd Stryker Bgd just had there july date pushed back to Nov/Dec. 4th Stryker BGD is now being pushed up 3 months and you will be seeing them in about 2 months. SO instead of 4th replacing 3rd they are teaming up cause of Bush's new stratagy. The numbers are being pushed in but hopefully not at the sanity of the soldiers expence.

Well, this is just the "plan" which we all know changes on nearly a daily basis. It's what I expect to happen, but until our orders are actually cut, we're still leaving theater in June. Though I've already told my wife to expect to be extended.

I know the Air Force is kinda' the joke of the Army and Marines (well, maybe until the A-10 warthogs mulch a couple of bothersome enemy tanks), but as my dad said at his change-of-command: "Hooah!"

People over here make Air Force jokes until they see a 2000lb JDAM drop.....then as they're changing their underwear they realize that was one of the coolest things they've seen.

I recently looked into moving to the Air Force, after hearing rumor they were recruiting from the Infantry. However I found that to be false....so guess I'm stuck with the Army for a while longer.

wasn't he actually a captain in the nephite army?

You're right. Well according to the Book of Mormon he was the Captain of "The" Nephite Army. So who knows exactly how the whole thing was set up back then, but that could, I guess, be equivalent to the General of the Army nowadays, however I've never thought it to be such. We also don't know about the rank structure of the Army back then. Captain could have been as high as you get, or it could have been similar to today's rank structure. Who knows? Our Army's rank structure today is based off the European rank structure, so it's unlikely the early Native American's had the same structure, after running themselves for roughly a thousand years away from the Eastern continent.

[CrimsonKairos]

People over here make Air Force jokes until they see a 2000lb JDAM drop.....then as they're changing their underwear they realize that was one of the coolest things they've seen.

You have a great way of phrasing things. :) Classic.

[m24az]

I love when people justify the Iraqi war as a just cause.

As you say lets give Iraq freedom you are saying lets build a wall around mexico, and ps good luck.

The beliefs that specific parties put forth are absurd.

I lived in egypt, I know arabs, I know muslims.

Bush made a mistake and didnt have an exit strategy.

We STILL havent caught Osama Bin Laden.

moroni wouldnt be in Iraq.

He would have captured Osama, then he would have said, respect our liberty, our religion, and our families.

if Osama said "ok" then Moroni would have hugged him, and said welcome to the truth my brother.

If Osama said "no" then Moroni would have said "we will end the conflict'

blindly following the republican party is absurd.

follow right and wrong.

Want to vote wisely... pray for this ticket in 2008

President - Al Gore - Democrat

Vice President - Mitt Romney - Republican

[CrimsonKairos]

Hahahahaha...oh wait...he was serious wasn't he?

[m24az]

If the “he wasn’t serious” comment was about my post...

Yeah, completely… except the president comment.

That part was a joke

[Outshined]

I love when people justify the Iraqi war as a just cause.

Here it's mostly the people who have actually been there and know what's going on... It's absolutely a just cause.

They aren't saying "build a wall around Mexico"; they are saying get control of illegal immigration; big difference.

And Moroni would be where his commander told him to be, as all good soldiers are.

As for your dream ticket; sure, I'd vote for Romney, but never Gore...

[jonathan.plumb]

I love when people justify the Iraqi war as a just cause.

He would have captured Osama, then he would have said, respect our liberty, our religion, and our families.

if Osama said "ok" then Moroni would have hugged him, and said welcome to the truth my brother.

If Osama said "no" then Moroni would have said "we will end the conflict'

First off, justifying Iraq. I'm not here to fight for Iraq. I'm here to fight because I was ordered to come here. Now, what's the point of just coming, doing my time, and leaving. I might as well do all I can to make this place a better place while I'm required to be here anyways.

No, I don't fully agree with the war. Now, it brings a different perspective when you're actually over here. Who cares about the insurgents or Osama. When you see the people here and how badly they need help, you'll have a change of heart. So my goal while I'm over here is to do all I can to make Iraq a better place for its people.

Now on to the Moroni comment. I'd entirely disagree. Just as Nephi had to make a decision when commanded to slay Laban, Moroni would have to make his own decision based on the commands from the President on whether he would slay Osama or not. In this case, I'd have to assume Moroni would be able to see the poverty and destruction caused by the lead of this single man, and would not hesitate to kill him. I, myself, will not hesitate to kill him if I find him. There are of course always things that will change that, like as if Osama is surrendering or what-not, then let the courts deal with him. Moroni was definately a person who is firm in following commands. That is why Moroni will be the Angel that flies through the heavens to announce Christ's second coming, and why Moroni will undoubtedly be one of the highest in the chain of command in the war against Satan.

~

[john doe]

Not to pick nits as I agree with a lot of what you said, but I think you're confusing the two Moronis. Or I could be wrong on that count.

Going around and saying that we shouldn't be in Iraq so now we should just leave, is naive to say the least. The question is, what do we do now that we are there? There must be some way we can extricate ourselves without having the country implode on itself. I don't think that just setting a sunset date and sticking to it will do anything more than make the bad guys go underground until we leave. And then when we leave, if there is no infrastructure in place to control the insurgents, the place will collapse.

As for South Africa, I think you pointed out your own inconsistencies. I think that people from countries who can't make or keep the peace in their own country don't reallty have any moral standing to tell the US to do anything. You would be best served cleaning up your own back yard before pointing out how we made a mistake trying to clean up our mess.

[jonathan.plumb]

Going around and saying that we shouldn't be in Iraq so now we should just leave, is naive to say the least. The question is, what do we do now that we are there? There must be some way we can extricate ourselves without having the country implode on itself. I don't think that just setting a sunset date and sticking to it will do anything more than make the bad guys go underground until we leave. And then when we leave, if there is no infrastructure in place to control the insurgents, the place will collapse.

I'm not psychic or anything, but I believe the infrastructure of Iraq is going to undergo a drastic change when we pull out no matter if we pull out tomorrow or in 10 years. I would say that once we get out, they'll want to re-do everything to how they want it, with no influence from Coalition forces.

For example, our whole goal is to turn the area over to the Iraqi people so we can leave. However, just recently when presented with an OUTSTANDING idea by one of the National Police commanders, our chain of command shot it down and said they wouldn't let the police do it. Now, I won't go into more details than that, however I will state that this is absolutely not what our goal is here. A person can only learn from his own mistakes. I know in an ideal world a person learns from others mistakes, but this is the real world, and face it....we usually only learn for ourselves how hot the oven is when we put our own hand on it. So it all boils down to the simple fact that: no matter how many times we reject plans and what-not for even the best of reasons, as soon as we pull out they're going to need to learn everything for themselves and the entire country will go through a giant change again, and I'd assume another civil war more bloody than the one we're in now.

[m24az]

Moroni would do what he always did... that’s all I was saying. He never killed someone that was repentant... even after they had committed atrocities. I wasn’t saying I could do that. If I met Osama, I would have a hard time not killing him. That’s why he was so amazing.

My comment was about Moroni.

Moroni was also the main general in the army and he took control of it many times in the Book of Mormon… it wasn’t a matter of just going and doing. I don’t think he would be in Iraq.

Now that we are in Iraq, I agree, no matter what we do, it’s going to have a huge infrastructure change. I like Biden’s ideas about creating three territories that work separately but still operate in the interest in the whole.

Who knows though? I don’t have an exit strategy, that’s why I am not President.

Much respect to anyone over there though.

If I were at war I think I would read the war chapters constantly... go Teancum on people, then I would die...

[boyando]

Good thoughts, all (you may have noticed that I have calmed down a little).

I don't enjoy being angry, any more. Anger is some thing that I need to repent of, constantly. I also some times mistake my anger for passion. I think that we all need to keep our passion but lose those things that are making us divided on this subject.

Here is a thought that I'm sure many can verbally destroy. I would that you would think before you go on the attack, because many lives are at stake.

These extreme Muslims, have told us over and over again, that there desire is not peace, but to conquer and convert or kill the entire world. Why do we not take them at there own word?

Civil war may come, but I think that it would be in our best interest to make sure that those who are not the extreme type, lose in that civil war.

What we do know is that our civil war, made us stringer as a nation. But not in the beginning of that war or anytime just after. It took about twenty years after general Lee signed, before people stopped shooting at each other.

I have great faith that we can win this war and live in peace. But not if we ignore the threats that are coming out of the middle east or pretend that we just need more diplomacy. We have been trying to keep that part of the world, calm for a long time, by talks after talks. The results are the same.

I will issue a challenge to everyone who thinks that we can talk our way into peace. Give any example, any were in the world, were a country has talked another country into lasting peace (say 10 years or more), with out going to war first, and of coarse winning that war.

I look forward to some examples - allmosthumble

[Outshined]

I like Biden’s ideas about creating three territories that work separately but still operate in the interest in the whole.

That wasn't really his idea; that's how Iraq was structured before Saddam took over. They had tribal states governed centrally.

[m24az]

I know it wasnt his idea... A lot of things are crazy about Iraq. I just think Biden's idea that he is proposing is the most logical and I havent really seen or read anything else that makes sense to me.

Before Saddam took over the Bath Party was the central governing body. Not religious group.

Funny how things change.

The next part of my post is directed at allmosthumble.

The idea bugged me enough, that I think I am now dumber.

Name a country that has talked another country into peace.

Wow that is painful.

We spurred this civil war. Iraq will not be at peace. America isnt at peace. We have horrible stats in regards to education, job security, new growth areas within the economy, crime, health care, and now because of the actions of our President, we now have a growing threat from people we use to consider and hold true as allies.

WHAT IS PEACE??? Killing other people because you think they might attack isnt peace, its global tyranny.

just a painful statement. the sentiment being kill them all, cause they are a threat??? Thats not an LDS thought, thats an extremist muslim thought.

Muslims and Mormons have a ton of similarties. We both believe in respect and love. Both belive in the abrahamic covenant. Both believe in strong family units. Both believe in humbly praying. Both believe in public displays of our religion.

Your thoughts are born out of ignorance, and you should maybe read a book... start with the bible, then work your way forward.

The gospel is like light. You can recognize its different then darkness no matter who you are. However the more you study it, the deeper it gets. Light has the qualities of waves, and beams. Light has the ability to distribute heat, and propel nutrients into animals and plants. individuals see light differently due to the rods and the cones in their eyes or the way God made them.

Allmosthumble... look to the light man. think about Jesus. Think about how he helped people no matter their station in life. His whole life was about service, healing, and growth. Your idea of projecting those teachings is they say they are a threat, so we should kill them all.

I just am blown away on your take on the gospel.

I am not even talking about Iraq. I am talking about a view on people that we believe God made, sent to that region of the world to be tested and tried to reach THEIR divine potential. But, you think, hmm i read they are a threat...

this was a bit of a rant... i dont feel any better.

darn.

[boyando]

I know it wasnt his idea... A lot of things are crazy about Iraq. I just think Biden's idea that he is proposing is the most logical and I havent really seen or read anything else that makes sense to me.

Before Saddam took over the Bath Party was the central governing body. Not religious group.

Funny how things change.

The next part of my post is directed at allmosthumble.

The idea bugged me enough, that I think I am now dumber.

Name a country that has talked another country into peace.

Wow that is painful.

We spurred this civil war. Iraq will not be at peace. America isnt at peace. We have horrible stats in regards to education, job security, new growth areas within the economy, crime, health care, and now because of the actions of our President, we now have a growing threat from people we use to consider and hold true as allies.

WHAT IS PEACE??? Killing other people because you think they might attack isnt peace, its global tyranny.

just a painful statement. the sentiment being kill them all, cause they are a threat??? Thats not an LDS thought, thats an extremist muslim thought.

Muslims and Mormons have a ton of similarties. We both believe in respect and love. Both belive in the abrahamic covenant. Both believe in strong family units. Both believe in humbly praying. Both believe in public displays of our religion.

Your thoughts are born out of ignorance, and you should maybe read a book... start with the bible, then work your way forward.

The gospel is like light. You can recognize its different then darkness no matter who you are. However the more you study it, the deeper it gets. Light has the qualities of waves, and beams. Light has the ability to distribute heat, and propel nutrients into animals and plants. individuals see light differently due to the rods and the cones in their eyes or the way God made them.

Allmosthumble... look to the light man. think about Jesus. Think about how he helped people no matter their station in life. His whole life was about service, healing, and growth. Your idea of projecting those teachings is they say they are a threat, so we should kill them all.

I just am blown away on your take on the gospel.

I am not even talking about Iraq. I am talking about a view on people that we believe God made, sent to that region of the world to be tested and tried to reach THEIR divine potential. But, you think, hmm i read they are a threat...

this was a bit of a rant... i dont feel any better.

darn.

m24az;

I thank you for your well thought out, rant. I know that you do not have negative things to say about me, even if you think that I am illiterate and have not read a book. Negative is not your style.

I still have not had my question answered, so maybe it would help if I rephrased it. In all the talks that Israel has had with it's neighbors, has there ever been lasting peace? Did the peace talks we were having, with Japan, before world war II, create lasting peace?

I'm sure that some one can point out just one, any one time that peace talks before the end of a war, have ended killing. I could be wrong and look forward to the answer. Just because I can't think of the time it worked doesn't mean that it won't work.

The one basic flaw in the peace talks concept is that it takes reasonable people to resolve a conflict. If these people who have perverted Islam are considered reasonable, than the rest of the world must be the insane ones. Are people who want to drive Israel into the sea, reasonable? Is convert or die, a reasonable request?

The concept that I, and all who think like me, want to kill everyone who might be a threat, is a lazy mans thought. And not a thought that becomes you, m24az.

Hugh Nibley pointed out how silly it was to be in WWII. Silly that we would let Hitler gain so much power. It was all spelled out in Mein Kampf. Every thing that we needed to know, about what Hitler wanted to do, was spelled out in detail. And yet we did nothing until it took millions of lives to end that war.

I fear that with or with out my words, the blind remain blind and the deaf do not hear anything that is not pleasing in there own ears. I do hope that we can end this war with as few lives, lost as possible. If you or anyone can show me how a political solution will save lives, I will stand hand in hand with that group. Heck, I might even sing Michael rowed the boat a shore. Until then, I stand behind the President and the troops who are giving there lives, for our wifes and our children and for our freedom.

Humbly yours - allmosthumble

I know it wasnt his idea... A lot of things are crazy about Iraq. I just think Biden's idea that he is proposing is the most logical and I havent really seen or read anything else that makes sense to me.

Before Saddam took over the Bath Party was the central governing body. Not religious group.

Funny how things change.

The next part of my post is directed at allmosthumble.

The idea bugged me enough, that I think I am now dumber.

Name a country that has talked another country into peace.

Wow that is painful.

We spurred this civil war. Iraq will not be at peace. America isnt at peace. We have horrible stats in regards to education, job security, new growth areas within the economy, crime, health care, and now because of the actions of our President, we now have a growing threat from people we use to consider and hold true as allies.

WHAT IS PEACE??? Killing other people because you think they might attack isnt peace, its global tyranny.

just a painful statement. the sentiment being kill them all, cause they are a threat??? Thats not an LDS thought, thats an extremist muslim thought.

Muslims and Mormons have a ton of similarties. We both believe in respect and love. Both belive in the abrahamic covenant. Both believe in strong family units. Both believe in humbly praying. Both believe in public displays of our religion.

Your thoughts are born out of ignorance, and you should maybe read a book... start with the bible, then work your way forward.

The gospel is like light. You can recognize its different then darkness no matter who you are. However the more you study it, the deeper it gets. Light has the qualities of waves, and beams. Light has the ability to distribute heat, and propel nutrients into animals and plants. individuals see light differently due to the rods and the cones in their eyes or the way God made them.

Allmosthumble... look to the light man. think about Jesus. Think about how he helped people no matter their station in life. His whole life was about service, healing, and growth. Your idea of projecting those teachings is they say they are a threat, so we should kill them all.

I just am blown away on your take on the gospel.

I am not even talking about Iraq. I am talking about a view on people that we believe God made, sent to that region of the world to be tested and tried to reach THEIR divine potential. But, you think, hmm i read they are a threat...

this was a bit of a rant... i dont feel any better.

darn.

m24az;

I thank you for your well thought out, rant. I know that you do not have negative things to say about me, even if you think that I am illiterate and have not read a book. Negative is not your style.

I still have not had my question answered, so maybe it would help if I rephrased it. In all the talks that Israel has had with it's neighbors, has there ever been lasting peace? Did the peace talks we were having, with Japan, before world war II, create lasting peace?

I'm sure that some one can point out just one, any one time that peace talks before the end of a war, have ended killing. I could be wrong and look forward to the answer. Just because I can't think of the time it worked doesn't mean that it won't work.

The one basic flaw in the peace talks concept is that it takes reasonable people to resolve a conflict. If these people who have perverted Islam are considered reasonable, than the rest of the world must be the insane ones. Are people who want to drive Israel into the sea, reasonable? Is convert or die, a reasonable request?

The concept that I, and all who think like me, want to kill everyone who might be a threat, is a lazy mans thought. And not a thought that becomes you, m24az.

Hugh Nibley pointed out how silly it was to be in WWII. Silly that we would let Hitler gain so much power. It was all spelled out in Mein Kampf. Every thing that we needed to know, about what Hitler wanted to do, was spelled out in detail. And yet we did nothing until it took millions of lives to end that war.

I fear that with or with out my words, the blind remain blind and the deaf do not hear anything that is not pleasing in there own ears. I do hope that we can end this war with as few lives, lost as possible. If you or anyone can show me how a political solution will save lives, I will stand hand in hand with that group. Heck, I might even sing Michael rowed the boat a shore. Until then, I stand behind the President and the troops who are giving there lives, for our wifes and our children and for our freedom.

Humbly yours - allmosthumble

[Traveler]

Just a note: When Buddhism was introduced into China - China was divided in to several areas controlled by war lords. China was in bitter war with itself. As China converted to Buddhism (the only religion in the modern world to not rely on violence to introduce itself) China was able to negotiate peace. I find it interesting that in WWI and WWII that the “Christian” nations entered into war against each other (Japan being the exception in WWII and the Ottoman Empire the exception in WWI) and that the Christians could not negotiate peace with each other.

I might add here that perhaps it is the attitude of most Christians on our modern times and not the non-Christian thinkers that is the problem of peace not being negotiable. Also keep in mind that Islam is not very good at peace negotiations either.

The Traveler

[boyando]

Just a note: When Buddhism was introduced into China - China was divided in to several areas controlled by war lords. China was in bitter war with itself. As China converted to Buddhism (the only religion in the modern world to not rely on violence to introduce itself) China was able to negotiate peace. I find it interesting that in WWI and WWII that the “Christian” nations entered into war against each other (Japan being the exception in WWII and the Ottoman Empire the exception in WWI) and that the Christians could not negotiate peace with each other.

I might add here that perhaps it is the attitude of most Christians on our modern times and not the non-Christian thinkers that is the problem of peace not being negotiable. Also keep in mind that Islam is not very good at peace negotiations either.

The Traveler

Thank You, Traveler, for showing me an example were peace can be negotiated. I may enjoy history, but don't know as much history as others.

Germany and Italy, were both what we would call a Christian nation when they entered into WWII, but I don't think they were using the cross as a reason to go to war. I think that these two governments were using the religion of power.

As far as I can tell there is no one reason that those who have perverted the religion of Islam, have taken this war, to the Christians and more especially, to Judah.

Just a few thoughts - allmosthumble