Another language thread, or, I'm a little ticked with the husband right now

[annewandering]

I am musing about attitudes about swearing...most church people say the kinds of things being said in this thread about how it is unnecessary etc. However, many people in the military and police (including church members) swear.

In the past, I would have thought that this had a lot to do with peer pressure...the military and the police are primarly men and swearing is not generally taboo. But given my recent experiences (I have changed my views on my personal swearing and I am not influenced by peers), no I wonder if military people, police and other groups I have not thought to identify...swear as a coping mechanism at times.

Any military, police, trauma survivors or therapists have any thoughts?

Does this apply also to football? I grew up in a nonswearing household. It wasnt even an activly going to church household either. One day at a high school football game I heard a man who was very well respected in the town and very active in the church swearing up a storm stalking up and down the sidelines. Other people would glance at him and smile etc. I was shocked. Still am. What kind of an example was that man to kids? To nonmembers? Oh yes we should do as we know not so much what we see? Easy to say but its just not a working idea or excuse.

I totally lost my respect for that man that day.

Perhaps he needed a way to work off stress. Isnt that why we are here in a way? To learn acceptable ways to deal with life? If swearing is a good way then how about drinking? It can sure relax a person. How about sleeping around? Nothing like sex to take some stress off a person. A little grass between friends?

So what do we do? I would say we find a better way. Take up jogging or boxing. I dont know. It depends on the person but that is what we do here. We find solutions to overcome our weaknesses and taking on another weakness doesnt seem to be a smart solution to me.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Does this apply also to football?

You are kidding right? Because you can't be seriously comparing football (or any other sport) to the sort of trauma that causes PTSD and other mental illnesses.

If you really need an answer then it's...No. You totally did not understand my point.

[annewandering]

You are kidding right? Because you can't be seriously comparing football (or any other sport) to the sort of trauma that causes PTSD and other mental illnesses.

If you really need an answer then it's...No. You totally did not understand my point.

I do understand your point and yes I am serious. Where do you draw the line on stress? Understand here that I do understand PTSD. I deal with two forms of it in my family every single day.

You are missing my point. My point is that we need to deal with the stress in ways that arent problems themselves. Some fool told my son that smoking a cigarette would help him deal with his stress. Yep. It did. Now he is having a terrible time quitting. How much better to have found a way that was positive.

Humor is a good way by the way. Football was a humorous point yet serious. Serious because it addresses the swearing problem and how it can cause trouble. It did for me. If you do not realize how serious people take football then you could a funny pill. :)

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

PTSD. I deal with two forms of it in my family every single day.

I don't know what you mean by two forms of it (you don't need to answer if it is too personal). It makes a difference in my mind if you are the person with PTSD, or you know someone who has it.

My point is that we need to deal with the stress in ways that arent problems themselves. Some fool told my son that smoking a cigarette would help him deal with his stress. Yep. It did. Now he is having a terrible time quitting. How much better to have found a way that was positive.

Swearing is not as serious as smoking...and so the comparison feels like hyperbole to me.

My whole point is that swearing is not as bad as some other coping mechanisms like smoking, drinking, cutting etc.

Humor is a good way by the way. Football was a humorous point yet serious.

There is some pain that is not alleviated by humor. There are times humor is appropriate and times it is not. If it works great, but I am thinking of times when it does not.

[annewandering]

My son was in Iraq and is disabled by his PTSD. My husband has another problem related but not called PTSD from severe childhood abuse.

Swearing is a sin. For the one committing it then its the most important sin to be concerned about. If they arent smoking then no problem there. I dont recall smoking actually being in the Ten Commandments but maybe I misread them? I absolutely do remember swearing being there.

[Vort]

Swearing is not as serious as smoking...and so the comparison feels like hyperbole to me. My whole point is that swearing is not as bad as some other coping mechanisms like smoking, drinking, cutting etc.

Not sure that I agree with this. Many times we think of swearing as "just words"; but then, gossip, false testimony, and other forms of verbal abuse are also "just words".

By their nature, swearing and cursing cheapen our language, coarsen the world around us, and portray the sacred as vulgar. I suspect that we do not understand how important clean and righteous communication is, or how damaging it is to pervert that communication.

[Bini]

Vort, great post and well said.

I have no doubt that using profanity may be a means of coping for some people, however, I agree with the above statement and in addition believe that when we allow ourselves to lose control to anger or self-pity, it is a disservice to us and everyone around us.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

I dont recall smoking actually being in the Ten Commandments but maybe I misread them? I absolutely do remember swearing being there.

Don't judge me because I sin differently than you do. But to clarify, I am NOT in talking about taking the Lord's name in vain. I don't do that, and I don't use the F-word ever. But I find some of the others to be a great release sometimes (I don't do it in front of people that will be offended.)

I am sorry about your husband and son...I wish I could talk to them about this issue though. No offense to you or anyone else that has commented, but I don't find advice from people that haven't "been there" helpful.

Vort and Bini...these are the typical things that I expect "church people" to say. That isn't bad or good, I used to feel the same way...but my perspective has changed. I am not advocating swearing, I simply don't see it in the black and white way I did before.

My attempt to give a more detaled response to Vort's comment helped me see more clearly how deeply this issue goes for me, and why I feel the way I do. I would like to explain that better, but it would make me way to vulnerable to judgement from well-meaning people that do not understand.

I appreciate the thoughts to far, but I was also really hoping to hear from others who have actually experienced trauma.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Oops...I did want to respond to these points..

Not sure that I agree with this. Many times we think of swearing as "just words"; but then, gossip, false testimony, and other forms of verbal abuse are also "just words".

Some people might make that justification, but that is not what I meant. I should clarify that I am not advocating swearing for everyone, but I do think that in limited circumstances it's usage is understandable. I find it helpful sometimes. BUT I do not approve of gossip, false testimony or verbal abuse...all these things hurt someone else.

when we allow ourselves to lose control to anger or self-pity, it is a disservice to us and everyone around us.

Bini, think about what you said here...when we ALLOW ourselves to LOSE CONTROL...those two concepts are opposites.

Self-pity is not what I am talking about here...

Remember that there are other "sins" that are a disservice to us and everyone around us...none of us are without sin. Which is worse, a sin that is born of pain, or a sin that has another root?

[annewandering]

Don't judge me because I sin differently than you do. But to clarify, I am NOT in talking about taking the Lord's name in vain. I don't do that, and I don't use the F-word ever. But I find some of the others to be a great release sometimes (I don't do it in front of people that will be offended.)

I am sorry about your husband and son...I wish I could talk to them about this issue though. No offense to you or anyone else that has commented, but I don't find advice from people that haven't "been there" helpful.

Vort and Bini...these are the typical things that I expect "church people" to say. That isn't bad or good, I used to feel the same way...but my perspective has changed. I am not advocating swearing, I simply don't see it in the black and white way I did before.

My attempt to give a more detaled response to Vort's comment helped me see more clearly how deeply this issue goes for me, and why I feel the way I do. I would like to explain that better, but it would make me way to vulnerable to judgement from well-meaning people that do not understand.

I appreciate the thoughts to far, but I was also really hoping to hear from others who have actually experienced trauma.

I will try to not be offended as I sit here on the bed by my husband rolled up into a fetal position having flashbacks and panic attacks and afraid to wake up. Did you know that when a loved ones suffers we suffer as well? I guess not. My husband has the blessing of forgetting. I do not. I remember his screams and cries of terror and desperation. Every day of my life. God blessed him to forget and me to remember so I know how and why he suffers.

Look up empathy. Its real.

[Bini]

Bini, think about what you said here...when we ALLOW ourselves to LOSE CONTROL...those two concepts are opposites.

Self-pity is not what I am talking about here...

Remember that there are other "sins" that are a disservice to us and everyone around us...none of us are without sin. Which is worse, a sin that is born of pain, or a sin that has another root?

Let me clarify on my previous post for you.

Everyone has agency and a choice in how they react to and interact with others. While we cannot control raw emotion, we can make an effort in how we express ourselves, and that doesn't mean that it will be easy or even executed in a pretty manner. The words that come out of our mouths are controllable (that's excluding individuals with disorders such as vocalised Tourette Syndrome). Now, if we are solely referring to individuals that suffer said disorder, or other disorders like Bipolar that cause mania and unpredictable behaviour, I agree that depending on the severity of the disorder individuals may not be accountable for their actions. Saying this, there ARE resources available for such individuals to aide them in improving their quality of life, they just need to say YES I want help.

Regarding "self-pity" that was just an example I used to reiterate that alongside anger, self-pity is just as destructive. And lastly, none of us are without sin, agreed. I never argued otherwise. My post, in the simplest of terms, translates to this: people are in control of their actions - and profanities are actions that can be controllable. In my earlier post, I believe I made it very clear that my husband and I both have a nasty habit of using profanities, though, it has got better. Point was - it can be managed and ideally - done away with entirely. And that is our goal we aim to achieve as our daughter grows up.

[Bini]

I appreciate the thoughts to far, but I was also really hoping to hear from others who have actually experienced trauma.

I just wanted to add that this is a very presumptuous statement, implying that none of us have ever experienced trauma, and therefore are inadequately answering your questions. I've been around this board long enough to know that this notion is inaccurate. At any rate, trauma (no matter how painful it is) is not a free pass for being un-Christ like. None of us are perfect, and as long as we make an effort to live righteously, we're on track.

[Backroads]

Bini, I'm thinking about showing the husband some of your posts. You've have some very good thoughts.

[Vort]

No offense to you or anyone else that has commented, but I don't find advice from people that haven't "been there" helpful.

The problem is that you have no idea where we have been. Even if you knew that we had not suffered through rape or other specific types of abuse (which you do not), you don't know what experiences we have had that might make our viewpoint every bit as valid as, or perhaps even more valid than, yours. So dismissing someone's opinion because you don't think he or she has suffered enough to make their opinion valid probably is not the wisest course of action.

Vort and Bini...these are the typical things that I expect "church people" to say.

I appreciate the compliment.

That isn't bad or good, I used to feel the same way...but my perspective has changed. I am not advocating swearing, I simply don't see it in the black and white way I did before.

Perhaps the problem here is not our expressions, but rather your perceptions of them. I don't see either of us as having expressed "black and white" opinions, except that cursing and swearing is not a good thing.

I would like to explain that better, but it would make me way to vulnerable to judgement from well-meaning people that do not understand.

It is wise not to cast your pearls of knowledge before swine who cannot or do not understand them. But you should consider that it is perhaps your judgment that is flawed in this case instead of the judgment of others.

I appreciate the thoughts to far, but I was also really hoping to hear from others who have actually experienced trauma.

I guarantee you, Bini and I have each experienced plenty of trauma.

I should clarify that I am not advocating swearing for everyone, but I do think that in limited circumstances it's usage is understandable.

I would go a step further, and say that swearing is very often understandable. But "understandable" does not mean "justifiable" or "a good thing to do".

BUT I do not approve of gossip, false testimony or verbal abuse...all these things hurt someone else.

Those who dump raw sewage into the street pollute the environment in which we all live, which indirectly does harm to people. Similarly, it could be said that those who swear pollute the verbal and aural environment in which we live, thus harming all who hear them.

Remember that there are other "sins" that are a disservice to us and everyone around us...none of us are without sin. Which is worse, a sin that is born of pain, or a sin that has another root?

I don't know. But the point, at least for me, is not to rank sins in their order of badness. I just think that we would do well to avoid swearing (cursing, being vulgar) at all times and in all cases.

Are there possible exceptions, cases where using vulgar, bawdy, and/or profane language is helpful and Godly? Perhaps. I can't think of any, but I concede it's possible such might exist. But that would be a very narrow special case, and would not invalidate the general rule to avoid all such evil speech.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Thanks everyone for your responses.

I feel like we are really not understanding one another though. I don't know how to clarify, and I don't even know if it is possible.

First of all, I apologize to Annewandering and any others that I offended unintentionally. This thread turned unexpectedly emotional for me as well.

Second I will say this and I hope it will clear up the misunderstanding....

When I said that I really hoped to hear from others who had experenced trauma, I meant that before I started dealing with repressed memories I held a certain point of view that was in line with most of the comments here...but now I find myself in a very vulnerable position trying to sort out my old beliefs and come to some new understandings.

I have received much well-intended advice from people in real life who admit they have not experienced trauma...along the lines of "just let it go" and "forgive"....which I do not find helpful.

What I really hoped for, and I apologize for my weakness in not being able to state it more clearly...was for someone to who understands to validate my pain, and perhaps tell me how they dealt with it.

My husband is a wonderful support and I know this is hard on him too. I apologize to him frequently for just that very thing...he tells me I have nothing to apologize for.

I hope that clarifies the misunderstandings.

About empathy...I could use a bit of it myself. I started this line of discussion because...I need to work out some issues within myself...it didn't work out the way I planned. I don't feel that I got any empathy or help, but instead judgement which is (sorry if this offends but it is honestly how I feel) what I have come to expect from church people.

[Vort]

For the record, you have not offended me, and I hope I have not offended you.

[Vort]

I don't feel that I got any empathy or help, but instead judgement which is (sorry if this offends but it is honestly how I feel) what I have come to expect from church people.

Since you explicitly compared my response to that of "church people" (quotes and all), I can only conclude that you found what I wrote judgmental. Apparently, my hope not to have offended you was vain. I am sorry you felt this way, but I think a rereading of what I wrote will demonstrate that I was making no personal judgments at all. Rather, I was offering my judgment on the topic of using filthy, profane, and vulgar language -- a judgment that I stand by. My judgment of people who use such language is another thing entirely, a topic which I believe I have not broached on this thread.

[Guest LiterateParakeet]

Since you explicitly compared my response to that of "church people" (quotes and all), I can only conclude that you found what I wrote judgmental. Apparently, my hope not to have offended you was vain. I am sorry you felt this way, but I think a rereading of what I wrote will demonstrate that I was making no personal judgments at all. Rather, I was offering my judgment on the topic of using filthy, profane, and vulgar language -- a judgment that I stand by. My judgment of people who use such language is another thing entirely, a topic which I believe I have not broached on this thread.

Thanks for your explanation.

I apologize for the misunderstanding. I was just trying to say that before my own personal spiritual earthquake, from which I am still trying to rebuild, that I felt the same way.